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	<title>Comments on: International Law Again</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/29/international-law-again/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/29/international-law-again/comment-page-1/#comment-293519</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 10:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13532#comment-293519</guid>
		<description>@Awamory   &quot;Flawed&quot; is such a useful word, isn&#039;t it?

Is Report X flawless? No, so it must be &quot;flawed&quot;
What kind of flaws? The data collection procedure isn&#039;t fully specified, and people who don&#039;t like the conclusions have criticised the report
What can we conclude?  Whatever beliefs we held in the first place don&#039;t need revision, since evidence against them is invariably flawed</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@Awamory   &#8220;Flawed&#8221; is such a useful word, isn&#8217;t it?</p>

	<p>Is Report X flawless? No, so it must be &#8220;flawed&#8221;<br />
What kind of flaws? The data collection procedure isn&#8217;t fully specified, and people who don&#8217;t like the conclusions have criticised the report<br />
What can we conclude?  Whatever beliefs we held in the first place don&#8217;t need revision, since evidence against them is invariably flawed</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Johnson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/29/international-law-again/comment-page-1/#comment-293462</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 00:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13532#comment-293462</guid>
		<description>&quot; For the Gaza War, it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that observers’ positions on the law-of-war violations of either side is colored by their sense of the justice of that side’s cause. &quot;

Posner&#039;s comment here probably says more about himself than it does about the world of human rights observers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8221; For the Gaza War, it&#8217;s hard to avoid the conclusion that observers&#8217; positions on the law-of-war violations of either side is colored by their sense of the justice of that side&#8217;s cause. &#8221;</p>

	<p>Posner&#8217;s comment here probably says more about himself than it does about the world of human rights observers.</p>
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		<title>By: Awamory</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/29/international-law-again/comment-page-1/#comment-293382</link>
		<dc:creator>Awamory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:02:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13532#comment-293382</guid>
		<description>The main question - is Goldstone report flawed or not? And it seems it is. Where his methods for evidence collection accurate? No, they weren&#039;t . There is enough detailed analysis in the web which is proving that. So it is neither about justice and international law, nor about human rights protection. Just a pure politics. One more front in the Arab-Israeli conflict, that&#039;s all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The main question &#8211; is Goldstone report flawed or not? And it seems it is. Where his methods for evidence collection accurate? No, they weren&#8217;t . There is enough detailed analysis in the web which is proving that. So it is neither about justice and international law, nor about human rights protection. Just a pure politics. One more front in the Arab-Israeli conflict, that&#8217;s all.</p>
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		<title>By: Conor</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/29/international-law-again/comment-page-1/#comment-293374</link>
		<dc:creator>Conor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13532#comment-293374</guid>
		<description>I find an almost complete divergence from my experiences working on human rights issues within and around the UN system over the last 20 odd years and the almost pathological approach that some commentators take to this issue.  Most of us see the development of international human rights law as work in progress; its critics seem almost completely incoherent in what they would prefer to see in its place.

The UN Human Rights Council is certainly an extremely politicised body and there is almost unanimous agreement amongst human rights activists that it is guilty of double-standards.  The UN Human Rights Committee, the Special Rapporteurs and the other mechanisms are much more objective in their work.  That does not mean you should not keep lobbying its members to take action on human rights issues - nor recognise that some good practice is emerging at this level (the Periodic Review Process, for example, has been quite useful at building constructive dialogue).

But both the UNGA and the Security Council are guilty of the same double-standards.  In this they just reflect their members interests and that is just the way the world works.   As far as I am aware the Security Council has never passed a resolution which the Israeli government has opposed, because it can rely on the US veto for support.  

People who attack the UNHRC for its anti-Israel bias would have more of a point if they could show that they accepted the criticisms made by other parts of the UN human rights system which are widely agreeed to be credible.  And proposals for reform of the Council - and the wider UN-based system of international law - also need to address the P5 vetos.  Similarly, if the US and Israel were to sign up to the International Criminal Court then they would be showing that they were not afraid of judicial investigations into allegations of war crimes and crimes against humanity that have been made against their forces.  Although I have some criticisms of the ICC, there is no evidence that it will launch malicious or frivolous prosecutions.

