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	<title>Comments on: Armistice Day</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Salient</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/comment-page-2/#comment-295656</link>
		<dc:creator>Salient</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13660#comment-295656</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It wasn’t a story set in the Irish civil war, was it?&lt;/i&gt;

It... might be, but if I recall correctly it was a short enough story to ensure the setting was barely mentioned.

I really wish I could recall the title or author, but every time I try to the brain thinks &quot;Ray Bradbury! Orson Scott Card!&quot; and can&#039;t get past those two folks. Also mixed in the muddled memory: a science fiction story &quot;________ for Thunder&quot; and a story about people who get an extra year of life if they kill someone with a blue-painted hand. (Sigh.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>It wasn&#8217;t a story set in the Irish civil war, was it?</i></p>

	<p>It&#8230; might be, but if I recall correctly it was a short enough story to ensure the setting was barely mentioned.</p>

	<p>I really wish I could recall the title or author, but every time I try to the brain thinks &#8220;Ray Bradbury! Orson Scott Card!&#8221; and can&#8217;t get past those two folks. Also mixed in the muddled memory: a science fiction story &#8220;________ for Thunder&#8221; and a story about people who get an extra year of life if they kill someone with a blue-painted hand. (Sigh.)</p>
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		<title>By: virgil xenophon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/comment-page-2/#comment-295654</link>
		<dc:creator>virgil xenophon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:25:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13660#comment-295654</guid>
		<description>Doctor Science/LFC:

I could be very wrong, but if memory serves, the views on the possibility of protracted bloody warfare held by the German military was based on the fact that they had sent more military observers to the American Civil War than any other nation and covered it pretty much top to bottom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Doctor Science/LFC:</p>

	<p>I could be very wrong, but if memory serves, the views on the possibility of protracted bloody warfare held by the German military was based on the fact that they had sent more military observers to the American Civil War than any other nation and covered it pretty much top to bottom.</p>
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		<title>By: EWI</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/comment-page-2/#comment-295530</link>
		<dc:creator>EWI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 23:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13660#comment-295530</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;When I was very young (I am still very young) and in middle school, someone gave me a story to read in which a militant sniper-soldier who is nearly killed when he gives his top-of-building position away lighting a cigarette; he then snipes and annihilates somebody else, walks down to street level while reminiscing about how much he loves his family, and then on a whim (you can see where this is going) turns over the body of the guy he shot, to see the face of his brother.&lt;/i&gt;

It wasn&#039;t a story set in the Irish civil war, was it? Sounds very familiar to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>When I was very young (I am still very young) and in middle school, someone gave me a story to read in which a militant sniper-soldier who is nearly killed when he gives his top-of-building position away lighting a cigarette; he then snipes and annihilates somebody else, walks down to street level while reminiscing about how much he loves his family, and then on a whim (you can see where this is going) turns over the body of the guy he shot, to see the face of his brother.</i></p>

	<p>It wasn&#8217;t a story set in the Irish civil war, was it? Sounds very familiar to me.</p>
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		<title>By: roy belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/comment-page-2/#comment-295481</link>
		<dc:creator>roy belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13660#comment-295481</guid>
		<description>This is &lt;a href=&quot;http://tinyurl.com/yjf9ftk&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;modern warfare&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This is <a href="http://tinyurl.com/yjf9ftk" rel="nofollow">modern warfare</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Wrye</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/comment-page-2/#comment-295476</link>
		<dc:creator>Wrye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13660#comment-295476</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s pretty clear that we can all agree, at least, that Belgium started the war with it&#039;s insistence on occupying the Congo, and then being blatantly smaller and weaker than its neighbours, then luring an innocent and naive German army across its border into what amounts to a sex-sting operation with the pure-of-heart British, who completely bewildered, stumbled into a destructive war they had no interest in fighting, in the heart of their pacifist Empire that had somehow accidentally grown to cover about a third of the world.

Let us hear no more about &quot;Innocent Belgians&quot;, bah, it makes me sick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think it&#8217;s pretty clear that we can all agree, at least, that Belgium started the war with it&#8217;s insistence on occupying the Congo, and then being blatantly smaller and weaker than its neighbours, then luring an innocent and naive German army across its border into what amounts to a sex-sting operation with the pure-of-heart British, who completely bewildered, stumbled into a destructive war they had no interest in fighting, in the heart of their pacifist Empire that had somehow accidentally grown to cover about a third of the world.</p>

	<p>Let us hear no more about &#8220;Innocent Belgians&#8221;, bah, it makes me sick.</p>
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		<title>By: Doctor Science</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/comment-page-2/#comment-295268</link>
		<dc:creator>Doctor Science</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13660#comment-295268</guid>
		<description>LFC:

Thanks for the refs, I&#039;ll look into it. If I can.

