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	<title>Comments on: I&#8217;m With Stupid</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/comment-page-2/#comment-296915</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 05:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13898#comment-296915</guid>
		<description>Tim, the article mentioning Margalit you link to identifies him as a graduate student. Malhotra is an Assistant Professor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tim, the article mentioning Margalit you link to identifies him as a graduate student. Malhotra is an Assistant Professor.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/comment-page-2/#comment-296888</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 01:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13898#comment-296888</guid>
		<description>I had a look at the new Malhotra/Margalit study Tim links to above. It looks at how variations in how the question is asked affect support for the stimulus. Since the financial crises predated the stimulus by several months, I imagine these surveys are at least as recent as the one cited in Boston Review, if they are indeed different surveys. If so, it&#039;s interesting that they did not bring in what they now say is the important finding from the BR study: that ethnic cuing increases resistance to Wall Street tax cuts. One of the topics of the current study is how cuing affects support for policy, specifically, how blaming one or the other party (i.e., Democrats or  Republicans) for the crisis affects support for the stimulus for people of various party affiliations. It seems their findings regarding cuing on Madoff would fit into their general argument here. I wonder why they were not incorporated? Had they been included, it might have answered one question Tim and I had asked: whether there was a partisan skew to the increase in anti-Wall Street sentiment following the ethnic cuing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I had a look at the new Malhotra/Margalit study Tim links to above. It looks at how variations in how the question is asked affect support for the stimulus. Since the financial crises predated the stimulus by several months, I imagine these surveys are at least as recent as the one cited in Boston Review, if they are indeed different surveys. If so, it&#8217;s interesting that they did not bring in what they now say is the important finding from the BR study: that ethnic cuing increases resistance to Wall Street tax cuts. One of the topics of the current study is how cuing affects support for policy, specifically, how blaming one or the other party (i.e., Democrats or  Republicans) for the crisis affects support for the stimulus for people of various party affiliations. It seems their findings regarding cuing on Madoff would fit into their general argument here. I wonder why they were not incorporated? Had they been included, it might have answered one question Tim and I had asked: whether there was a partisan skew to the increase in anti-Wall Street sentiment following the ethnic cuing.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/comment-page-2/#comment-296886</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13898#comment-296886</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;. Nothing in the study (as far as we know) or article mentioned Israel, so it has no direct relevance. &lt;/i&gt;

Right. There are plenty of examples of linking criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, but this seems to be doing something less common, linking support for financial regulation with anti-semitism. 

If we are going to talk about undeclared interests, Malhotra&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;https://gsbapps.stanford.edu/facultybios/biomain.asp?id=39495749&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;former employment at Goldman Sachs and Citigroup&lt;/a&gt; seems like a better place to start. 

There are some political science folks around CT, no? Would be interesting if someone could ask Mahlotra or Margalit in a professional setting if they planned to publish anything on this, or to release the survey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>. Nothing in the study (as far as we know) or article mentioned Israel, so it has no direct relevance. </i></p>

	<p>Right. There are plenty of examples of linking criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, but this seems to be doing something less common, linking support for financial regulation with anti-semitism.</p>

	<p>If we are going to talk about undeclared interests, Malhotra&#8217;s <a href="https://gsbapps.stanford.edu/facultybios/biomain.asp?id=39495749" rel="nofollow">former employment at Goldman Sachs and Citigroup</a> seems like a better place to start.</p>

	<p>There are some political science folks around CT, no? Would be interesting if someone could ask Mahlotra or Margalit in a professional setting if they planned to publish anything on this, or to release the survey.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/comment-page-2/#comment-296885</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:02:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13898#comment-296885</guid>
		<description>On the question of affecting perceptions of antisemitism generally, one could see a &quot;boy who cried wolf&quot; effect from debunking distorted, exaggerated, or poorly-supported claims. I would say that is that fault of those who made the claims. However, there could also be a &quot;where there&#039;s smoke there&#039;s fire&quot; effect even to debunked claims. Like I said, in the abstract,  you could argue either way. In truth, if we manage to ameliorate the impact of this study, that would be a lot, and I don&#039;t see any potential for what we are doing here to have impact beyond that, and, if so, it&#039;s not easy to say what the impact would even be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On the question of affecting perceptions of antisemitism generally, one could see a &#8220;boy who cried wolf&#8221; effect from debunking distorted, exaggerated, or poorly-supported claims. I would say that is that fault of those who made the claims. However, there could also be a &#8220;where there&#8217;s smoke there&#8217;s fire&#8221; effect even to debunked claims. Like I said, in the abstract,  you could argue either way. In truth, if we manage to ameliorate the impact of this study, that would be a lot, and I don&#8217;t see any potential for what we are doing here to have impact beyond that, and, if so, it&#8217;s not easy to say what the impact would even be.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/comment-page-2/#comment-296884</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 22:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13898#comment-296884</guid>
		<description>I would *definitely* leave Israel out of it. Nothing in the study (as far as we know) or article mentioned Israel, so it has no direct relelvance. Imputing motives is always inferential, and the inference drawn here seems highly tenuous. I think it illogical and unfair when people equate opposition to Israeli policies with antisemitism, and this inference reinforces that association. Malhotra and Margalit attempted to link antisemtism to Democrats and to opposition to tax cuts for Wall Street. Neither of those things has any link to opposition to Israeli policies.

