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	<title>Comments on: The Dark Depths of Comics History</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Reinder Dijkhuis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/comment-page-1/#comment-293579</link>
		<dc:creator>Reinder Dijkhuis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 23:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13518#comment-293579</guid>
		<description>Well at least the guy looks like he has something in his pants. Amazing how many superhero artists can&#039;t even get that right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well at least the guy looks like he has something in his pants. Amazing how many superhero artists can&#8217;t even get that right.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/comment-page-1/#comment-293391</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 19:25:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13518#comment-293391</guid>
		<description>Well, yeah, it&#039;s Marvel.

Stick to DC, says me, especially Vertigo. Sandman, Hellblazer, Doom Patrol, Shade, 100 Bullets -- what Marvel stuff comes even close?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, yeah, it&#8217;s Marvel.</p>

	<p>Stick to DC, says me, especially Vertigo. Sandman, Hellblazer, Doom Patrol, Shade, 100 Bullets&#8212;what Marvel stuff comes even close?</p>
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		<title>By: Keir</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/comment-page-1/#comment-293334</link>
		<dc:creator>Keir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 02:37:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13518#comment-293334</guid>
		<description>i mean the soldier, who&#039;s clearly a bit off. 

And yes, it may be that the artist thinks he is drawing something well, but he really isn&#039;t. Intentional choices can be mistakes too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>i mean the soldier, who&#8217;s clearly a bit off.</p>

	<p>And yes, it may be that the artist thinks he is drawing something well, but he really isn&#8217;t. Intentional choices can be mistakes too.</p>
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		<title>By: Sperry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/comment-page-1/#comment-293262</link>
		<dc:creator>Sperry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:04:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13518#comment-293262</guid>
		<description>Also, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.flickr.com/photos/26425820@N06/3735620913/in/set-72157621696669848/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;  Jennifer getting frisky with a giant floating parasauropholus &lt;/a&gt;  is without question my favorite. It raises so many important questions:

Why is the parasauropholus so enamored with her... erm... anatomy? Is the dino, in fact, prying her legs apart with his claws? Is he actually floating, or just balancing on his tail? Isn&#039;t She-hulk afraid she is about to fall of that cliff? When did Wasp acquire her sense voyeurism? And what is with all of the pearl necklaces?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Also, <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/26425820@N06/3735620913/in/set-72157621696669848/" rel="nofollow">  Jennifer getting frisky with a giant floating parasauropholus </a>  is without question my favorite. It raises so many important questions:</p>

	<p>Why is the parasauropholus so enamored with her&#8230; erm&#8230; anatomy? Is the dino, in fact, prying her legs apart with his claws? Is he actually floating, or just balancing on his tail? Isn&#8217;t She-hulk afraid she is about to fall of that cliff? When did Wasp acquire her sense voyeurism? And what is with all of the pearl necklaces?</p>
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		<title>By: Sperry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/comment-page-1/#comment-293260</link>
		<dc:creator>Sperry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13518#comment-293260</guid>
		<description>31: &quot;I don’t think it’s credible that he was trying to draw realistic figures in realistic poses and just happening to get them wrong through inability or haste&quot;

Actually, &quot;inability and haste&quot; is exactly what happening. I mean for chrissakes the man can&#039;t draw feet (like at all). Or hands. Or guns/swords. He certainly can&#039;t draw hands holding guns/swords. He lacks a basic understanding of scale and perspective. The exaggerated musculature and the pouch addiction might just be silly stylistic choices, but the 17 foot Doc and the mouth full of teeth indicate suggest he&#039;s probably just incompetent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>31: &#8220;I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s credible that he was trying to draw realistic figures in realistic poses and just happening to get them wrong through inability or haste&#8221;</p>