May I take a moment to say how extremely annoying, self-defeating, and contrary to the spirit of the scholarly enterprise I find the paywalls around academic publication?  Thank you. 

Back to your argument. Accepting for the moment that it is true (which is not implausible on the face of it, IMHO), the question becomes why did it do no good?

That is, it strikes me as plausible that in 1914 the German General Staff had a better grasp of the coming realities than either (a) their equivalents in other countries, or (b) their political leaders. Why did their understanding have no effect on what Germany actually did? Was this process similar to what the US military has done for the past 8 years, including e.g. Powell&#039;s work to undermine the Powell Doctrine.

&lt;i&gt;It seems to be an enduring character of many militarists to see the world as their movie with them as the stars. A movie in which the death of “extras” is of no concern.&lt;/i&gt;

Agreed, though this attitude is much, much older than the movies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">LFC</span>:</p>

	<p>Thanks for the refs, I&#8217;ll look into it. If I can.</p>

	<p>May I take a moment to say how extremely annoying, self-defeating, and contrary to the spirit of the scholarly enterprise I find the paywalls around academic publication?  Thank you.</p>

	<p>Back to your argument. Accepting for the moment that it is true (which is not implausible on the face of it, <span class="caps">IMHO</span>), the question becomes why did it do no good?</p>

	<p>That is, it strikes me as plausible that in 1914 the German General Staff had a better grasp of the coming realities than either (a) their equivalents in other countries, or (b) their political leaders. Why did their understanding have no effect on what Germany actually did? Was this process similar to what the US military has done for the past 8 years, including e.g. Powell&#8217;s work to undermine the Powell Doctrine.</p>

	<p><i>It seems to be an enduring character of many militarists to see the world as their movie with them as the stars. A movie in which the death of &#8220;extras&#8221; is of no concern.</i></p>

	<p>Agreed, though this attitude is much, much older than the movies.</p>
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		<title>By: Shawn Crowley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/comment-page-2/#comment-295240</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn Crowley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:05:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13660#comment-295240</guid>
		<description>The final episode of &quot;Black Adder&quot; has the characters going &quot;over the top&quot; to certain, pointless death. After all the ribald humor of the series, this ending brought me to tears. It showed that trench warfare could grind on and on in part because the lives of ordinary men were held in such low regard.

It seems to be an enduring character of many militarists to see the world as their movie with them as the stars. A movie in which the death of &quot;extras&quot; is of no concern. Henry Kissinger and Dick Cheney come to mind as contemporary examples. Tangentially, I&#039;ve never quite managed to assess the factor of so many heads of state in WWI being related by blood or marriage. Family feud?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The final episode of &#8220;Black Adder&#8221; has the characters going &#8220;over the top&#8221; to certain, pointless death. After all the ribald humor of the series, this ending brought me to tears. It showed that trench warfare could grind on and on in part because the lives of ordinary men were held in such low regard.</p>

