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	<title>Comments on: Bookblogging: Implications of micro-based macro</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:24:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/comment-page-1/#comment-292695</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 20:17:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13440#comment-292695</guid>
		<description>Cool!

My preferred term would be: human ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Cool!</p>

	<p>My preferred term would be: human ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/comment-page-1/#comment-292685</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:52:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13440#comment-292685</guid>
		<description>@12 I absolutely agree. Bounded rationality is the only kind we have, so we&#039;d better not shun it. And a fair bit of my own work has been to show that g*mbling, at least the lottery kind, can be rational (or maybe reasonable is a better word in this context). 
http://ideas.repec.org/a/bla/econom/v58y1991i229p1-16.html

@17 I agree with you regarding regulatory implications, what I meant to say was that it seemed unlikely to me that you would derive support for large-scale macro intervention, like the recent stimulus, from a standard GE model with a little bit of bounded rationality bolted on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@12 I absolutely agree. Bounded rationality is the only kind we have, so we&#8217;d better not shun it. And a fair bit of my own work has been to show that g*mbling, at least the lottery kind, can be rational (or maybe reasonable is a better word in this context).<br />
<a href="http://ideas.repec.org/a/bla/econom/v58y1991i229p1-16.html" rel="nofollow">http://ideas.repec.org/a/bla/econom/v58y1991i229p1-16.html</a></p>

	<p>@17 I agree with you regarding regulatory implications, what I meant to say was that it seemed unlikely to me that you would derive support for large-scale macro intervention, like the recent stimulus, from a standard GE model with a little bit of bounded rationality bolted on.</p>
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		<title>By: John Cisternino</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/comment-page-1/#comment-292663</link>
		<dc:creator>John Cisternino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13440#comment-292663</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt;Papers in this tradition showed that small deviations from rationality can sometimes have big effects on economic outcomes. But they rarely have big implications for public policy. Rather, they point in the direction of the idea set out by Cass Sunstein and Richard Thaler in their recent book Nudge. Sunstein and Thaler argue that governments can sometimes exploit deviations from rationality by framing choices that will ‘nudge’ people’s decisions in a socially desirable direction.&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt;

Professor Quiggin,  I&#039;m curious if you can expand on the half paragraph about behavioral economics.   I&#039;m largely in agreement with your evaluation that recognition of bounded rationality has had only limited impact on public policy decisions,  but it might be quite clarifying if you said a bit more about the limits of the &quot;Nudge&quot; approach.   

FWIW,  it&#039;s not clear to me that behaviorally informed public policy must always be small and aimed at consumers.  Once the idea is taken seriously,  it can have quite serious regulatory implications -  if in a certain sector bounded rationality makes it systematically more profitable for firms to exploit consumers than to satisfy their long term (or subjectively endorsed) preferences,  then there&#039;s a prima facie case for significant regulatory reshaping of those sectors of the market.   Some of the  proposals for the new Consumer Financial Protection Agency in the United States seem headed in this direction.   

For a recent discussion of these broader implications of bounded rationality, see Michael S. Barr, Sendhil Mullainathan, and Eldar Shafir, &quot;The Case For Behaviorally Informed Regulation,&quot;  at  http://www.tobinproject.org/twobooks/pdf/New_Perspectives_Ch2_Barr_Mullainathan_Shafir.pdf  (full disclosure:  I co-edited the volume that this paper appeared in, &quot;New Perspectives on Regulation&quot;).&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote cite="">Papers in this tradition showed that small deviations from rationality can sometimes have big effects on economic outcomes. But they rarely have big implications for public policy. Rather, they point in the direction of the idea set out by Cass Sunstein and Richard Thaler in their recent book Nudge. Sunstein and Thaler argue that governments can sometimes exploit deviations from rationality by framing choices that will &#8216;nudge&#8217; people&#8217;s decisions in a socially desirable direction.<blockquote cite=""></blockquote></blockquote></p>

	<p>Professor Quiggin,  I&#8217;m curious if you can expand on the half paragraph about behavioral economics.   I&#8217;m largely in agreement with your evaluation that recognition of bounded rationality has had only limited impact on public policy decisions,  but it might be quite clarifying if you said a bit more about the limits of the &#8220;Nudge&#8221; approach.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">FWIW</span>,  it&#8217;s not clear to me that behaviorally informed public policy must always be small and aimed at consumers.  Once the idea is taken seriously,  it can have quite serious regulatory implications &#8211;  if in a certain sector bounded rationality makes it systematically more profitable for firms to exploit consumers than to satisfy their long term (or subjectively endorsed) preferences,  then there&#8217;s a prima facie case for significant regulatory reshaping of those sectors of the market.   Some of the  proposals for the new Consumer Financial Protection Agency in the United States seem headed in this direction.</p>