Although practices vary, I think the usual standard is that senior authors are listed first in academic publications. That is why I assumed Malhotra was the lead author, though possibly both are equal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I would <strong>definitely</strong> leave Israel out of it. Nothing in the study (as far as we know) or article mentioned Israel, so it has no direct relelvance. Imputing motives is always inferential, and the inference drawn here seems highly tenuous. I think it illogical and unfair when people equate opposition to Israeli policies with antisemitism, and this inference reinforces that association. Malhotra and Margalit attempted to link antisemtism to Democrats and to opposition to tax cuts for Wall Street. Neither of those things has any link to opposition to Israeli policies.</p>

	<p>Although practices vary, I think the usual standard is that senior authors are listed first in academic publications. That is why I assumed Malhotra was the lead author, though possibly both are equal.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/comment-page-2/#comment-296839</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:03:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13898#comment-296839</guid>
		<description>Martin @75: Not increase antisemitism; cause people to underestimate the level of real anti-semitism, by excessively discounting other reports which may be less skewed and relate to less inchoate forms of antisemitism. But a relatively remote possibility, and even though a bad, not necessarily a very significant onein the current climate. Nor is it one that should be allowed to inhibit criticism of those who, without any help from us, devalue the very idea of anti-semitism by blatantly over-hyping it (as well as, of course, falsely attributing it in the attempt to stifle criticism of various Israeli policies and practices).

lemuel pitkin @73 - thanks for the thanks! 

I do think it&#039;s worth making a conscious effort to include Margalit when referring to the article. Malhotra did at least show some willingness to address criticism, and even make (very limited) concessions about the quality of the article. (I personally thought he came across as somewhat ingenuous, with just the slightest air of the ill-briefed junior politician sent out to absorb flak - though I could be imagining that.) In any case, none of that can be said of Margalit, and he certainly shouldn&#039;t be allowed to do a disappearing trick.

As MB points out (though without hinting at any undeclared interest, formal or material, operative or not), Margalit&#039;s esoteric &lt;i&gt;correctio&lt;/i&gt;: &quot;When we found these results we thought it was important to put it out there...there is an issue here, but I wouldn’t take the number 24 [percent] literally&quot; raises the question why one would publish and stand by figures which shouldn&#039;t be taken literally (numerically?).

Given the evident tendency of Israeli militants to make use of anti-semitism charges in the attempt to discredit critics (often Democrats, and &lt;i&gt;qua&lt;/i&gt; Democrats, I believe?), &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/29916/israel-solidarity-events-dot-the-bay-area/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Margalit&lt;/a&gt; has a prima facie motive for conscious or unconscious bias and the prioritisation of impact over accuracy. He must in any case have some understanding of these particular issues, and should (i.e. may be presumed to) know better.

I must confess to a twinge of unease here, but I do think it&#039;s fair comment and ought to be said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Martin @75: Not increase antisemitism; cause people to underestimate the level of real anti-semitism, by excessively discounting other reports which may be less skewed and relate to less inchoate forms of antisemitism. But a relatively remote possibility, and even though a bad, not necessarily a very significant onein the current climate. Nor is it one that should be allowed to inhibit criticism of those who, without any help from us, devalue the very idea of anti-semitism by blatantly over-hyping it (as well as, of course, falsely attributing it in the attempt to stifle criticism of various Israeli policies and practices).</p>