	<p>It seems to be an enduring character of many militarists to see the world as their movie with them as the stars. A movie in which the death of &#8220;extras&#8221; is of no concern. Henry Kissinger and Dick Cheney come to mind as contemporary examples. Tangentially, I&#8217;ve never quite managed to assess the factor of so many heads of state in <span class="caps">WWI</span> being related by blood or marriage. Family feud?</p>
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		<title>By: LFC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/comment-page-2/#comment-295196</link>
		<dc:creator>LFC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13660#comment-295196</guid>
		<description>Dr. Science @85:
If by &quot;in power&quot; you meant only civilian leaders, that&#039;s one thing. If you meant military leaders, that may be another thing. There is apparently a serious argument -- whether right or wrong I don&#039;t know -- that German military leaders thought the war would probably not be short. 
From the article I referenced earlier:
&quot;Newly available and previously overlooked evidence indicates that German [military] leaders sent their forces into battle aware that the coming war would likely be protracted. This...has been referred to as the &#039;F&#246;rster thesis&#039;...after the Swiss-based German historian Stig F&#246;rster.... [He] argues that German generals were remarkably uniform in their view that the next European war would likely be a costly struggle.&quot;
If you google &quot;the new history of world war I&quot; you will quickly get links (paywalled and Project Muse) to the K. Lieber article and the subsequent exchange with J. Snyder and others. 
I am not a historian of WWI and I have no interest in getting into a debate on the merits of this. I am not saying it is right. I am just saying the argument is out there and being made by non-cranks. I will let others debate it if they&#039;re so inclined.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dr. Science @85:<br />
If by &#8220;in power&#8221; you meant only civilian leaders, that&#8217;s one thing. If you meant military leaders, that may be another thing. There is apparently a serious argument&#8212;whether right or wrong I don&#8217;t know&#8212;that German military leaders thought the war would probably not be short.<br />
From the article I referenced earlier:<br />
&#8220;Newly available and previously overlooked evidence indicates that German [military] leaders sent their forces into battle aware that the coming war would likely be protracted. This&#8230;has been referred to as the &#8216;F&ouml;rster thesis&#8217;&#8230;after the Swiss-based German historian Stig F&ouml;rster&#8230;. [He] argues that German generals were remarkably uniform in their view that the next European war would likely be a costly struggle.&#8221;<br />
If you google &#8220;the new history of world war I&#8221; you will quickly get links (paywalled and Project Muse) to the K. Lieber article and the subsequent exchange with J. Snyder and others.<br />
I am not a historian of <span class="caps">WWI</span> and I have no interest in getting into a debate on the merits of this. I am not saying it is right. I am just saying the argument is out there and being made by non-cranks. I will let others debate it if they&#8217;re so inclined.</p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/comment-page-2/#comment-295168</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13660#comment-295168</guid>
		<description>Surely there should be a link to one of the greatest Monty Python sketches ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X2x5H8GPoo
The famous Basingstoke in Westphalia offensive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Surely there should be a link to one of the greatest Monty Python sketches ever: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X2x5H8GPoo" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X2&#215;5H8GPoo</a><br />
The famous Basingstoke in Westphalia offensive.</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/comment-page-2/#comment-295161</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13660#comment-295161</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;By “everyone” I meant “everyone in power”—do you know of exceptions?&lt;/i&gt;

Kitchener is the only exception who comes to mind, and he wasn&#039;t &quot;in power&quot; in August 1914.

&lt;i&gt;Against cabinet opinion, Kitchener correctly predicted a long war that would last at least three years, require huge new armies to defeat Germany, and suffer huge casualties before the end would come. Kitchener stated that the conflict would plumb the depths of manpower &quot;to the last million.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>By &#8220;everyone&#8221; I meant &#8220;everyone in power&#8221;&#8212;do you know of exceptions?</i></p>

	<p>Kitchener is the only exception who comes to mind, and he wasn&#8217;t &#8220;in power&#8221; in August 1914.</p>

	<p><i>Against cabinet opinion, Kitchener correctly predicted a long war that would last at least three years, require huge new armies to defeat Germany, and suffer huge casualties before the end would come. Kitchener stated that the conflict would plumb the depths of manpower &#8220;to the last million.&#8221;</i></p>
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		<title>By: Doctor Science</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/comment-page-2/#comment-295159</link>
		<dc:creator>Doctor Science</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:37:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13660#comment-295159</guid>
		<description>LFC: 

By &quot;everyone&quot; I meant &quot;everyone in power&quot; -- do you know of exceptions? I also have the impression that the bulk of the various populations were pro-war in August 1914, though I&#039;m much less certain about this.

Primary sources for the summer of 1939 have a mood of slipping toward a horrible cliff-edge. Primary sources for the summer of 1914 emphasize the &lt;a href=&quot;http://hnn.us/articles/107160.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;exceptionally lovely weather&lt;/a&gt; -- indeed, I have seen it suggested (... somewhere) that the beautiful weather was one of the contributing factors for the war, because it made people more willing to gather in large crowds, and more optimistic about their own abilities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">LFC</span>:</p>

	<p>By &#8220;everyone&#8221; I meant &#8220;everyone in power&#8221;&#8212;do you know of exceptions? I also have the impression that the bulk of the various populations were pro-war in August 1914, though I&#8217;m much less certain about this.</p>