	<p>For a recent discussion of these broader implications of bounded rationality, see Michael S. Barr, Sendhil Mullainathan, and Eldar Shafir, &#8220;The Case For Behaviorally Informed Regulation,&#8221;  at  <a href="http://www.tobinproject.org/twobooks/pdf/New_Perspectives_Ch2_Barr_Mullainathan_Shafir.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.tobinproject.org/twobooks/pdf/New_Perspectives_Ch2_Barr_Mullainathan_Shafir.pdf</a>  (full disclosure:  I co-edited the volume that this paper appeared in, &#8220;New Perspectives on Regulation&#8221;).</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/comment-page-1/#comment-292660</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13440#comment-292660</guid>
		<description>Yup, g*mbling is out! Gamble on the other hand is good to go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yup, g*mbling is out! Gamble on the other hand is good to go.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/comment-page-1/#comment-292659</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13440#comment-292659</guid>
		<description>Nope, not that &#039;un. Gambling maybe?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Nope, not that &#8216;un. Gambling maybe?</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/comment-page-1/#comment-292656</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:44:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13440#comment-292656</guid>
		<description>JoB: Soci*lism? Crooked Timber is death on soci*lism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>JoB: Soci*lism? Crooked Timber is death on soci*lism.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/comment-page-1/#comment-292651</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:01:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13440#comment-292651</guid>
		<description>Oops, moderation! Unless it&#039;s catching bad English and mis-spelling now, I wouldn&#039;t be able to tell why it (12) is being caught.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oops, moderation! Unless it&#8217;s catching bad English and mis-spelling now, I wouldn&#8217;t be able to tell why it (12) is being caught.</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/comment-page-1/#comment-292650</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13440#comment-292650</guid>
		<description>John, yes, but I don&#039;t think we should see &#039;bounded rationality&#039; as inferior rationality. I am sure people need to be critically conscious of it but not to the extent of shuning it in principle. As said, there&#039;s nothing in principle wrong with liking to gamble althought we would not do it following pure rationality (I mean the every day gambling). The issue I would have with keeping Lakoff is that he has things backward in a foggy kind of way - whilst the originals had it forward in the clearest possible way. 

But let&#039;s hop on to your next snippet, shall we ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John, yes, but I don&#8217;t think we should see &#8216;bounded rationality&#8217; as inferior rationality. I am sure people need to be critically conscious of it but not to the extent of shuning it in principle. As said, there&#8217;s nothing in principle wrong with liking to gamble althought we would not do it following pure rationality (I mean the every day gambling). The issue I would have with keeping Lakoff is that he has things backward in a foggy kind of way &#8211; whilst the originals had it forward in the clearest possible way.</p>

	<p>But let&#8217;s hop on to your next snippet, shall we ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: Kenny Easwaran</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/comment-page-1/#comment-292606</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny Easwaran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 04:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13440#comment-292606</guid>
		<description>I would say that unless you want to go into a more detailed discussion, it&#039;s probably best to drop the Lakoff.  I can definitely see the advantage of keeping the reference, in that lots of your target audience will have heard vague praise of his ideas from the lefty blogosphere over the last couple years.  But it&#039;s probably not worth including just as a name-dropping device unless you clarify these ideas, because I suspect most of the target audience will have heard the word &quot;framing&quot; but not actually have any idea of the extent to which Lakoff is critiquing the very notion of rational debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I would say that unless you want to go into a more detailed discussion, it&#8217;s probably best to drop the Lakoff.  I can definitely see the advantage of keeping the reference, in that lots of your target audience will have heard vague praise of his ideas from the lefty blogosphere over the last couple years.  But it&#8217;s probably not worth including just as a name-dropping device unless you clarify these ideas, because I suspect most of the target audience will have heard the word &#8220;framing&#8221; but not actually have any idea of the extent to which Lakoff is critiquing the very notion of rational debate.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/comment-page-1/#comment-292579</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13440#comment-292579</guid>
		<description>You can&#039;t educate people &#039;out of&#039; bounded rationality because even the most sophisticated of us is still finite and therefore boundedly rational. Any coherent explanation of the recent financial meltdown must incorporate a large element of bounded rationality, both individual and in the collective behavior of financial institutions that are designed with the aim of being more rational and sophisticated than any individual.

