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	<title>Comments on: UK parliamentary chutzpah award</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:49:20 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/comment-page-2/#comment-293024</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 17:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13446#comment-293024</guid>
		<description>How is that, ejh? The delivery service hasn&#039;t been casualised yet, for starters - though the union claims there are plans to. And why should we expect that casualised deliveries will lead to ineffective complaints? Doesn&#039;t Royal Mail know who worked the route the day my registered mail was dropped off without a signature? So I complain about the Thursday delivery and they can&#039;t discipline the casualised staff?

Every year Japan manages to facilitate the delivery of hundreds of millions of nengajo on time - to the day - using casualised labour. Why should we think that the Royal Mail can&#039;t manage a casualised staff the same?

This is as strange a comment as dsquareds at 2, that job and finish is an incentive mechanism. What does this give the postie an incentive to do, besides finish their job as quickly as possible?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>How is that, ejh? The delivery service hasn&#8217;t been casualised yet, for starters &#8211; though the union claims there are plans to. And why should we expect that casualised deliveries will lead to ineffective complaints? Doesn&#8217;t Royal Mail know who worked the route the day my registered mail was dropped off without a signature? So I complain about the Thursday delivery and they can&#8217;t discipline the casualised staff?</p>

	<p>Every year Japan manages to facilitate the delivery of hundreds of millions of nengajo on time &#8211; to the day &#8211; using casualised labour. Why should we think that the Royal Mail can&#8217;t manage a casualised staff the same?</p>

	<p>This is as strange a comment as dsquareds at 2, that job and finish is an incentive mechanism. What does this give the postie an incentive to do, besides finish their job as quickly as possible?</p>
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		<title>By: ejh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/comment-page-2/#comment-292988</link>
		<dc:creator>ejh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 10:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13446#comment-292988</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;These are basic things that every other postal service in the world can get right.&lt;/i&gt;

This is very simply not true: I knew it wasn&#039;t true once I&#039;d lived in Spain for two months. Plainly you don&#039;t care whether it&#039;s true or not, but it plainly isn&#039;t true.

I notice you completely ignore the issue of casualisation. You&#039;d have to, of course, but for the benefit of other readers: you can&#039;t, for very long, do a bodged job if you have a fixed route, because the complaints will come in very swiftly and it will obviously be you at fault. If, however, deliveries are casualised, practically a different person every day, it&#039;s a completely different story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>These are basic things that every other postal service in the world can get right.</i></p>

	<p>This is very simply not true: I knew it wasn&#8217;t true once I&#8217;d lived in Spain for two months. Plainly you don&#8217;t care whether it&#8217;s true or not, but it plainly isn&#8217;t true.</p>

	<p>I notice you completely ignore the issue of casualisation. You&#8217;d have to, of course, but for the benefit of other readers: you can&#8217;t, for very long, do a bodged job if you have a fixed route, because the complaints will come in very swiftly and it will obviously be you at fault. If, however, deliveries are casualised, practically a different person every day, it&#8217;s a completely different story.</p>
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		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/comment-page-2/#comment-292982</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 09:18:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13446#comment-292982</guid>
		<description>Of course, it&#039;s not the sainted Union staff who deliver registered mail unsigned, drop boxes unsafely at your doorstep without knocking, leave a delivery slip without checking if you&#039;re home, or just don&#039;t deliver them at all - and I&#039;m sure that the rushed and bodgy job they do has nothing to do with job and finish and is all the management&#039;s fault. Likewise the christmas cards delivered in February, the crushed and broken objects, the misinformation at the counter and the redeliveries that just never happen.

These are basic things that every other postal service in the world can get right. Why is Royal Mail still fighting to introduce basic modern technology like electronic sorting?