	<p>Actually, &#8220;inability and haste&#8221; is exactly what happening. I mean for chrissakes the man can&#8217;t draw feet (like at all). Or hands. Or guns/swords. He certainly can&#8217;t draw hands holding guns/swords. He lacks a basic understanding of scale and perspective. The exaggerated musculature and the pouch addiction might just be silly stylistic choices, but the 17 foot Doc and the mouth full of teeth indicate suggest he&#8217;s probably just incompetent.</p>
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		<title>By: Gareth Rees</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/comment-page-1/#comment-293241</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth Rees</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13518#comment-293241</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re referring to the paving slabs in the lower left of Jacques-Louis David&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/David_-_Belisarius.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;Belisarius Begging for Alms&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;, right? What makes it plausible that this could be a mistake is that it&#039;s a minor element of the work. But in the case of Liefeld, the exaggerated figures and distorted poses are the centerpiece of his work: I don&#039;t think it&#039;s credible that he was trying to draw realistic figures in realistic poses and just happening to get them wrong through inability or haste. He was working in the context of the Marvel house style, which became more and more exaggerated over time. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thevalve.org/go/valve/article/reading_comics_event_exaggeration/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&#039;s Adam Roberts&lt;/a&gt; arguing that this evolution in style can be considered a kind of aesthetic arms race (pun intended): when every male character in your comic universe is already heavily muscled, how do you make it clear that your hero is super? when every female character already has the proportions of a pin-up, how do you indicate the heroine&#039;s sexiness?

&lt;i&gt;there’s an obvious way to talk about mistakes: would the work be better if it were different?&lt;/i&gt;

Isn&#039;t this just begging the question?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You&#8217;re referring to the paving slabs in the lower left of Jacques-Louis David&#8217;s <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/David_-_Belisarius.jpg" rel="nofollow"><i>Belisarius Begging for Alms</i></a>, right? What makes it plausible that this could be a mistake is that it&#8217;s a minor element of the work. But in the case of Liefeld, the exaggerated figures and distorted poses are the centerpiece of his work: I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s credible that he was trying to draw realistic figures in realistic poses and just happening to get them wrong through inability or haste. He was working in the context of the Marvel house style, which became more and more exaggerated over time. <a href="http://www.thevalve.org/go/valve/article/reading_comics_event_exaggeration/" rel="nofollow">Here&#8217;s Adam Roberts</a> arguing that this evolution in style can be considered a kind of aesthetic arms race (pun intended): when every male character in your comic universe is already heavily muscled, how do you make it clear that your hero is super? when every female character already has the proportions of a pin-up, how do you indicate the heroine&#8217;s sexiness?</p>

	<p><i>there&#8217;s an obvious way to talk about mistakes: would the work be better if it were different?</i></p>

	<p>Isn&#8217;t this just begging the question?</p>
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		<title>By: Keir</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/comment-page-1/#comment-293238</link>
		<dc:creator>Keir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13518#comment-293238</guid>
		<description>Well, in the context of the rest of Ingres work etc. etc. it clearly isn&#039;t wrong; after all one can&#039;t imagine that Ingres would have improved the work by shortening that back. 

(But if you look at the Belisarius, David clearly Got It Wrong, because one can imagine it being improved were he to get the perspective right.)

So quite clearly if you look at the work sensibly there&#039;s an obvious way to talk about mistakes: would the work be better if it were different? And quite obviously those works would be; the errors aren&#039;t valid artistic choices, they&#039;re incompetence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, in the context of the rest of Ingres work etc. etc. it clearly isn&#8217;t wrong; after all one can&#8217;t imagine that Ingres would have improved the work by shortening that back.</p>

	<p>(But if you look at the Belisarius, David clearly Got It Wrong, because one can imagine it being improved were he to get the perspective right.)</p>

	<p>So quite clearly if you look at the work sensibly there&#8217;s an obvious way to talk about mistakes: would the work be better if it were different? And quite obviously those works would be; the errors aren&#8217;t valid artistic choices, they&#8217;re incompetence.</p>
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		<title>By: Gareth Rees</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/comment-page-1/#comment-293235</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth Rees</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13518#comment-293235</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But if I look at a 17xx entry in the Prix de Rome and say: he fucked the perspective up, that is a valid criticism&lt;/i&gt;

