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	<title>Comments on: Rules for Contrarians: 1. Don&#8217;t whine.  That is all</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Debbie R.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/comment-page-2/#comment-293253</link>
		<dc:creator>Debbie R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13454#comment-293253</guid>
		<description>Do you think Stephen Dubner sees himself as contrarian? I don&#039;t.   I think he sees himself as iconoclastic and smarter than others who look at things more conventionally.  The fact that his chapter on global warming leads some of us to conclude that he is contrary for the sake of being contrary is not something I think he likes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Do you think Stephen Dubner sees himself as contrarian? I don&#8217;t.   I think he sees himself as iconoclastic and smarter than others who look at things more conventionally.  The fact that his chapter on global warming leads some of us to conclude that he is contrary for the sake of being contrary is not something I think he likes.</p>
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		<title>By: chris y</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/comment-page-2/#comment-293250</link>
		<dc:creator>chris y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13454#comment-293250</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;J’ai, Ich habe … ho, habia – is this right?&lt;/i&gt;

Depends if &quot;most modern European languages&quot; covers &quot;most other languages&quot;. Doubt it, me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>J&#8217;ai, Ich habe &#8230; ho, habia &#8211; is this right?</i></p>

	<p>Depends if &#8220;most modern European languages&#8221; covers &#8220;most other languages&#8221;. Doubt it, me.</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/comment-page-2/#comment-293243</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:54:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13454#comment-293243</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;In most other languages, the perfect tense marker is not even close to the verb for “have,”&lt;/i&gt;

J&#039;ai, Ich habe ... ho, habia - is this right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>In most other languages, the perfect tense marker is not even close to the verb for &#8220;have,&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>J&#8217;ai, Ich habe &#8230; ho, habia &#8211; is this right?</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/comment-page-2/#comment-293242</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13454#comment-293242</guid>
		<description>Deft use of magic scare quotes:

&lt;i&gt;The whole idea of contrarianism is that you’re “attacking the conventional wisdom”, you’re “telling people that their most cherished beliefs are wrong”, you’re “turning the world upside down”. In other words, you’re setting out to annoy people.&lt;/i&gt;

Compare this:
&lt;i&gt;The whole idea of conspiracism is you&#039;re &quot;just asking questions&quot;, or &quot;applying scepticism to official claims&quot; or &quot;researching the secret state&quot;. In other words, you&lt;/i&gt; [yes, you sir] &lt;i&gt;are indulging a prurient taste for paranoid fantasy.&lt;/i&gt;

As for Mhyrvold, while opinion given under the aegis of supposed expert authority is one of very few cases in which motive-based meta-argument (crude ad hom.) is apt*, a 5-minute internet search suggests that M is not disputing received wisdom qua received wisdom (i.e. &#039;being contrarian&#039;), still less aiming to piss people off.  He&#039;s attacking solar power to promote the nuclear reactors he hopes to develop (with a little &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE55O0BL20090625&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;help&lt;/a&gt; from his friends).

Anyway, let&#039;s assume that these people do indeed only do it to annoy, because they know it teases. Why should they (choose to) be governed by a rule that tells them to stop at the first round of annoyance, when they could annoy even more teasingly by being evasive, backtracking, whining, etc?

*Others being testimony, those who explicitly say &quot;trust me&quot; (or &quot;I&#039;m a pretty straight kind of guy&quot;), and (to some extent) known timewasting talkers of bollocks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Deft use of magic scare quotes:</p>

	<p><i>The whole idea of contrarianism is that you&#8217;re &#8220;attacking the conventional wisdom&#8221;, you&#8217;re &#8220;telling people that their most cherished beliefs are wrong&#8221;, you&#8217;re &#8220;turning the world upside down&#8221;. In other words, you&#8217;re setting out to annoy people.</i></p>

	<p>Compare this:<br />
<i>The whole idea of conspiracism is you&#8217;re &#8220;just asking questions&#8221;, or &#8220;applying scepticism to official claims&#8221; or &#8220;researching the secret state&#8221;. In other words, you</i> [yes, you sir] <i>are indulging a prurient taste for paranoid fantasy.</i></p>