I&#039;m all for striking to protect pay and conditions, but not for striking to maintain an essential service in a state of paralysis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Of course, it&#8217;s not the sainted Union staff who deliver registered mail unsigned, drop boxes unsafely at your doorstep without knocking, leave a delivery slip without checking if you&#8217;re home, or just don&#8217;t deliver them at all &#8211; and I&#8217;m sure that the rushed and bodgy job they do has nothing to do with job and finish and is all the management&#8217;s fault. Likewise the christmas cards delivered in February, the crushed and broken objects, the misinformation at the counter and the redeliveries that just never happen.</p>

	<p>These are basic things that every other postal service in the world can get right. Why is Royal Mail still fighting to introduce basic modern technology like electronic sorting?</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m all for striking to protect pay and conditions, but not for striking to maintain an essential service in a state of paralysis.</p>
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		<title>By: ejh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/comment-page-1/#comment-292959</link>
		<dc:creator>ejh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 22:29:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13446#comment-292959</guid>
		<description>Well, if I were looking for someone lazy, idiotic and rude it might well be the author of that last posting - who, if they had the slightest interest in anything other than venting their prejudices, might ask what proportion of theft and error is likely to be the responsibility of full-time postal workers (very likely to be CWU members) and what proportion is likely to be the responsibility of casual workers (much less likely to be CWU members, but much increased in numbers recently,  by Adam Crozier, against the CWU&#039;s wishes).

But if we did that, we might run the risk of finding out that the union was neither defending thieves nor responsible for them. And we might also find out that the trends which lead to an often unsatisfactory service are those which the management seek to extend and the union opposes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, if I were looking for someone lazy, idiotic and rude it might well be the author of that last posting &#8211; who, if they had the slightest interest in anything other than venting their prejudices, might ask what proportion of theft and error is likely to be the responsibility of full-time postal workers (very likely to be <span class="caps">CWU</span> members) and what proportion is likely to be the responsibility of casual workers (much less likely to be <span class="caps">CWU</span> members, but much increased in numbers recently,  by Adam Crozier, against the <span class="caps">CWU</span>&#8217;s wishes).</p>

	<p>But if we did that, we might run the risk of finding out that the union was neither defending thieves nor responsible for them. And we might also find out that the trends which lead to an often unsatisfactory service are those which the management seek to extend and the union opposes.</p>
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		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/comment-page-1/#comment-292953</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 21:02:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13446#comment-292953</guid>
		<description>Yes, here&#039;s to the bunch of thieving lazy idiots who can&#039;t deliver my mail and would rather steal it than put it in the right letterbox. We can only hope that they hold back the evil capitalist system of mail-sorting which enables every other country to deliver its mail accurately, by christmas. Why should we expect to pay a reasonable amount to receive an efficient, effective service delivered courteously by people who take pride in their job, when the CWU can defend postal staff who refuse to deliver mail on time, steal from parcels, and are rude to you when you try to get anything as irrelevant and non-essential as mail delivered?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, here&#8217;s to the bunch of thieving lazy idiots who can&#8217;t deliver my mail and would rather steal it than put it in the right letterbox. We can only hope that they hold back the evil capitalist system of mail-sorting which enables every other country to deliver its mail accurately, by christmas. Why should we expect to pay a reasonable amount to receive an efficient, effective service delivered courteously by people who take pride in their job, when the <span class="caps">CWU</span> can defend postal staff who refuse to deliver mail on time, steal from parcels, and are rude to you when you try to get anything as irrelevant and non-essential as mail delivered?</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/comment-page-1/#comment-292569</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 22:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13446#comment-292569</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Uh, no. Any number of anecdotes do not amount to evidence for anything whatsoever. All that counts is properly controlled data. Is there any?&lt;/i&gt;

You would have thought there should be - a mail carrier must be one of the single easiest businesses to regulate. Just set up one or two hundred people who send a few pieces of mail pretty much every day to a different location around the uk, and measure the frequency of issues and delays (outside of union action) over time. If there are issues in an area, send more mail to/from that area for a while to see if it was just a statistical outlier, and build in a system to make sure it is worth the while the people sending it not cheating (i.e. if they are caught not sending mail but claiming they had, they get knocked off the scheme and stop getting whatever cash is deamed necessary to persuade people to take part).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Uh, no. Any number of anecdotes do not amount to evidence for anything whatsoever. All that counts is properly controlled data. Is there any?</i></p>