What comes across in the general thrust of arguments like those of Eric Posner is just a knee-jerk support for Israel against any criticism on human rights grounds and a determined to malign anyone who dares raise an alternative viewpoint.  The recent attacks on HRW and Amnesty from what I take to be his co-thinkers seem to have the same motivation and are actually self-defeating in their virulence and pettiness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I find an almost complete divergence from my experiences working on human rights issues within and around the UN system over the last 20 odd years and the almost pathological approach that some commentators take to this issue.  Most of us see the development of international human rights law as work in progress; its critics seem almost completely incoherent in what they would prefer to see in its place.</p>

	<p>The <span class="caps">UN </span>Human Rights Council is certainly an extremely politicised body and there is almost unanimous agreement amongst human rights activists that it is guilty of double-standards.  The <span class="caps">UN </span>Human Rights Committee, the Special Rapporteurs and the other mechanisms are much more objective in their work.  That does not mean you should not keep lobbying its members to take action on human rights issues &#8211; nor recognise that some good practice is emerging at this level (the Periodic Review Process, for example, has been quite useful at building constructive dialogue).</p>

	<p>But both the <span class="caps">UNGA</span> and the Security Council are guilty of the same double-standards.  In this they just reflect their members interests and that is just the way the world works.   As far as I am aware the Security Council has never passed a resolution which the Israeli government has opposed, because it can rely on the US veto for support.</p>

	<p>People who attack the <span class="caps">UNHRC</span> for its anti-Israel bias would have more of a point if they could show that they accepted the criticisms made by other parts of the UN human rights system which are widely agreeed to be credible.  And proposals for reform of the Council &#8211; and the wider UN-based system of international law &#8211; also need to address the P5 vetos.  Similarly, if the US and Israel were to sign up to the International Criminal Court then they would be showing that they were not afraid of judicial investigations into allegations of war crimes and crimes against humanity that have been made against their forces.  Although I have some criticisms of the <span class="caps">ICC</span>, there is no evidence that it will launch malicious or frivolous prosecutions.</p>

	<p>What comes across in the general thrust of arguments like those of Eric Posner is just a knee-jerk support for Israel against any criticism on human rights grounds and a determined to malign anyone who dares raise an alternative viewpoint.  The recent attacks on <span class="caps">HRW</span> and Amnesty from what I take to be his co-thinkers seem to have the same motivation and are actually self-defeating in their virulence and pettiness.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/29/international-law-again/comment-page-1/#comment-293338</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 06:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13532#comment-293338</guid>
		<description>&quot;no-one has come up with a generally convincing account of what states’ interests are.&quot;

Assuming methodological individualism as a starting point (which I assume Posner would do in discussions of domestic political issues) that&#039;s because the idea of &quot;states&#039; interests&quot; is incoherent, unless the state is a dictatorship or (relaxing the individualism assumption a bit) controlled by an oligarchy so tight that conflicts among its members can be disregarded on the international scene. 

Some of the time (for example, in conflicts over claims to resources) the state might be regarded as a unitary agent for interests shared by the community as a whole.But, for human rights issues, the story is much more complicated. 

With an independent dictatorship (Burma for example), the state does indeed have a clear interest in oppressing its subjects, and the only leverage against this is sanctions, such as aid withdrawal, imposed by the &quot;international community&quot;. So, a report doesn&#039;t need to do much more than note the abuses and hope that the climate in which it is launched will favor a response.

But in a state that is at least partially democratic, or a client state of a democracy, human rights issues will be the subject of domestic dispute with the state (or its patron) and the reports of a human rights body will be used, and, inevitably, attacked as part of domestic politics. So, it makes sense to write reports of this kind in a way that will most embarrass the government concerned, ideally without going so far OTT as to lose credibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;no-one has come up with a generally convincing account of what states&#8217; interests are.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Assuming methodological individualism as a starting point (which I assume Posner would do in discussions of domestic political issues) that&#8217;s because the idea of &#8220;states&#8217; interests&#8221; is incoherent, unless the state is a dictatorship or (relaxing the individualism assumption a bit) controlled by an oligarchy so tight that conflicts among its members can be disregarded on the international scene.</p>

	<p>Some of the time (for example, in conflicts over claims to resources) the state might be regarded as a unitary agent for interests shared by the community as a whole.But, for human rights issues, the story is much more complicated.</p>