	<p>lemuel pitkin @73 &#8211; thanks for the thanks!</p>

	<p>I do think it&#8217;s worth making a conscious effort to include Margalit when referring to the article. Malhotra did at least show some willingness to address criticism, and even make (very limited) concessions about the quality of the article. (I personally thought he came across as somewhat ingenuous, with just the slightest air of the ill-briefed junior politician sent out to absorb flak &#8211; though I could be imagining that.) In any case, none of that can be said of Margalit, and he certainly shouldn&#8217;t be allowed to do a disappearing trick.</p>

	<p>As MB points out (though without hinting at any undeclared interest, formal or material, operative or not), Margalit&#8217;s esoteric <i>correctio</i>: &#8220;When we found these results we thought it was important to put it out there&#8230;there is an issue here, but I wouldn&#8217;t take the number 24 [percent] literally&#8221; raises the question why one would publish and stand by figures which shouldn&#8217;t be taken literally (numerically?).</p>

	<p>Given the evident tendency of Israeli militants to make use of anti-semitism charges in the attempt to discredit critics (often Democrats, and <i>qua</i> Democrats, I believe?), <a href="http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/29916/israel-solidarity-events-dot-the-bay-area/" rel="nofollow">Margalit</a> has a prima facie motive for conscious or unconscious bias and the prioritisation of impact over accuracy. He must in any case have some understanding of these particular issues, and should (i.e. may be presumed to) know better.</p>

	<p>I must confess to a twinge of unease here, but I do think it&#8217;s fair comment and ought to be said.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/comment-page-2/#comment-296657</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 06:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13898#comment-296657</guid>
		<description>I should add, though, that I imagine Somin is still following this thread, and I do think a retraction is in order, given that Margalit (I accidentally said Malhotra above)  has disavowed the figure Somin cites. 

Tim, I don&#039;t see how criticism of exaggerated or skewed measures of antisemitism would increase antisemitism. I could come up with strained arguments that it would either tend to increase or decrease it, but I actually doubt it would have any effect. The roots of prejudice have to lie deeper or it wouldn&#039;t have its emotional force.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I should add, though, that I imagine Somin is still following this thread, and I do think a retraction is in order, given that Margalit (I accidentally said Malhotra above)  has disavowed the figure Somin cites.</p>

	<p>Tim, I don&#8217;t see how criticism of exaggerated or skewed measures of antisemitism would increase antisemitism. I could come up with strained arguments that it would either tend to increase or decrease it, but I actually doubt it would have any effect. The roots of prejudice have to lie deeper or it wouldn&#8217;t have its emotional force.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/comment-page-2/#comment-296655</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 06:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13898#comment-296655</guid>
		<description>Well, I hope they aren&#039;t going to further poison it, but I don&#039;t expect a retraction from Somin or Kristol. I did what I could, and thanks for the kudos, but I think we&#039;re all going to have to play whack-a-mole with this one for a while.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, I hope they aren&#8217;t going to further poison it, but I don&#8217;t expect a retraction from Somin or Kristol. I did what I could, and thanks for the kudos, but I think we&#8217;re all going to have to play whack-a-mole with this one for a while.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/comment-page-2/#comment-296650</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 04:58:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13898#comment-296650</guid>
		<description>Thanks to Martin B. and Tim W. for not letting the Malhotra paper go. Frustrating as it is that the authors seem likely to walk away from it with unblemished reputations, the fact that those &quot;findings&quot; aren&#039;t going to further poison the public discourse seems like a small but real win for the universal fact-checking that blogs were supposedly going to provide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks to Martin B. and Tim W. for not letting the Malhotra paper go. Frustrating as it is that the authors seem likely to walk away from it with unblemished reputations, the fact that those &#8220;findings&#8221; aren&#8217;t going to further poison the public discourse seems like a small but real win for the universal fact-checking that blogs were supposedly going to provide.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/comment-page-2/#comment-296648</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 04:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13898#comment-296648</guid>
		<description>should be &#039;minus one hit&#039; - minus sign being transformed by he server into strikethrough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>should be &#8216;minus one hit&#8217; &#8211; minus sign being transformed by he server into strikethrough.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/comment-page-2/#comment-296647</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 04:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13898#comment-296647</guid>
		<description>##66,67: Mine looked more relevant than that from a cursory look. But this kind of consideration underlies the points  @64 about using ratios rather than absolutes. Doing so is likely to cancel the irrelevance effect - i.e. the (squints) six-ish-fold propagation since 2 Jun probably stands. 

The matter of how to interpret the raw absolute numbers is open-ended. You can get finer and finer in analysing this stuff, and even if you go through and check each hit for relevance, you presumably want to weight for some sort of importance measure, for example readership, influence of readers.