Yes, perhaps. But this rather depends on knowing that it&#039;s a &quot;fuck up&quot;: that the artist intended to get the perspective right, and failed through incompetence. Usually the situation is a bit less clear than that: to take an example from a Prix de Rome winner, Ingres&#039; &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Grande_Odalisque&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;Grand Odalisque&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt; features a female figure with distorted proportions (a bit more subtly than Liefeld&#039;s women, but still). Sheer incompetence or mannerist allusion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But if I look at a 17xx entry in the Prix de Rome and say: he fucked the perspective up, that is a valid criticism</i></p>

	<p>Yes, perhaps. But this rather depends on knowing that it&#8217;s a &#8220;fuck up&#8221;: that the artist intended to get the perspective right, and failed through incompetence. Usually the situation is a bit less clear than that: to take an example from a Prix de Rome winner, Ingres&#8217; <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Grande_Odalisque" rel="nofollow"><i>Grand Odalisque</i></a> features a female figure with distorted proportions (a bit more subtly than Liefeld&#8217;s women, but still). Sheer incompetence or mannerist allusion?</p>
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		<title>By: Salient</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/comment-page-1/#comment-293223</link>
		<dc:creator>Salient</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 03:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13518#comment-293223</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;So, which page is your favorite and why? (Defend your answer.)&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.flickr.com/photos/bpx/147773331/in/photostream/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Page 19.&lt;/a&gt; Why? Just let the costuming on the female character sink into your consciousness for a little while.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>So, which page is your favorite and why? (Defend your answer.)</i></p>

	<p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/bpx/147773331/in/photostream/" rel="nofollow">Page 19.</a> Why? Just let the costuming on the female character sink into your consciousness for a little while.</p>
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		<title>By: Keir</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/comment-page-1/#comment-293218</link>
		<dc:creator>Keir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 02:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13518#comment-293218</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Pointing out that comic book characters are absurdly exaggerated is great fun, but if you say “this is bad because it’s unrealistic” then you’re making the same kind of complaint as someone who says that Picasso’s Demoiselles d’Avignon are bad because they don’t look like real women. You need a critique that’s a bit more sophisticated than that.&lt;/i&gt;

But if I look at a 17xx entry in the Prix de Rome and say: he fucked the perspective up, that is a valid criticism. If I say the same about Klee, it is not. Clearly we use different standards to evaluate different art works.

It isn&#039;t absurd exaggeration, it is incompetence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Pointing out that comic book characters are absurdly exaggerated is great fun, but if you say &#8220;this is bad because it&#8217;s unrealistic&#8221; then you&#8217;re making the same kind of complaint as someone who says that Picasso&#8217;s Demoiselles d&#8217;Avignon are bad because they don&#8217;t look like real women. You need a critique that&#8217;s a bit more sophisticated than that.</i></p>

	<p>But if I look at a 17xx entry in the Prix de Rome and say: he fucked the perspective up, that is a valid criticism. If I say the same about Klee, it is not. Clearly we use different standards to evaluate different art works.</p>

	<p>It isn&#8217;t absurd exaggeration, it is incompetence.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell Arben Fox</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/comment-page-1/#comment-293215</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell Arben Fox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 02:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13518#comment-293215</guid>
		<description>Oh Gareth, thank you for that. Subjecting 40 examples of atrocious Liefeld art to mockery was exactly the laugh I needed this evening. I stopped collecting comics in the late 80s, just before Liefeld and other initiated the incoherent, over-the-top, ultra-violent, bigger-is-better madness which mainstream American comics still haven&#039;t recovered from, and perhaps never will. I&#039;m so glad I got out when I did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh Gareth, thank you for that. Subjecting 40 examples of atrocious Liefeld art to mockery was exactly the laugh I needed this evening. I stopped collecting comics in the late 80s, just before Liefeld and other initiated the incoherent, over-the-top, ultra-violent, bigger-is-better madness which mainstream American comics still haven&#8217;t recovered from, and perhaps never will. I&#8217;m so glad I got out when I did.</p>
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		<title>By: Substance McGravitas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/comment-page-1/#comment-293198</link>
		<dc:creator>Substance McGravitas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13518#comment-293198</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;“this is bad because it’s unrealistic”&lt;/blockquote&gt;Nobody precisely said that.  These characters represent idealized portraits of us, and few feel their ideal form is tumorous monster.  Obviously there&#039;s a degree of stylization involved in any comic book venture, but Liefeld&#039;s Captain America is the alien monster everybody else&#039;s Captain America fights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>&#8220;this is bad because it&#8217;s unrealistic&#8221;</blockquote>Nobody precisely said that.  These characters represent idealized portraits of us, and few feel their ideal form is tumorous monster.  Obviously there&#8217;s a degree of stylization involved in any comic book venture, but Liefeld&#8217;s Captain America is the alien monster everybody else&#8217;s Captain America fights.</p>
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		<title>By: Gareth Rees</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/comment-page-1/#comment-293196</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth Rees</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 20:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13518#comment-293196</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Why do you need distortion for that?&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m referring to &lt;a href=&quot;http://progressiveboink.com/b/images/rob/liefeldgirl1.gif&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this kind of drawing&lt;/a&gt; of a highly distorted figure in an anatomically impossible pose (found via the amusingly cruel &lt;a href=&quot;http://progressiveboink.com/archive/robliefeld.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;40 Worst Rob Liefeld Drawings&lt;/a&gt;).

