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	<title>Comments on: The path to tenure begins in the first year of graduate school</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:49:20 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: nona mouse</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/comment-page-3/#comment-292760</link>
		<dc:creator>nona mouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 04:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13397#comment-292760</guid>
		<description>I think I wasn&#039;t clear. Matt, I was trying to ridicule a dumbass attitude I had in my early twenties. I wasn&#039;t endorsing that attitude. I reported it as another obstacle for some in using Ezster&#039;s good advice. It might have been mine, besides my professional ineptness. (Most likely, I had this view because I wasn&#039;t able to adapt to the professional aspect of the academic world very well. If I&#039;d fleshed out the story I would have explained I was concealing a motive less pure back then--it was a way to cope. I was terrified in the first few years of  grad school and light years away from thinking about tenure). 

Chris, I think people need the advice Eszter&#039;s offering.  Certain comments here suggest an interesting thing about good advice: For some, there are various unfortunate barriers to making good use of it. That was my main point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think I wasn&#8217;t clear. Matt, I was trying to ridicule a dumbass attitude I had in my early twenties. I wasn&#8217;t endorsing that attitude. I reported it as another obstacle for some in using Ezster&#8217;s good advice. It might have been mine, besides my professional ineptness. (Most likely, I had this view because I wasn&#8217;t able to adapt to the professional aspect of the academic world very well. If I&#8217;d fleshed out the story I would have explained I was concealing a motive less pure back then&#8212;it was a way to cope. I was terrified in the first few years of  grad school and light years away from thinking about tenure).</p>

	<p>Chris, I think people need the advice Eszter&#8217;s offering.  Certain comments here suggest an interesting thing about good advice: For some, there are various unfortunate barriers to making good use of it. That was my main point.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/comment-page-3/#comment-292653</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:17:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13397#comment-292653</guid>
		<description>Thanks Eszter for the &lt;i&gt;Dig-Your-Well-Before-You-Are-Thirsty&lt;/i&gt; advice</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks Eszter for the <i>Dig-Your-Well-Before-You-Are-Thirsty</i> advice</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/comment-page-3/#comment-292641</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13397#comment-292641</guid>
		<description>Not to put words in his mouth, but Dsquared works in the business world and has said things somewhat like what I just said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Not to put words in his mouth, but Dsquared works in the business world and has said things somewhat like what I just said.</p>
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		<title>By: Moby Hick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/comment-page-3/#comment-292639</link>
		<dc:creator>Moby Hick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13397#comment-292639</guid>
		<description>Headhunter.  That&#039;s an idea.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Headhunter.  That&#8217;s an idea.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/comment-page-3/#comment-292633</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13397#comment-292633</guid>
		<description>As I remember (I&#039;m sort of merging several stories)  she went to one of the head-hunting agencies and was interviewed, where she explained what she could do in terms of what she had learned in the past. She got credit for being fluent in Arabic even though it was irrelevant to the job she eventually got, because it showed motivation and persistence.  Being able to research, organize material, and make effective written and oral presentations was valued.

She had to throw herself into the new job -- it was quite demanding, she wasn&#039;t just dropping down to something easier. She had to reeducate herself in terms of the needs of the job.

I think that one key is convincing the headhunters that you really want the new job and aren&#039;t just desperate. Giving yourself credit for what you&#039;re able to do is important -- for example ability to write effectively is really quite rare, and while computer literacy is pretty widespread now, not a lot of people have mastered  some of the sophisticated software packages. One guy used his Pol Sci  stat-computer skills analyizing  billings his clients received to find overcharges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As I remember (I&#8217;m sort of merging several stories)  she went to one of the head-hunting agencies and was interviewed, where she explained what she could do in terms of what she had learned in the past. She got credit for being fluent in Arabic even though it was irrelevant to the job she eventually got, because it showed motivation and persistence.  Being able to research, organize material, and make effective written and oral presentations was valued.</p>

	<p>She had to throw herself into the new job&#8212;it was quite demanding, she wasn&#8217;t just dropping down to something easier. She had to reeducate herself in terms of the needs of the job.</p>