	<p>Primary sources for the summer of 1939 have a mood of slipping toward a horrible cliff-edge. Primary sources for the summer of 1914 emphasize the <a href="http://hnn.us/articles/107160.html" rel="nofollow">exceptionally lovely weather</a>&#8212;indeed, I have seen it suggested (&#8230; somewhere) that the beautiful weather was one of the contributing factors for the war, because it made people more willing to gather in large crowds, and more optimistic about their own abilities.</p>
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		<title>By: LFC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/comment-page-2/#comment-295136</link>
		<dc:creator>LFC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13660#comment-295136</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s fair to say that historians and others are still arguing about causes of and relative blame for WWI (see eg the Lieber article I cited above @46), but I&#039;m quite sure that Dr. Science&#039;s assertion @72 that &lt;i&gt;everyone&lt;/i&gt; thought the war would be over quickly is incorrect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think it&#8217;s fair to say that historians and others are still arguing about causes of and relative blame for <span class="caps">WWI </span>(see eg the Lieber article I cited above @46), but I&#8217;m quite sure that Dr. Science&#8217;s assertion @72 that <i>everyone</i> thought the war would be over quickly is incorrect.</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/comment-page-2/#comment-295129</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 12:25:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13660#comment-295129</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Bismarck did not actually plan on or believe it in the best interests of Germany to keep Alsace-Lorraine, that was more forced on him by the Kaiser and other politicians of the day.&lt;/i&gt;

&quot;He wept, but he took,&quot; as Frederick said of Maria Theresa.  

I seem to recall that Bismarck&#039;s supposed opposition is largely a creation of his memoirs, but I will have to check on that.

Re: Galbraith:  wowzers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Bismarck did not actually plan on or believe it in the best interests of Germany to keep Alsace-Lorraine, that was more forced on him by the Kaiser and other politicians of the day.</i></p>

	<p>&#8220;He wept, but he took,&#8221; as Frederick said of Maria Theresa.</p>

	<p>I seem to recall that Bismarck&#8217;s supposed opposition is largely a creation of his memoirs, but I will have to check on that.</p>

	<p>Re: Galbraith:  wowzers.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/comment-page-2/#comment-295108</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13660#comment-295108</guid>
		<description>I think the Galbraith-Zaharoff analogy works pretty well. No-one would see Galbraith as the mastermind behind the Iraq war, but he makes an apt symbol of those who promote and profit from wars, and a reminder to the populace at large that they will do the dying while others cash in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think the Galbraith-Zaharoff analogy works pretty well. No-one would see Galbraith as the mastermind behind the Iraq war, but he makes an apt symbol of those who promote and profit from wars, and a reminder to the populace at large that they will do the dying while others cash in.</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisB</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/11/armistice-day-2/comment-page-2/#comment-295106</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13660#comment-295106</guid>
		<description>On the Peter Galbraith thing, he hasn&#039;t actually got the money in his hand - he&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://gulfanalysis.wordpress.com/2009/10/12/more-on-the-galbraith-story-translated-text-of-the-dn-article-about-the-tawke-oilfield/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;suing &lt;/a&gt;for it.

Doesn&#039;t make much difference to the non-disclosure thing, but just in case anybody was thinking of sending him begging letters. 

And  &lt;a href=&quot;http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dk_DPO4V8RA/RojoanEwWAI/AAAAAAAAAFI/5bxhaPTvx_4/s400/zaharoff.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Zaharoff &lt;/a&gt;was probably most influential as the origin of the interwar notion of blaming the prevalence of wars on the Merchants of Death at Vickers and Krupp, which I always thought was a pointless distraction from the actual forces explored in the posts above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On the Peter Galbraith thing, he hasn&#8217;t actually got the money in his hand &#8211; he&#8217;s <a href="http://gulfanalysis.wordpress.com/2009/10/12/more-on-the-galbraith-story-translated-text-of-the-dn-article-about-the-tawke-oilfield/" rel="nofollow">suing </a>for it.</p>

	<p>Doesn&#8217;t make much difference to the non-disclosure thing, but just in case anybody was thinking of sending him begging letters.</p>

	<p>And  <a href="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dk_DPO4V8RA/RojoanEwWAI/AAAAAAAAAFI/5bxhaPTvx_4/s400/zaharoff.jpg" rel="nofollow"> Zaharoff </a>was probably most influential as the origin of the interwar notion of blaming the prevalence of wars on the Merchants of Death at Vickers and Krupp, which I always thought was a pointless distraction from the actual forces explored in the posts above.</p>
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