	<p>As for Mhyrvold, while opinion given under the aegis of supposed expert authority is one of very few cases in which motive-based meta-argument (crude ad hom.) is apt*, a 5-minute internet search suggests that M is not disputing received wisdom qua received wisdom (i.e. &#8216;being contrarian&#8217;), still less aiming to piss people off.  He&#8217;s attacking solar power to promote the nuclear reactors he hopes to develop (with a little <a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE55O0BL20090625" rel="nofollow">help</a> from his friends).</p>

	<p>Anyway, let&#8217;s assume that these people do indeed only do it to annoy, because they know it teases. Why should they (choose to) be governed by a rule that tells them to stop at the first round of annoyance, when they could annoy even more teasingly by being evasive, backtracking, whining, etc?</p>

	<p>*Others being testimony, those who explicitly say &#8220;trust me&#8221; (or &#8220;I&#8217;m a pretty straight kind of guy&#8221;), and (to some extent) known timewasting talkers of bollocks.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/comment-page-2/#comment-293181</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:53:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13454#comment-293181</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a few, courtesy of the one and only Google:

http://www.grouchyoldcripple.com/archives/001257.html

http://www.polyamorousmisanthrope.com/2008/10/13/personal-ad-translation-service/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Here&#8217;s a few, courtesy of the one and only Google:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.grouchyoldcripple.com/archives/001257.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.grouchyoldcripple.com/archives/001257.html</a></p>

	<p><a href="http://www.polyamorousmisanthrope.com/2008/10/13/personal-ad-translation-service/" rel="nofollow">http://www.polyamorousmisanthrope.com/2008/10/13/personal-ad-translation-service/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Wrangle</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/comment-page-2/#comment-292876</link>
		<dc:creator>Wrangle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 06:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13454#comment-292876</guid>
		<description>An essayist once wrote a list (now lost in the dimmer reaches of the net, alas) containing number of translations for terms taken from personal ads.  My favorite was seeing &quot;Let&#039;s challenge each other&#039;s most deeply held preconceptions&quot; translated as &quot;I will disrupt your life for reasons I do not fully understand.&quot;

Then again, I may have been biased at that point, having recently broken up with a woman who could be aptly described by the phrase, &quot;She thought she was a contrarian, but in fact she was merely disagreeable.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>An essayist once wrote a list (now lost in the dimmer reaches of the net, alas) containing number of translations for terms taken from personal ads.  My favorite was seeing &#8220;Let&#8217;s challenge each other&#8217;s most deeply held preconceptions&#8221; translated as &#8220;I will disrupt your life for reasons I do not fully understand.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Then again, I may have been biased at that point, having recently broken up with a woman who could be aptly described by the phrase, &#8220;She thought she was a contrarian, but in fact she was merely disagreeable.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Wrye</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/comment-page-2/#comment-292830</link>
		<dc:creator>Wrye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 19:53:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13454#comment-292830</guid>
		<description>Every year forever, indeed.

Gwynne Dyer made the excellent point in &lt;i&gt;Climate Wars&lt;/i&gt;, which I haven&#039;t seen made elsewhere (though I&#039;m sure others have made it too) that the entire reason scientists weren&#039;t overly promoting relatively simple geoengineering ideas like atmospheric sulphur dioxide spraying or low-altitude cloud seeding (let alone second or third generation stuff like sun shields) is that they were afraid people would seize on them as a substitute for the necessary real action, rather than a temporary brake to buy a few extra years to get carbon emissions down.  And since his book came out last year, articles since then - and now this book - seem to be bearing him out.

I&#039;m not sure Levitt &amp; Dubner&#039;s stuff adds that much to the outright denialists&#039; arsenal, but it does muddy the disucssion even more, which is just not useful from an act-in-time-to-avoid-Bangladesh-going-underwater perspective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Every year forever, indeed.</p>

	<p>Gwynne Dyer made the excellent point in <i>Climate Wars</i>, which I haven&#8217;t seen made elsewhere (though I&#8217;m sure others have made it too) that the entire reason scientists weren&#8217;t overly promoting relatively simple geoengineering ideas like atmospheric sulphur dioxide spraying or low-altitude cloud seeding (let alone second or third generation stuff like sun shields) is that they were afraid people would seize on them as a substitute for the necessary real action, rather than a temporary brake to buy a few extra years to get carbon emissions down.  And since his book came out last year, articles since then &#8211; and now this book &#8211; seem to be bearing him out.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not sure Levitt &#038; Dubner&#8217;s stuff adds that much to the outright denialists&#8217; arsenal, but it does muddy the disucssion even more, which is just not useful from an act-in-time-to-avoid-Bangladesh-going-underwater perspective.</p>
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		<title>By: Vicki</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/comment-page-2/#comment-292826</link>
		<dc:creator>Vicki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 19:08:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13454#comment-292826</guid>
		<description>As I heard it, the point of &quot;Peccavi&quot; wasn&#039;t to save telegram charges, it was to get a message through that the English recipient would understand and that wouldn&#039;t be understood by anyone on the other side who happened to see the message.

