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	<title>Comments on: Pissing off the other crowd</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: stevehar</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/comment-page-2/#comment-292580</link>
		<dc:creator>stevehar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:19:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13378#comment-292580</guid>
		<description>Consider the need for a new distinction.
 
The antonym of liberal is not conservative but reactionary or even better revanchist
read Tanenbaum&#039;s book.

So: 
Reactionaries flame-out, then die. Let 100 flowers bloom</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Consider the need for a new distinction.</p>

	<p>The antonym of liberal is not conservative but reactionary or even better revanchist<br />
read Tanenbaum&#8217;s book.</p>

	<p>So:<br />
Reactionaries flame-out, then die. Let 100 flowers bloom</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ano</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/comment-page-2/#comment-292537</link>
		<dc:creator>Ano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 18:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13378#comment-292537</guid>
		<description>&quot;Only cowards support torture&quot;

I think that hits &#039;em where they live.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Only cowards support torture&#8221;</p>

	<p>I think that hits &#8216;em where they live.</p>
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		<title>By: david</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/comment-page-2/#comment-292439</link>
		<dc:creator>david</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 01:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13378#comment-292439</guid>
		<description>&quot;PJ O’Rourke, Tom Wolfe and Dennis Miller&quot;

Comedy club nightmares. Wolfe&#039;s the worst, but the other two are somehow equally insufferable. Insufferable, I hasten to add earnestly and seriously, because they are not funny. Although Dennis Miller had a decent Joan of Arc joke a while back.

Is there a sufferability limit below which there is no measure?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;PJ O&#8217;Rourke, Tom Wolfe and Dennis Miller&#8221;</p>

	<p>Comedy club nightmares. Wolfe&#8217;s the worst, but the other two are somehow equally insufferable. Insufferable, I hasten to add earnestly and seriously, because they are not funny. Although Dennis Miller had a decent Joan of Arc joke a while back.</p>

	<p>Is there a sufferability limit below which there is no measure?</p>
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		<title>By: Sock Puppet of the Great Satan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/comment-page-2/#comment-292408</link>
		<dc:creator>Sock Puppet of the Great Satan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13378#comment-292408</guid>
		<description>&quot;On the liberal side, commentators like Michael Moore and Jeanne Garofolo are more angry than funny.&quot;

Yeah. That Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert, you couldn&#039;t get more unfunny talentless hacks, eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;On the liberal side, commentators like Michael Moore and Jeanne Garofolo are more angry than funny.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Yeah. That Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert, you couldn&#8217;t get more unfunny talentless hacks, eh?</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/comment-page-2/#comment-292279</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Armstrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 02:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13378#comment-292279</guid>
		<description>To get back to the original question:  The reason it&#039;s more fun to annoy liberals is that they tend to be more earnest and take themselves more seriously.  Exceptions exist, of course, but in general it&#039;s true. Not too hard to get a liberal to start sputtering in outrage.  Not nearly as much fun to see a conservative roll his eyes. I&#039;m sure liberals feel that the opposite is true, but PJ O&#039;Rourke, Tom Wolfe and Dennis Miller beg to differ. 

On the liberal side, commentators like Michael Moore and Jeanne Garofolo are more angry than funny. They&#039;re the Glenn Becks of the left, dealing in self-righteousness rather than humor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To get back to the original question:  The reason it&#8217;s more fun to annoy liberals is that they tend to be more earnest and take themselves more seriously.  Exceptions exist, of course, but in general it&#8217;s true. Not too hard to get a liberal to start sputtering in outrage.  Not nearly as much fun to see a conservative roll his eyes. I&#8217;m sure liberals feel that the opposite is true, but <span class="caps">PJ O</span>&#8217;Rourke, Tom Wolfe and Dennis Miller beg to differ.</p>