	<p>With an independent dictatorship (Burma for example), the state does indeed have a clear interest in oppressing its subjects, and the only leverage against this is sanctions, such as aid withdrawal, imposed by the &#8220;international community&#8221;. So, a report doesn&#8217;t need to do much more than note the abuses and hope that the climate in which it is launched will favor a response.</p>

	<p>But in a state that is at least partially democratic, or a client state of a democracy, human rights issues will be the subject of domestic dispute with the state (or its patron) and the reports of a human rights body will be used, and, inevitably, attacked as part of domestic politics. So, it makes sense to write reports of this kind in a way that will most embarrass the government concerned, ideally without going so far <span class="caps">OTT</span> as to lose credibility.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Otto Pohl</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/29/international-law-again/comment-page-1/#comment-293337</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Otto Pohl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 05:14:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13532#comment-293337</guid>
		<description>The fact that human rights violators that are not good global citizens like Israel are more likely to be targeted than those that are makes sense. This was seen to a much greater extent with UN treatment of South Africa under apartheid than has ever been the case with Israel. The argument seems to be that  because other violators of human rights that are better global citizens are not condemned as oftern as Israel that this somehow negates all violations of human rights by the Israeli state. Yet many of same people who argue against the Goldstone Report are self described &quot;progressives&quot; who would never have made a similar argument in favor of the old South African regime.  Rather an inverse logic seesm to work among US politicians, media and &quot;intellectuals.&quot; Israel can never be condemned because of the ideological committment the US establishment including the Democratic Party and the vast majority of of self styled &quot;progressive&quot; academics  have to the Zionist project.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The fact that human rights violators that are not good global citizens like Israel are more likely to be targeted than those that are makes sense. This was seen to a much greater extent with UN treatment of South Africa under apartheid than has ever been the case with Israel. The argument seems to be that  because other violators of human rights that are better global citizens are not condemned as oftern as Israel that this somehow negates all violations of human rights by the Israeli state. Yet many of same people who argue against the Goldstone Report are self described &#8220;progressives&#8221; who would never have made a similar argument in favor of the old South African regime.  Rather an inverse logic seesm to work among US politicians, media and &#8220;intellectuals.&#8221; Israel can never be condemned because of the ideological committment the US establishment including the Democratic Party and the vast majority of of self styled &#8220;progressive&#8221; academics  have to the Zionist project.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/29/international-law-again/comment-page-1/#comment-293322</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 01:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13532#comment-293322</guid>
		<description>Matt - thanks - I had spotted that I had used the wrong acronym by force of habit, but had thought that I had expunged the mistake. Will expunge further (but yes, you are right).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Matt &#8211; thanks &#8211; I had spotted that I had used the wrong acronym by force of habit, but had thought that I had expunged the mistake. Will expunge further (but yes, you are right).</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/10/29/international-law-again/comment-page-1/#comment-293321</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 01:25:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13532#comment-293321</guid>
		<description>Henry- I&#039;ve just looked at this very, very quickly and will have to read it closely, but I wanted to check on something- sometimes you use &quot;UNHCR&quot; while the quoted piece (and once, at least, you) use &quot;UNCHR&quot;  My understanding (and the usage I&#039;m familiar with) is that the UNHCR is the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, while the UNCHR is the UN Committee on Human Rights.  I think, from my quick look, that it&#039;s the later you mean, isn&#039;t it?  I just want to be sure I&#039;m getting what your at, so wanted to have this clarified, if you don&#039;t mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Henry- I&#8217;ve just looked at this very, very quickly and will have to read it closely, but I wanted to check on something- sometimes you use &#8220;UNHCR&#8221; while the quoted piece (and once, at least, you) use &#8220;UNCHR&#8221;  My understanding (and the usage I&#8217;m familiar with) is that the <span class="caps">UNHCR</span> is the <span class="caps">UN </span>High Commissioner for Refugees, while the <span class="caps">UNCHR</span> is the <span class="caps">UN </span>Committee on Human Rights.  I think, from my quick look, that it&#8217;s the later you mean, isn&#8217;t it?  I just want to be sure I&#8217;m getting what your at, so wanted to have this clarified, if you don&#8217;t mind.</p>
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