That said, it is possible to learn (or be taught) to avoid particular errors in reasoning, especially if others are trying to exploit those errors. And, as Kenny says, it is possible to present information in ways that make it easier or harder for people to reach the &#039;right&#039; decision; roughly the one they would choose if they were unboundedly rational and at least moderately altruistic/socially concerned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You can&#8217;t educate people &#8216;out of&#8217; bounded rationality because even the most sophisticated of us is still finite and therefore boundedly rational. Any coherent explanation of the recent financial meltdown must incorporate a large element of bounded rationality, both individual and in the collective behavior of financial institutions that are designed with the aim of being more rational and sophisticated than any individual.</p>

	<p>That said, it is possible to learn (or be taught) to avoid particular errors in reasoning, especially if others are trying to exploit those errors. And, as Kenny says, it is possible to present information in ways that make it easier or harder for people to reach the &#8216;right&#8217; decision; roughly the one they would choose if they were unboundedly rational and at least moderately altruistic/socially concerned.</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/comment-page-1/#comment-292550</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13440#comment-292550</guid>
		<description>Hey John, sorry to offer my unsollicited opinion again: I&#039;d kick Lakoff &amp; you can keep the quick referenc example to &#039;framing&#039;. Enough studies in the more quantitative stuff on how people are influenced by how &#039;risk&#039; is framed (probably some that are political and in fact: framing the upside of risk, American Dream and so forth, is pretty close to the original).

Kenny, I don&#039;t see how you can educate human individual agents out of their bounded rationality. The preferences are real even if not rational; the only education is to get a critical attitude, and, on the macro-level to ensure that in society there is room for all things to be critically looked upon. Other than that, people will continue to gamble, in the full knowledge that they will, on the average, loose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hey John, sorry to offer my unsollicited opinion again: I&#8217;d kick Lakoff &#038; you can keep the quick referenc example to &#8216;framing&#8217;. Enough studies in the more quantitative stuff on how people are influenced by how &#8216;risk&#8217; is framed (probably some that are political and in fact: framing the upside of risk, American Dream and so forth, is pretty close to the original).</p>

	<p>Kenny, I don&#8217;t see how you can educate human individual agents out of their bounded rationality. The preferences are real even if not rational; the only education is to get a critical attitude, and, on the macro-level to ensure that in society there is room for all things to be critically looked upon. Other than that, people will continue to gamble, in the full knowledge that they will, on the average, loose.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/comment-page-1/#comment-292475</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13440#comment-292475</guid>
		<description>Ceri B, this is a plausible explanation of some kinds of hyperbolic discounting, though there are others that are more difficult to reconcile with rationality, such as carrying credit card balances.

JoB, I certainly plan more on bounded rationality, and I certainly should cover T&amp;K. There will be some of this in the &quot;What next&quot; section of this chapter (another hard bit) and I should go back to the EMH chapter and put a bit more in there.

Kenny, you got the point, even if it did seem a bit shoehorned.  Any suggestions to fit it more neatly, or should I cut the reference to Lakoff - it was only an aside.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ceri B, this is a plausible explanation of some kinds of hyperbolic discounting, though there are others that are more difficult to reconcile with rationality, such as carrying credit card balances.</p>

	<p>JoB, I certainly plan more on bounded rationality, and I certainly should cover T&#038;K. There will be some of this in the &#8220;What next&#8221; section of this chapter (another hard bit) and I should go back to the <span class="caps">EMH</span> chapter and put a bit more in there.</p>

	<p>Kenny, you got the point, even if it did seem a bit shoehorned.  Any suggestions to fit it more neatly, or should I cut the reference to Lakoff &#8211; it was only an aside.</p>
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		<title>By: Kenny Easwaran</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/comment-page-1/#comment-292468</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny Easwaran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13440#comment-292468</guid>
		<description>I also didn&#039;t think that the Lakoff fit in so nicely.  I can see the relevance of the idea, but the way it&#039;s presented here it feels a bit more like it&#039;s being shoe-horned in.

I guess the ideas of Sunstein and Lakoff do have the following relevant similarity.  Traditionally, we assume that people are fully rational.  Under this assumption, giving them more choices and more information will generally lead them to make the decisions that are best (at least with respect to their own interests, even if not with respect to societal interests).  However, following the work of Tversky and Kahneman (and many other psychologists, and I suppose some cognitive linguists and behavioral economists) we know that people aren&#039;t rational in the relevant way.  By understanding the ways in which they fail to be rational, we can present choices or information to them in ways that maximize the likelihood that people will end up actually acting in ways that are best (with respect to their own, or societal, or our, interests).