	<p>I think that one key is convincing the headhunters that you really want the new job and aren&#8217;t just desperate. Giving yourself credit for what you&#8217;re able to do is important&#8212;for example ability to write effectively is really quite rare, and while computer literacy is pretty widespread now, not a lot of people have mastered  some of the sophisticated software packages. One guy used his Pol Sci  stat-computer skills analyizing  billings his clients received to find overcharges.</p>
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		<title>By: Academe....urgh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/comment-page-3/#comment-292531</link>
		<dc:creator>Academe....urgh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13397#comment-292531</guid>
		<description>Actually John, has your friend got any advice? I have a PhD from a world class university and some highly regarded publications, unfortunately I find academe an utter bore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Actually John, has your friend got any advice? I have a PhD from a world class university and some highly regarded publications, unfortunately I find academe an utter bore.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/comment-page-3/#comment-292519</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13397#comment-292519</guid>
		<description>I actually talked to my ABD friend and she verifies that things are going well, though not perfectly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I actually talked to my <span class="caps">ABD</span> friend and she verifies that things are going well, though not perfectly.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/comment-page-3/#comment-292502</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:36:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13397#comment-292502</guid>
		<description>P.S. I should have noted that the degree continues to be valuable to me (both as a credential and for the mental habits developed in the course of acquiring it) in my present career, so I&#039;m another data point for the usefulness of Ph.D. training outside academia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>P.S. I should have noted that the degree continues to be valuable to me (both as a credential and for the mental habits developed in the course of acquiring it) in my present career, so I&#8217;m another data point for the usefulness of Ph.D. training outside academia.</p>
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		<title>By: Moby Hick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/comment-page-3/#comment-292491</link>
		<dc:creator>Moby Hick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 13:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13397#comment-292491</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I know an ABD who seems to be doing well in this context.&lt;/i&gt;

That would describe me also (for certain values of &#039;doing well&#039;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I know an <span class="caps">ABD</span> who seems to be doing well in this context.</i></p>

	<p>That would describe me also (for certain values of &#8216;doing well&#8217;).</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/comment-page-3/#comment-292489</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 13:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13397#comment-292489</guid>
		<description>They say that PhDs from top schools who are unemployable in their profession are starting to be recruited by business for areas (unrelated to their &quot;field&quot;) where research skills, analytic skills, writing skills, and speaking skills are useful.  I know an ABD who seems to be doing well in this context.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>They say that PhDs from top schools who are unemployable in their profession are starting to be recruited by business for areas (unrelated to their &#8220;field&#8221;) where research skills, analytic skills, writing skills, and speaking skills are useful.  I know an <span class="caps">ABD</span> who seems to be doing well in this context.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/comment-page-3/#comment-292487</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 13:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13397#comment-292487</guid>
		<description>Even though I didn&#039;t ultimately stick in academia, reading this thread is making me very grateful that my Ph.D. program (at Northwestern, in what was then the recently formed Dept. of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology on the Evanston campus) was infinitely more humane and supportive than some of the ones being described here. I can still look back on that time in my life with genuine pleasure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Even though I didn&#8217;t ultimately stick in academia, reading this thread is making me very grateful that my Ph.D. program (at Northwestern, in what was then the recently formed Dept. of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology on the Evanston campus) was infinitely more humane and supportive than some of the ones being described here. I can still look back on that time in my life with genuine pleasure.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/comment-page-2/#comment-292485</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 13:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13397#comment-292485</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Everything she said was good and it will make the world a marginally better place.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, as I implied, I don&#039;t think that is necessarily true. For example, I&#039;m not sure that a world in which lots of people are worrying about how to get tenure in the the first year of their Masters is obviously a better world than one which only a few are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Everything she said was good and it will make the world a marginally better place.</i></p>

	<p>Well, as I implied, I don&#8217;t think that is necessarily true. For example, I&#8217;m not sure that a world in which lots of people are worrying about how to get tenure in the the first year of their Masters is obviously a better world than one which only a few are.</p>
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		<title>By: Salient</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/comment-page-2/#comment-292484</link>
		<dc:creator>Salient</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 13:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13397#comment-292484</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But grad school is an abbatoir designed to decimate the entering grad students&lt;/i&gt;

Insofar as you&#039;re correct (my university&#039;s program really does seem designed to be supportive and help every student succeed), I agree that this is a fairly stupid way to design an educational system.