	<p>On the liberal side, commentators like Michael Moore and Jeanne Garofolo are more angry than funny. They&#8217;re the Glenn Becks of the left, dealing in self-righteousness rather than humor.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Lillard</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/comment-page-2/#comment-292255</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Lillard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13378#comment-292255</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t resist posting an oldie from Texas.   I saw a photo during my time at Texas A&amp;M of a popular bumper sticker from the 70&#039;s during the oil crisis.   &quot;Drive 70,  Freeze a Yankee.&quot;  
You have to love that kind of animosity.  Now that I live away,  it is almost quaint.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I can&#8217;t resist posting an oldie from Texas.   I saw a photo during my time at Texas A&#038;M of a popular bumper sticker from the 70&#8217;s during the oil crisis.   &#8220;Drive 70,  Freeze a Yankee.&#8221;<br />
You have to love that kind of animosity.  Now that I live away,  it is almost quaint.</p>
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		<title>By: michael e sullivan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/comment-page-2/#comment-292244</link>
		<dc:creator>michael e sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:37:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13378#comment-292244</guid>
		<description>Conservatives don&#039;t much like the rear of my wife&#039;s car either, which shows a darwin fish facing a plain ichthus with a little red heart drawn above the meeting point.  But it throws them a little.  And a lot of people *love* it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Conservatives don&#8217;t much like the rear of my wife&#8217;s car either, which shows a darwin fish facing a plain ichthus with a little red heart drawn above the meeting point.  But it throws them a little.  And a lot of people <strong>love</strong> it.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/comment-page-2/#comment-292204</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13378#comment-292204</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I am utterly convinced that an important component of conservatism (not necessarily a trait shared by all conservatives) is a character that is authoritarian, conformist, and has an admiration for brutality.&lt;/i&gt;

For more than you ever wanted to know about that personality type, see here:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Authoritarians&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I am utterly convinced that an important component of conservatism (not necessarily a trait shared by all conservatives) is a character that is authoritarian, conformist, and has an admiration for brutality.</i></p>

	<p>For more than you ever wanted to know about that personality type, see here:<br />
<a href="http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/" rel="nofollow">The Authoritarians</a></p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Joshua Holmes</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/comment-page-2/#comment-292169</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Holmes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 03:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13378#comment-292169</guid>
		<description>Having spent a lot of time around conservatives - raised a fundamentalist Christian - I can tell you that nothing angers a conservative more than a proud association with liberalism. Conservatives &lt;i&gt;hate&lt;/i&gt; the COEXIST bumpersticker, &quot;Envision World Peace&quot;, the Darwin fish, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Having spent a lot of time around conservatives &#8211; raised a fundamentalist Christian &#8211; I can tell you that nothing angers a conservative more than a proud association with liberalism. Conservatives <i>hate</i> the <span class="caps">COEXIST</span> bumpersticker, &#8220;Envision World Peace&#8221;, the Darwin fish, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith M Ellis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/comment-page-2/#comment-292152</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith M Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 23:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13378#comment-292152</guid>
		<description>Salient&#039;s made a lot of good points.  Whether teasing is the same as bullying is not as important as the fact that both are inherently aggressive.

This discussion answers some questions I&#039;ve had lately concerning an old high school friend of mine.  Back then, I saw him as a kindred spirit—both of us tended to be iconoclastic, we questioned authority, we were sarcastic.  Like most teenagers, except more so, and more counter-culture.  If I had been asked to guess back then what his politics would be thirty years later, I&#039;d have supposed they&#039;d be left-of-center because of his contrarian tendencies.  But, as you&#039;ve no doubt guessed, he&#039;s a Fox News watching &quot;libertarian&quot; who spends a lot of his time finding ways to annoy liberals.

He annoys me, in fact.  While it seems perfectly obvious to me that good Facebook netiquette is to refrain from posting antagonistic comments on the political posts by friends who hold opposing views, he clearly enjoys doing so in response to his (few) liberal friends&#039; posts.  He likes to annoy people—it&#039;s a clear line from our high school days to here.  It&#039;s just that back then, I wasn&#039;t one of his targets.

There well may be the sort of sorting by temperament in politics that salient proposes, but, if so, it&#039;s a weak sorting.  Clearly, as NECLC&#039;s comment indicates, there are many people on the left who feel that deliberate belligerence is an essential component of political action (whether or not they justify it as a necessary response to their opponents&#039; belligerence).  I find it very interesting that NECLC and people like him use the very same kind of language, and express the very same brand of contempt, against non-belligerent liberals as do belligerent conservatives against all liberals.  For them, politics is not policy, it&#039;s conquest—and those allies who fail to understand this are part of the problem and not part of the solution.  You can see this played out every day in the comments in the liberal blogosphere.