Pointing out that comic book characters are absurdly exaggerated is great fun, but if you say &quot;this is bad &lt;i&gt;because&lt;/i&gt; it&#039;s unrealistic&quot; then you&#039;re making the same kind of complaint as someone who says that Picasso&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Demoiselles d&#039;Avignon&lt;/i&gt; are bad because they don&#039;t look like real women. You need a critique that&#039;s a bit more sophisticated than that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Why do you need distortion for that?</i></p>

	<p>I&#8217;m referring to <a href="http://progressiveboink.com/b/images/rob/liefeldgirl1.gif" rel="nofollow">this kind of drawing</a> of a highly distorted figure in an anatomically impossible pose (found via the amusingly cruel <a href="http://progressiveboink.com/archive/robliefeld.html" rel="nofollow">40 Worst Rob Liefeld Drawings</a>).</p>

	<p>Pointing out that comic book characters are absurdly exaggerated is great fun, but if you say &#8220;this is bad <i>because</i> it&#8217;s unrealistic&#8221; then you&#8217;re making the same kind of complaint as someone who says that Picasso&#8217;s <i>Demoiselles d&#8217;Avignon</i> are bad because they don&#8217;t look like real women. You need a critique that&#8217;s a bit more sophisticated than that.</p>
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		<title>By: SusanC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/comment-page-1/#comment-293194</link>
		<dc:creator>SusanC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:56:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13518#comment-293194</guid>
		<description>But ... why have a special swimsuit issue when &lt;i&gt;every&lt;/i&gt; issue has guys in lycra suits?

My vote is for &quot;Black Bolt and Medusa&quot; by George Perez. Medua&#039;s hair wraps around her body in way reminiscent of Mucha, except that it looks &lt;i&gt;wrong&lt;/i&gt; somehow, especially where the hair extensions join her head. Meanwhile, Black Bolt sits on a pile of rocks overlooking the sea that could have been lifted out of a Japanese print. His arms bulge unhealthily, as if he has a malignant tumour rather than muscles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But &#8230; why have a special swimsuit issue when <i>every</i> issue has guys in lycra suits?</p>

	<p>My vote is for &#8220;Black Bolt and Medusa&#8221; by George Perez. Medua&#8217;s hair wraps around her body in way reminiscent of Mucha, except that it looks <i>wrong</i> somehow, especially where the hair extensions join her head. Meanwhile, Black Bolt sits on a pile of rocks overlooking the sea that could have been lifted out of a Japanese print. His arms bulge unhealthily, as if he has a malignant tumour rather than muscles.</p>
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		<title>By: Substance McGravitas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/28/the-dark-depths-of-comics-history/comment-page-1/#comment-293193</link>
		<dc:creator>Substance McGravitas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:51:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13518#comment-293193</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Give the boys what they want.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.colleencoover.net/?page_id=10&quot; title=&quot;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;And the girls.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>Give the boys what they want.</blockquote><a href="http://www.colleencoover.net/?page_id=10" title="" rel="nofollow">And the girls.</a></p>
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