If you&#039;re an English-speaker, you translate &quot;Peccavi&quot; as &quot;I have [verb tense marker] sinned,&quot; which is homophonic to &quot;I have [possess] Sindh.&quot; In most other languages, the perfect tense marker is not even close to the verb for &quot;have,&quot; and the place-name &quot;Sindh&quot; isn&#039;t going to be suggested by the verb meaning &quot;sin.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As I heard it, the point of &#8220;Peccavi&#8221; wasn&#8217;t to save telegram charges, it was to get a message through that the English recipient would understand and that wouldn&#8217;t be understood by anyone on the other side who happened to see the message.</p>

	<p>If you&#8217;re an English-speaker, you translate &#8220;Peccavi&#8221; as &#8220;I have [verb tense marker] sinned,&#8221; which is homophonic to &#8220;I have [possess] Sindh.&#8221; In most other languages, the perfect tense marker is not even close to the verb for &#8220;have,&#8221; and the place-name &#8220;Sindh&#8221; isn&#8217;t going to be suggested by the verb meaning &#8220;sin.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/comment-page-2/#comment-292789</link>
		<dc:creator>alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 10:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13454#comment-292789</guid>
		<description>The sooner this idea is rebranded as &quot;global smog&quot;, the quicker it&#039;ll go away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The sooner this idea is rebranded as &#8220;global smog&#8221;, the quicker it&#8217;ll go away.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Watts</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/comment-page-2/#comment-292756</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Watts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 03:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13454#comment-292756</guid>
		<description>Levitt &amp; Dubner advocate the equivalent of dumping 1-2 Mt. Pinatubos of sulfur dioxide into the global atmosphere every year forever . What they propose dumping into the atmosphere is what causes acid rain. The amount they propose should be dumped into the atmosphere would exceed even the worst period of air pollution in the post WWII era, when entire forests in Eastern Europe were dying from acid rain and hundreds of lakes and rivers in Canada became dead and sterile from acid rain. 

Their &quot;solution&quot; would also hasten -- rather than stop -- ocean acidification which could wipe out the entire marine food chain by preventing plankton from building their bodies from calcium carbonate (the ocean would be too acidic and dissolve them). No more oceanic plankton. No more coral reefs. No more oceanic food chain. The only way to stop ocean acidification (which occurs by CO2 being dissolved in seawater, lowering its pH) is to put a brake on atmospheric CO2 levels. Levitt &amp; Dubner&#039;s &quot;solution&quot; would allow CO2 levels to go up, and up, and up ...

This has nothing to do with being &quot;contrarian&quot; -- it has to do with getting all your facts wrong and omitting the rest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Levitt &#038; Dubner advocate the equivalent of dumping 1-2 Mt. Pinatubos of sulfur dioxide into the global atmosphere every year forever . What they propose dumping into the atmosphere is what causes acid rain. The amount they propose should be dumped into the atmosphere would exceed even the worst period of air pollution in the post <span class="caps">WWII</span> era, when entire forests in Eastern Europe were dying from acid rain and hundreds of lakes and rivers in Canada became dead and sterile from acid rain.</p>

	<p>Their &#8220;solution&#8221; would also hasten&#8212;rather than stop&#8212;ocean acidification which could wipe out the entire marine food chain by preventing plankton from building their bodies from calcium carbonate (the ocean would be too acidic and dissolve them). No more oceanic plankton. No more coral reefs. No more oceanic food chain. The only way to stop ocean acidification (which occurs by <span class="caps">CO2</span> being dissolved in seawater, lowering its pH) is to put a brake on atmospheric <span class="caps">CO2</span> levels. Levitt &#038; Dubner&#8217;s &#8220;solution&#8221; would allow <span class="caps">CO2</span> levels to go up, and up, and up &#8230;</p>

	<p>This has nothing to do with being &#8220;contrarian&#8221;&#8212;it has to do with getting all your facts wrong and omitting the rest.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike S</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/comment-page-2/#comment-292749</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 02:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13454#comment-292749</guid>
		<description>This wouldn&#039;t even be that big of a deal except that this is definitely going to be used to give deniers a thin veneer of intellectualism, despite claims otherwise.