Even if there&#039;s a lot of what I&#039;m calling &quot;belligerent liberals&quot;, I still think that salient is on to something.  Maybe it&#039;s the case that the political culture has changed enough such that strong conservative positions are provocative today when they were innocuous thirty years ago.  But I think that a lot of today&#039;s conservative provocateurs would have been the same way back then.  Instead of being contrarian, they would have simply belligerently enforced the &lt;i&gt;status quo&lt;/i&gt;.  They would be the ones making fun of the hippies on the street.  I am utterly convinced that an important &lt;i&gt;component&lt;/i&gt; of conservatism (not necessarily a trait shared by all conservatives) is a character that is authoritarian, conformist, and has an admiration for brutality.  People with those temperaments may find their way to the left—but only in certain places and times when that characterizes that specific manifestation of the left.  In more general terms, there&#039;s something about that temperament that is more associated with the right than with the left.  And thus these sorts of bumper stickers are more frequently targeted against liberals, than against conservatives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Salient&#8217;s made a lot of good points.  Whether teasing is the same as bullying is not as important as the fact that both are inherently aggressive.</p>

	<p>This discussion answers some questions I&#8217;ve had lately concerning an old high school friend of mine.  Back then, I saw him as a kindred spirit&#8212;both of us tended to be iconoclastic, we questioned authority, we were sarcastic.  Like most teenagers, except more so, and more counter-culture.  If I had been asked to guess back then what his politics would be thirty years later, I&#8217;d have supposed they&#8217;d be left-of-center because of his contrarian tendencies.  But, as you&#8217;ve no doubt guessed, he&#8217;s a Fox News watching &#8220;libertarian&#8221; who spends a lot of his time finding ways to annoy liberals.</p>

	<p>He annoys me, in fact.  While it seems perfectly obvious to me that good Facebook netiquette is to refrain from posting antagonistic comments on the political posts by friends who hold opposing views, he clearly enjoys doing so in response to his (few) liberal friends&#8217; posts.  He likes to annoy people&#8212;it&#8217;s a clear line from our high school days to here.  It&#8217;s just that back then, I wasn&#8217;t one of his targets.</p>

	<p>There well may be the sort of sorting by temperament in politics that salient proposes, but, if so, it&#8217;s a weak sorting.  Clearly, as <span class="caps">NECLC</span>&#8217;s comment indicates, there are many people on the left who feel that deliberate belligerence is an essential component of political action (whether or not they justify it as a necessary response to their opponents&#8217; belligerence).  I find it very interesting that <span class="caps">NECLC</span> and people like him use the very same kind of language, and express the very same brand of contempt, against non-belligerent liberals as do belligerent conservatives against all liberals.  For them, politics is not policy, it&#8217;s conquest&#8212;and those allies who fail to understand this are part of the problem and not part of the solution.  You can see this played out every day in the comments in the liberal blogosphere.</p>

	<p>Even if there&#8217;s a lot of what I&#8217;m calling &#8220;belligerent liberals&#8221;, I still think that salient is on to something.  Maybe it&#8217;s the case that the political culture has changed enough such that strong conservative positions are provocative today when they were innocuous thirty years ago.  But I think that a lot of today&#8217;s conservative provocateurs would have been the same way back then.  Instead of being contrarian, they would have simply belligerently enforced the <i>status quo</i>.  They would be the ones making fun of the hippies on the street.  I am utterly convinced that an important <i>component</i> of conservatism (not necessarily a trait shared by all conservatives) is a character that is authoritarian, conformist, and has an admiration for brutality.  People with those temperaments may find their way to the left&#8212;but only in certain places and times when that characterizes that specific manifestation of the left.  In more general terms, there&#8217;s something about that temperament that is more associated with the right than with the left.  And thus these sorts of bumper stickers are more frequently targeted against liberals, than against conservatives.</p>
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		<title>By: alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/comment-page-2/#comment-292091</link>
		<dc:creator>alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13378#comment-292091</guid>
		<description>@72: a swift kick in the &#039;nads would have done the trick... It doesn&#039;t matter &lt;i&gt;what&lt;/i&gt; he says afterwards about libruls, he&#039;s still spent several minutes on the floor trying to remember how to breathe. And for someone like that, that&#039;s not easy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@72: a swift kick in the &#8216;nads would have done the trick&#8230; It doesn&#8217;t matter <i>what</i> he says afterwards about libruls, he&#8217;s still spent several minutes on the floor trying to remember how to breathe. And for someone like that, that&#8217;s not easy.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/comment-page-2/#comment-292086</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:53:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13378#comment-292086</guid>
		<description>Gosh, bumper stickers pathetic and annoying? Next you&#039;ll be telling us that furry dice hanging from your windscreen are not very tasteful...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Gosh, bumper stickers pathetic and annoying? Next you&#8217;ll be telling us that furry dice hanging from your windscreen are not very tasteful&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Hyde</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/comment-page-2/#comment-292083</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Hyde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13378#comment-292083</guid>
		<description>&quot;Or, as the story has Lyndon Johnson arguing, it’s better to kick off the conversation in a way that forces the other guy to deny that he’s a pig-fucker.&quot;

In the late sixties my father passed along similar advise, saying he&#039;d read Mao&#039;s advise to being all negotiations by labeling your opponent a running dog.