To present the ideas in the way that makes them seem properly parallel, like that, it seems to me that you really end up focusing on the ways that they manipulate people&#039;s irrationality.  It doesn&#039;t quite seem that this is the way the Keynesian wants to think about it though.  Rather, the Keynesian seems to want to figure out what the structure of equilibria is under the assumption that people behave in the more descriptively accurate irrational way, and then figure out how interventions interact with the structural features.  With Sunstein and Lakoff, it seems to be more about intervening on individuals, still treated as individuals, which ends up feeling more manipulative or paternalistic.  With the Keynesian, it sounds like the idea is almost to ignore the individuals and intervene on the macro structure directly.  We may still be manipulating the individuals, but we aren&#039;t doing so in a way that intends to manipulate their individual decisions directly - instead we only care about the individual decisions because of the role they play in creating the larger economic structures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I also didn&#8217;t think that the Lakoff fit in so nicely.  I can see the relevance of the idea, but the way it&#8217;s presented here it feels a bit more like it&#8217;s being shoe-horned in.</p>

	<p>I guess the ideas of Sunstein and Lakoff do have the following relevant similarity.  Traditionally, we assume that people are fully rational.  Under this assumption, giving them more choices and more information will generally lead them to make the decisions that are best (at least with respect to their own interests, even if not with respect to societal interests).  However, following the work of Tversky and Kahneman (and many other psychologists, and I suppose some cognitive linguists and behavioral economists) we know that people aren&#8217;t rational in the relevant way.  By understanding the ways in which they fail to be rational, we can present choices or information to them in ways that maximize the likelihood that people will end up actually acting in ways that are best (with respect to their own, or societal, or our, interests).</p>

	<p>To present the ideas in the way that makes them seem properly parallel, like that, it seems to me that you really end up focusing on the ways that they manipulate people&#8217;s irrationality.  It doesn&#8217;t quite seem that this is the way the Keynesian wants to think about it though.  Rather, the Keynesian seems to want to figure out what the structure of equilibria is under the assumption that people behave in the more descriptively accurate irrational way, and then figure out how interventions interact with the structural features.  With Sunstein and Lakoff, it seems to be more about intervening on individuals, still treated as individuals, which ends up feeling more manipulative or paternalistic.  With the Keynesian, it sounds like the idea is almost to ignore the individuals and intervene on the macro structure directly.  We may still be manipulating the individuals, but we aren&#8217;t doing so in a way that intends to manipulate their individual decisions directly &#8211; instead we only care about the individual decisions because of the role they play in creating the larger economic structures.</p>
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		<title>By: JoB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/comment-page-1/#comment-292452</link>
		<dc:creator>JoB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 07:54:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13440#comment-292452</guid>
		<description>Hey, I was expecting Tversky &amp; Kahneman and I get haikus &amp; Lakoff??? &amp;, to my utter surprise, wikipedia entry for T&amp;K does not refer to &#039;bounded rationality&#039; and wikipedia entry for &#039;bounded rationality does not refer to T&amp;K!

Is the more serious quantitative (micro?-)stuff on bounded rationality still to come, or are you going to stick with the semi-poetic (macro?-)stuff?

There should be some economics stuff based on T&amp;K, isn&#039;t there?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hey, I was expecting Tversky &#038; Kahneman and I get haikus &#038; Lakoff??? &#038;, to my utter surprise, wikipedia entry for T&#038;K does not refer to &#8216;bounded rationality&#8217; and wikipedia entry for &#8216;bounded rationality does not refer to T&#038;K!</p>

	<p>Is the more serious quantitative (micro?-)stuff on bounded rationality still to come, or are you going to stick with the semi-poetic (macro?-)stuff?</p>

	<p>There should be some economics stuff based on T&#038;K, isn&#8217;t there?</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick E.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/20/bookblogging-implications-of-micro-based-macro/comment-page-1/#comment-292451</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick E.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 06:45:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13440#comment-292451</guid>
		<description>One of the things that I&#039;ve been wondering about in your discussion of micro-based macro discussions is the role the  Sonnenschein-Mantel-Debreu Theorem plays in all of this. From what I understand of it, the whole micro-based macro project should have been dead in the water from day one, but I was wondering if I&#039;m just misunderstanding its implications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One of the things that I&#8217;ve been wondering about in your discussion of micro-based macro discussions is the role the  Sonnenschein-Mantel-Debreu Theorem plays in all of this. From what I understand of it, the whole micro-based macro project should have been dead in the water from day one, but I was wondering if I&#8217;m just misunderstanding its implications.</p>
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