No matter how many times it will be debunked it will pop every now and again as one those impossible to kill zombie lies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This wouldn&#8217;t even be that big of a deal except that this is definitely going to be used to give deniers a thin veneer of intellectualism, despite claims otherwise.</p>

	<p>No matter how many times it will be debunked it will pop every now and again as one those impossible to kill zombie lies.</p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/comment-page-2/#comment-292733</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 00:05:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13454#comment-292733</guid>
		<description>After reading Levitt&#039;s latest, I get it: it isn&#039;t just about pissing off liberals, it is about pissing off Indians. You know, the guys in that subcontinent who depend on monsoons? Well, screw that! It&#039;ll just be so much trouble - a trillion a year (he said, barely able to contain his laughter) to get carbon emissions down,so why not engineer the planet with sulfur particulates that will have practically no downside, save for that monsoon thing that will only kill Indians. 

I&#039;m wondering if this is for real, or if it is a Yes man spoof.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>After reading Levitt&#8217;s latest, I get it: it isn&#8217;t just about pissing off liberals, it is about pissing off Indians. You know, the guys in that subcontinent who depend on monsoons? Well, screw that! It&#8217;ll just be so much trouble &#8211; a trillion a year (he said, barely able to contain his laughter) to get carbon emissions down,so why not engineer the planet with sulfur particulates that will have practically no downside, save for that monsoon thing that will only kill Indians.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m wondering if this is for real, or if it is a Yes man spoof.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Hyde</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/comment-page-2/#comment-292732</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Hyde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 23:56:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13454#comment-292732</guid>
		<description>Interesting how  &quot;Once people with a strong political or ideological bent latch onto an issue, it becomes hard to ...&quot; neglects to mention those people who happen to own patent portfolios the value of which depend on the outcome of the discussion at hand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Interesting how  &#8220;Once people with a strong political or ideological bent latch onto an issue, it becomes hard to &#8230;&#8221; neglects to mention those people who happen to own patent portfolios the value of which depend on the outcome of the discussion at hand.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike999</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/comment-page-2/#comment-292725</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike999</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 23:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13454#comment-292725</guid>
		<description>A simpler explanation, is that they are Prostitutes for the Oil / Coal Industry.  Just another, of many, in the &quot;journalism&quot; profession, Bought Out by Coal Money.   There ought to be a law where we can Eject Paid Prostitutes from the Profession, instead we have Rupert Murdoch and Fox &quot;news&quot;.  

The only real question is, &quot;How much?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A simpler explanation, is that they are Prostitutes for the Oil / Coal Industry.  Just another, of many, in the &#8220;journalism&#8221; profession, Bought Out by Coal Money.   There ought to be a law where we can Eject Paid Prostitutes from the Profession, instead we have Rupert Murdoch and Fox &#8220;news&#8221;.</p>

	<p>The only real question is, &#8220;How much?&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Dano</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/22/rules-for-contrarians-1-dont-whine-that-is-all/comment-page-2/#comment-292670</link>
		<dc:creator>Dano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 18:18:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13454#comment-292670</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;After dsquared’s famous post, I went out and tried some Budweiser. It was a big disappointment. It was that day I learned the true value of contrarianism. &lt;/i&gt;

Speaking of being contrary, the Colorado microbrews are too malty for my taste and have a slight bitter aftertaste. Give me an alarmist California-Washington state  hoppy brew any day, even if it dehydrates. But surely you all will misinterpret this as whining. I&#039;m not whining, no sir. I&#039;m not.

Best,

D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>After dsquared&#8217;s famous post, I went out and tried some Budweiser. It was a big disappointment. It was that day I learned the true value of contrarianism. </i></p>

	<p>Speaking of being contrary, the Colorado microbrews are too malty for my taste and have a slight bitter aftertaste. Give me an alarmist California-Washington state  hoppy brew any day, even if it dehydrates. But surely you all will misinterpret this as whining. I&#8217;m not whining, no sir. I&#8217;m not.</p>

	<p>Best,</p>

	<p>D</p>
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