Polarizing bummer stickers need to address both sides; one side should nod, smile and think &quot;yep, certainly some true to that!&quot; while the opposing side twists up their face, sputters, sighs and launches into a long tedious explanation why the joke isn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Or, as the story has Lyndon Johnson arguing, it&#8217;s better to kick off the conversation in a way that forces the other guy to deny that he&#8217;s a pig-fucker.&#8221;</p>

	<p>In the late sixties my father passed along similar advise, saying he&#8217;d read Mao&#8217;s advise to being all negotiations by labeling your opponent a running dog.</p>

	<p>Polarizing bummer stickers need to address both sides; one side should nod, smile and think &#8220;yep, certainly some true to that!&#8221; while the opposing side twists up their face, sputters, sighs and launches into a long tedious explanation why the joke isn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/comment-page-2/#comment-292074</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13378#comment-292074</guid>
		<description>The problem is that conservatives are only annoying the strawman liberals in their heads. Coming up with an earnest liberal response is like trying to treat a schizophrenic by convincing all his other personalities to go on vacation so you can change the locks while they&#039;re out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The problem is that conservatives are only annoying the strawman liberals in their heads. Coming up with an earnest liberal response is like trying to treat a schizophrenic by convincing all his other personalities to go on vacation so you can change the locks while they&#8217;re out.</p>
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		<title>By: Sock Puppet of the Great Satan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/18/pissing-off-the-other-crowd/comment-page-2/#comment-292072</link>
		<dc:creator>Sock Puppet of the Great Satan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:24:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13378#comment-292072</guid>
		<description>&#039;The poster he was hanging at the time bore a pretty vicious slur which I don’t remember. He saw me reading it and tapped me on the shoulder and said, “don’t you love it?” (He could have seen from my expression that I was stung.) I remember exhale-sighing and saying, not directly to him, “unbelievable, what the hell, dude.” Falling intonation, nothing threatening.

This made him quite amused. He said, “What, you want to make something of it, b***h?” He tossed the envelope of posters aside, put up his fists like a boxer, and smirked. I had no idea what to make of that, backed away a couple steps, palms up, saying, “whoa, whoa, whoa,” etc. He snickered (or whatever you call it when people make a contempuous laugh that comes out as a “tih” sound) and said, “pussy.” Picked up his poster envelope, walked away, turned and called out something like “call me when you’re ready to stick up for yourself and defend your country.”&#039;

Yeah Salient, but if you had clocked him one, he&#039;d be whining on the whatever the equivalent of NRO was then about liberals being intolerant of dissenting opinions.  You can&#039;t win with these folks.

In general, I find all political bumperstickers annoying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8216;The poster he was hanging at the time bore a pretty vicious slur which I don&#8217;t remember. He saw me reading it and tapped me on the shoulder and said, &#8220;don&#8217;t you love it?&#8221; (He could have seen from my expression that I was stung.) I remember exhale-sighing and saying, not directly to him, &#8220;unbelievable, what the hell, dude.&#8221; Falling intonation, nothing threatening.</p>

	<p>This made him quite amused. He said, &#8220;What, you want to make something of it, b***h?&#8221; He tossed the envelope of posters aside, put up his fists like a boxer, and smirked. I had no idea what to make of that, backed away a couple steps, palms up, saying, &#8220;whoa, whoa, whoa,&#8221; etc. He snickered (or whatever you call it when people make a contempuous laugh that comes out as a &#8220;tih&#8221; sound) and said, &#8220;pussy.&#8221; Picked up his poster envelope, walked away, turned and called out something like &#8220;call me when you&#8217;re ready to stick up for yourself and defend your country.&#8221;&#8217;</p>

	<p>Yeah Salient, but if you had clocked him one, he&#8217;d be whining on the whatever the equivalent of <span class="caps">NRO</span> was then about liberals being intolerant of dissenting opinions.  You can&#8217;t win with these folks.</p>

	<p>In general, I find all political bumperstickers annoying.</p>
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