	<p>You would have thought there should be &#8211; a mail carrier must be one of the single easiest businesses to regulate. Just set up one or two hundred people who send a few pieces of mail pretty much every day to a different location around the uk, and measure the frequency of issues and delays (outside of union action) over time. If there are issues in an area, send more mail to/from that area for a while to see if it was just a statistical outlier, and build in a system to make sure it is worth the while the people sending it not cheating (i.e. if they are caught not sending mail but claiming they had, they get knocked off the scheme and stop getting whatever cash is deamed necessary to persuade people to take part).</p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/comment-page-1/#comment-292517</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13446#comment-292517</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;“The mood in the tea rooms was venomous.” &lt;/i&gt;

&#039;The Bishop is out for blood, not tea,&quot; replied Clovis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;The mood in the tea rooms was venomous.&#8221; </i></p>

	<p>&#8216;The Bishop is out for blood, not tea,&#8221; replied Clovis.</p>
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		<title>By: someguy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/comment-page-1/#comment-292505</link>
		<dc:creator>someguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13446#comment-292505</guid>
		<description>Walt,

A simple re-distributive justice would have sufficed.

Also I am not sure working an 8 hour as opposed to a 7 hour qualifies as being relentlessly ground under the heels of your employer.

It isn’t trivial but I am not sure it really qualifies as scraps from the table.  

Do you see any trade off issues?  Especially in the US where the amount available for re-distribution is less.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Walt,</p>

	<p>A simple re-distributive justice would have sufficed.</p>

	<p>Also I am not sure working an 8 hour as opposed to a 7 hour qualifies as being relentlessly ground under the heels of your employer.</p>

	<p>It isn&#8217;t trivial but I am not sure it really qualifies as scraps from the table.</p>

	<p>Do you see any trade off issues?  Especially in the US where the amount available for re-distribution is less.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Wilder</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/comment-page-1/#comment-292501</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Wilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13446#comment-292501</guid>
		<description>The BBC, reporting on the resentment among members dinged in the expenses row, used a delightful phrase, that still has me chuckling:  

&quot;The mood in the tea rooms was venomous.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The <span class="caps">BBC</span>, reporting on the resentment among members dinged in the expenses row, used a delightful phrase, that still has me chuckling:</p>

	<p>&#8220;The mood in the tea rooms was venomous.&#8221; </p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/comment-page-1/#comment-292498</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:04:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13446#comment-292498</guid>
		<description>It might be the way we don&#039;t like to see workers relentlessly ground under the heels of their employers, even for the sake of being able to mail a first-class letter for 30 cents rather than 44.   I realize that you think that less-skilled workers are a servant class for whom the best they can hope is scraps from your table so that they can thank you for your beneficence, but this sentiment is not universally shared.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It might be the way we don&#8217;t like to see workers relentlessly ground under the heels of their employers, even for the sake of being able to mail a first-class letter for 30 cents rather than 44.   I realize that you think that less-skilled workers are a servant class for whom the best they can hope is scraps from your table so that they can thank you for your beneficence, but this sentiment is not universally shared.</p>
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		<title>By: someguy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/comment-page-1/#comment-292497</link>
		<dc:creator>someguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 14:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13446#comment-292497</guid>
		<description>What is the waiting list for a postal (delivery) job in the UK?

In the US it can be a very long wait for a full time route.

That is because the remuneration is above a free market rate.

I have no objection to job and finish and I am not filled with rage about a 7 hour work day.

But make no mistake it isn&#039;t always 7 hours in many cases it is 9 - 3 with an hour lunch.  A typical NYC workers day.

And even at 7 hours it has a very real cost.   Provisioning goods and services at a more expensive rate than they need to be provisioned means less goods can be provided.  It costs taxpayers money.

I  would think that this would be more of a problem for US progressives.  They have a smaller pie to play with.   But the answer is always redistribute and damn the efficiency.  See the US educational system. (And actually a desire for redistributive justice really doesn&#039;t explain the US educational system.)

I wonder why?  Is it just progressives acquiescing to the public choice realities or is it something more?