There&#039;s a lot of expertise (even just &quot;how to learn a specific way of thinking&quot; expertise) being gained by graduate school students that I imagine goes to waste. You&#039;d think our society would be able to put those people to good use so there isn&#039;t this absurd overcrowding for academic jobs, but nooo...

You just can&#039;t tell me the world doesn&#039;t have any use for lots of people with the skill set developed by pursuing a doctoral degree, who have developed strategies for learning a &quot;way of thinking,&quot; for familiarizing themselves with existing research and contributing specific new research, etc.

Maybe market economies just suck at human resource allocation. :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But grad school is an abbatoir designed to decimate the entering grad students</i></p>

	<p>Insofar as you&#8217;re correct (my university&#8217;s program really does seem designed to be supportive and help every student succeed), I agree that this is a fairly stupid way to design an educational system.</p>

	<p>There&#8217;s a lot of expertise (even just &#8220;how to learn a specific way of thinking&#8221; expertise) being gained by graduate school students that I imagine goes to waste. You&#8217;d think our society would be able to put those people to good use so there isn&#8217;t this absurd overcrowding for academic jobs, but nooo&#8230;</p>

	<p>You just can&#8217;t tell me the world doesn&#8217;t have any use for lots of people with the skill set developed by pursuing a doctoral degree, who have developed strategies for learning a &#8220;way of thinking,&#8221; for familiarizing themselves with existing research and contributing specific new research, etc.</p>

	<p>Maybe market economies just suck at human resource allocation. :P</p>
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		<title>By: Salient</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/comment-page-2/#comment-292482</link>
		<dc:creator>Salient</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 13:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13397#comment-292482</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Steve, I wondered about that but I think that since it is impossible for people to become equally good at those things it is still unfair.&lt;/i&gt;

I get what you mean, but disagree that it counts against Eszter&#039;s efforts. This is because I figure that transparency is always fairer than obliqueness, and efforts to improve transparency are always good.

Exceptions exist, and of course improving transparency doesn&#039;t automatically improve the other unfairness or the inequality in a system or structure, but I think it&#039;s always better for more people to better understand how something currently works.

Maybe by making these expectations and assumptions explicit and openly and widely acknowledged, more will be done by the next generation of academics to change the least fair expectations and assumptions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Steve, I wondered about that but I think that since it is impossible for people to become equally good at those things it is still unfair.</i></p>

	<p>I get what you mean, but disagree that it counts against Eszter&#8217;s efforts. This is because I figure that transparency is always fairer than obliqueness, and efforts to improve transparency are always good.</p>

	<p>Exceptions exist, and of course improving transparency doesn&#8217;t automatically improve the other unfairness or the inequality in a system or structure, but I think it&#8217;s always better for more people to better understand how something currently works.</p>

	<p>Maybe by making these expectations and assumptions explicit and openly and widely acknowledged, more will be done by the next generation of academics to change the least fair expectations and assumptions.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/19/the-path-to-tenure-begins-in-the-first-year-of-graduate-school/comment-page-2/#comment-292481</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:59:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13397#comment-292481</guid>
		<description>The behind the scenes advantages (like having Irving Kristol for Pa, or having access to Kripke&#039;s unpublsihes papers, or just knowing people) will still be there.

I want to step back from the anti-Eszter interpretation of what I started off saying, which is not an unreasonable one on the face of it. I&#039;m saying what I always say when this kind of thing comes up. Everything she said was good and it will make the world a marginally better place. 

But grad school is an abbatoir designed to decimate the entering grad students (actually worse than decimate, which is only 10%, according to some interpretations at least), and a lot of people don&#039;t realize that when they go in and have trouble getting used to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The behind the scenes advantages (like having Irving Kristol for Pa, or having access to Kripke&#8217;s unpublsihes papers, or just knowing people) will still be there.</p>

	<p>I want to step back from the anti-Eszter interpretation of what I started off saying, which is not an unreasonable one on the face of it. I&#8217;m saying what I always say when this kind of thing comes up. Everything she said was good and it will make the world a marginally better place.</p>

	<p>But grad school is an abbatoir designed to decimate the entering grad students (actually worse than decimate, which is only 10%, according to some interpretations at least), and a lot of people don&#8217;t realize that when they go in and have trouble getting used to it.</p>
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