But there&#039;s also a different question of the &#039;valence&#039; of the report, which throws all the numbers into question - the Jewish Week piece is included in the hits, but depending on what is being measured should perhaps count as -1 hit. Perhaps there are a lot more that are similarly critical on balance.  For those, wider dissemination is actually a good thing not just for its corrective effect on those who have read uncritical reports, but for its general cautionary effect (unless that itself leads to underestimating the level of real anti-semitism, in which case it is pro tanto bad) and, I have to say, in drawing attention to those (ir)responsible.

And BTW if sodding Google would actually run the search I specified instead of &#039;helpfully&#039; deriving what are supposed to be similar terms (in this case &#039;Jewish&#039;), then the number of irrelevant hits would have been reduced. I wouldn&#039;t mind, if only this overweening helpfulness were made explicit and I could turn it off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>##66,67: Mine looked more relevant than that from a cursory look. But this kind of consideration underlies the points  @64 about using ratios rather than absolutes. Doing so is likely to cancel the irrelevance effect &#8211; i.e. the (squints) six-ish-fold propagation since 2 Jun probably stands.</p>

	<p>The matter of how to interpret the raw absolute numbers is open-ended. You can get finer and finer in analysing this stuff, and even if you go through and check each hit for relevance, you presumably want to weight for some sort of importance measure, for example readership, influence of readers.</p>

	<p>But there&#8217;s also a different question of the &#8216;valence&#8217; of the report, which throws all the numbers into question &#8211; the Jewish Week piece is included in the hits, but depending on what is being measured should perhaps count as <del>1 hit. Perhaps there are a lot more that are similarly critical on balance.  For those, wider dissemination is actually a good thing not just for its corrective effect on those who have read uncritical reports, but for its general cautionary effect (unless that itself leads to underestimating the level of real anti</del>semitism, in which case it is pro tanto bad) and, I have to say, in drawing attention to those (ir)responsible.</p>

	<p>And <span class="caps">BTW</span> if sodding Google would actually run the search I specified instead of &#8216;helpfully&#8217; deriving what are supposed to be similar terms (in this case &#8216;Jewish&#8217;), then the number of irrelevant hits would have been reduced. I wouldn&#8217;t mind, if only this overweening helpfulness were made explicit and I could turn it off.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/comment-page-2/#comment-296645</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 02:45:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13898#comment-296645</guid>
		<description>JJ, the tea partiers are not actually that many people, so it&#039;s not fair to  take them as the voice of &quot;the people&quot;. Also, many of the town hall disrupters turned out to be people with direct stakes in the health insurance industry, e.g., employees - Poputurf, as I  said. What concerns me is that the Libertarians have a straightforward story and means to disseminate it, whereas liberals are re-evaluating things (especially the intellectual compromises they have made with the right) and don&#039;t have the same mass communications conduits, nor are they pushing a messaage for which the audience has been primed for decades by having it be the only economic view they ever heard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>JJ, the tea partiers are not actually that many people, so it&#8217;s not fair to  take them as the voice of &#8220;the people&#8221;. Also, many of the town hall disrupters turned out to be people with direct stakes in the health insurance industry, e.g., employees &#8211; Poputurf, as I  said. What concerns me is that the Libertarians have a straightforward story and means to disseminate it, whereas liberals are re-evaluating things (especially the intellectual compromises they have made with the right) and don&#8217;t have the same mass communications conduits, nor are they pushing a messaage for which the audience has been primed for decades by having it be the only economic view they ever heard.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/comment-page-2/#comment-296643</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 02:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13898#comment-296643</guid>
		<description>Thank you very much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thank you very much.</p>
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		<title>By: Harry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/comment-page-2/#comment-296641</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 02:05:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13898#comment-296641</guid>
		<description>Yes, I agree its good news. And, just to add, I&#039;m impressed both with the report you link to and with your and HV&#039;s role!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, I agree its good news. And, just to add, I&#8217;m impressed both with the report you link to and with your and HV&#8217;s role!</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Bento</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2009/11/24/im-with-stupid/comment-page-2/#comment-296638</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Bento</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 01:52:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=13898#comment-296638</guid>
		<description>I looked at every tenth Google page on my version, and got about 15-20% relevance after 100 hits. So, good point, and good news, actually, as I was afraid this had gotten more blog play than it had.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I looked at every tenth Google page on my version, and got about 15-20% relevance after 100 hits. So, good point, and good news, actually, as I was afraid this had gotten more blog play than it had.</p>
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