Shorter version - 

Why are progressives so happy providing horriblely inefficient goods and services?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What is the waiting list for a postal (delivery) job in the UK?</p>

	<p>In the US it can be a very long wait for a full time route.</p>

	<p>That is because the remuneration is above a free market rate.</p>

	<p>I have no objection to job and finish and I am not filled with rage about a 7 hour work day.</p>

	<p>But make no mistake it isn&#8217;t always 7 hours in many cases it is 9 &#8211; 3 with an hour lunch.  A typical <span class="caps">NYC</span> workers day.</p>

	<p>And even at 7 hours it has a very real cost.   Provisioning goods and services at a more expensive rate than they need to be provisioned means less goods can be provided.  It costs taxpayers money.</p>

	<p>I  would think that this would be more of a problem for US progressives.  They have a smaller pie to play with.   But the answer is always redistribute and damn the efficiency.  See the US educational system. (And actually a desire for redistributive justice really doesn&#8217;t explain the US educational system.)</p>

	<p>I wonder why?  Is it just progressives acquiescing to the public choice realities or is it something more?</p>

	<p>Shorter version &#8211;<br />
Why are progressives so happy providing horriblely inefficient goods and services?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Kenny Easwaran</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/comment-page-1/#comment-292465</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny Easwaran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13446#comment-292465</guid>
		<description>Does anyone know of any rigorous data on postal delivery?  I suspect things like average delivery time are well-known, and in fact quite standard.  (In my own experience, in the US the New Yorker would always arrive on Wednesday or Thursday, and Netflix always had a two day turn-around.  In Australia, the New Yorker is very irregular because it gets shipped from France for some reason, and the local Netflix substitute seems to take about two days to get from the delivery centre to my place, though it&#039;s harder for me to tell because I don&#039;t know exactly when they ship.  Neither of these items has ever been lost in the mail.)  From all the anecdotal experience I&#039;ve seen, in the US at least lost mail almost never happens, but it would be nice to know if &quot;almost never&quot; means .5% of all mail or .0001% or what.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Does anyone know of any rigorous data on postal delivery?  I suspect things like average delivery time are well-known, and in fact quite standard.  (In my own experience, in the US the New Yorker would always arrive on Wednesday or Thursday, and Netflix always had a two day turn-around.  In Australia, the New Yorker is very irregular because it gets shipped from France for some reason, and the local Netflix substitute seems to take about two days to get from the delivery centre to my place, though it&#8217;s harder for me to tell because I don&#8217;t know exactly when they ship.  Neither of these items has ever been lost in the mail.)  From all the anecdotal experience I&#8217;ve seen, in the US at least lost mail almost never happens, but it would be nice to know if &#8220;almost never&#8221; means .5% of all mail or .0001% or what.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/comment-page-1/#comment-292448</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 04:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13446#comment-292448</guid>
		<description>Part of the reason job and finish exists is that you have to hire for the somewhat above average times, not the minimum times.  If they can finish a few hours early every day, something may be wrong with their shift.  But much more likely is that they can finish early on the days that are light for their route.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Part of the reason job and finish exists is that you have to hire for the somewhat above average times, not the minimum times.  If they can finish a few hours early every day, something may be wrong with their shift.  But much more likely is that they can finish early on the days that are light for their route.</p>
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		<title>By: herr doktor bimler</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/comment-page-1/#comment-292445</link>
		<dc:creator>herr doktor bimler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 03:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13446#comment-292445</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;incentive plans based on measuring performance always backfire. Not sometimes. Always. What you measure is inevitably a proxy for the outcome you want&lt;/i&gt;

I can see this applying to the academic world.
[&lt;i&gt;checks own recent publication output&lt;/i&gt;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>incentive plans based on measuring performance always backfire. Not sometimes. Always. What you measure is inevitably a proxy for the outcome you want</i></p>

	<p>I can see this applying to the academic world.<br />
[<i>checks own recent publication output</i>]</p>
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		<title>By: Antti Nannimus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/21/uk-parliamentary-chutzpah-award/comment-page-1/#comment-292430</link>
		<dc:creator>Antti Nannimus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 23:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13446#comment-292430</guid>
		<description>Hi,

Who can legitimately criticize such hard-working people? It&#039;s just a pity they can&#039;t make a decent living from only one job.

Have a nice day!
Antti</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hi,</p>

	<p>Who can legitimately criticize such hard-working people? It&#8217;s just a pity they can&#8217;t make a decent living from only one job.</p>

	<p>Have a nice day!<br />
Antti</p>
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