We must destroy these “stealth minarets” before they start circumcising halal meat thanks to SHARIA! Or something.

Why wait for the evidence to come to Switzerland when you can just look to France, Britain, Germany and Denmark for plenty of examples of crimes committed in the name of islam (yes, in the name of – NOT just because they are put-upon immigrants with fewer resources than the indigenous population and therefore must be forgiven if they steal and rob a little, according to Seeds)

That’s not what I said. Either you misunderstood, or you are misrepresenting my point of view. I said that this vote could well be motivated by issues related to immigration, rather than Islam in particular – it’s just that, happily for reactionaries, many asylum seekers in Switzerland are Muslim.

In your first paragraph, you seem to be implicitly accepting that this is a vote against Islam, rather than in favour of archictural preservation. So why is it so much of a leap to accept that this could be a vote against asylum seekers, rather than Islam?

I believe these countries’ mosques (gathering places for muslims learning about how to wage jihad against the people who have kindly taken them in) have more minarets now than church spires. And yes, they do look like nukes, funnily enough. Why? Because the very nature of islam is and has always been, warmongering and subjugation of others.

Interesting. In this paragraph you (presumably disingenuously) take the vote’s substance at face-value: the problem is the minarets. Do you have any evidence that there are more minarets than spires in France, Britain, Germany and Denmark, or in even one of those countries? I would be astonished if this were the case. I’m not going to comment on the parallel between minarets and missiles, because it’s idiotic in every conceivable way.

Also, what Bongo Bains said to Bloix. We are not talking about headbanging Wahhabis trying to convert Switzerland to a theocracy. We are talking about casual racism in Swiss towns with negligible Muslim populations.

Yes the Swiss do indeed share those values if you bother to look at their constitution, which clearly guarantees freedom of religious expression to all. One vote driven to a large degree by fear mongering doesn’t in itself allow for the conclusion that the Swiss have now decisively turned their back on those rights and freedoms. It is still early days.

It should be noted that the cantons of Geneva, Vaud, Neuchatel and Basel voted against the ban.

Cedric #107, is a Swiss national who rejected the anti-minaret vote. He said “It’s frightening to see that almost 60% of Swiss people are ok to be taken for morons.”

#114 Bloix: “Seriously, what is it about freedom of religion? Most of us here would agree, I think, that Islam is a tissue of lies: the world was not created by an all-powerful supernatural being, there are no angels, Mohammad was not divinely inspired, there is no heaven, there will be no judgment day. So why is it so important that the desire of some people to erect monuments to error trump the desire of other people to preserve the appearance of their towns?”

I don’t believe in the tenets of Islam either, any more than I believe in the fantasies and delusions promoted by Vatican smoke and mirrors. But that isn’t the point. The point is that many beliefs – religious and otherwise – can be seen as “mistaken” by me, you and others. But if we propose to operate a society on the basis of what we consider to be either true or false, and then ban what we personally don’t believe in, we are no longer talking about democracy.

Let us keep in mind what we are actually talking about here.The Muslim population of Switzerland accounts for a mere 0.5% of the total population. There are only 4 mosques in the entire country with so-called ‘minarets’. The Ahmadiyya mosque in Zurich has a smallish minnie that would be unlikely to intimidate anyone except reactionary refusniks looking for the opportunity to bitch.

Amazingly this whole absurd tempest-in-a-teapot began not in reference to minarets on actual mosques. It started in Wangen bei Olten, where a row broke out over the decision of the Turkish cultural association to put a 6-meter high structure on its roof that sort of resembles a minaret – although I have seen similar type structures on ornate Victorian style buildings. However since it was somewhat pointy and lacked a weathervane the locals felt threatened apparently.

The Turkish association was discriminated against from the word go – and bear in mind we are talking about a cultural building. Local authorities blocked the building application. The Turks had to bring their case to the Justice Department before the decision was remanded. But even so the local xenophobes dug in and pushed the case all the way to the Administrative Court of the Canton of Solothurn, where they failed with their appeal. This decision was later affirmed by the Swiss Federal Supreme Court. So in the end justice and sanity prevailed.

The targeting of the Turkish cultural association by local reactionaries clearly demonstrates that this hysteria in Switzerland, isn’t in fact just related to concerns about Islam – it goes beyond that to the targeting of Muslim people and their associations – in general.

Obviously the Swiss don’t share the “distinct set of values” that you think they should share. They have a different set of values that you don’t share. Their values concern maintenance of the existing order, including the visual appearance of that order. The fact that you don’t like their values doesn’t mean that their values don’t exist.

Seriously, what is it about freedom of religion? Most of us here would agree, I think, that Islam is a tissue of lies: the world was not created by an all-powerful supernatural being, there are no angels, Mohammad was not divinely inspired, there is no heaven, there will be no judgment day. So why is it so important that the desire of some people to erect monuments to error trump the desire of other people to preserve the appearance of their towns?

Why wait for the evidence to come to Switzerland when you can just look to France, Britain, Germany and Denmark for plenty of examples of crimes committed in the name of islam (yes, in the name of – NOT just because they are put-upon immigrants with fewer resources than the indigenous population and therefore must be forgiven if they steal and rob a little, according to Seeds)

Having lived almost all my adult life in Germany, I believe I can speak to conditions in that country. There have been crimes committed here in (to use Cecilie’s somewhat fevered formulation) “the name of Islam”. There just haven’t been many. There haven’t been many at all—to a first approximation, in fact, there have been none, and certainly very few indeed compared with the many murders and assaults perpetrated out by “Aryan” mouthbreathers against people foolish enough to be dusky of hue (or handicapped; nazis like to beat up and kill the disabled nearly as much as the like attacking foreigners).

Better nazi trolls, please.

#65 Zip: “How dare these people moan and complain, when Islamic countries have nothing like the tolerance and generosity extended to them…”

This redundant sentiment keeps surfacing in debates like this.

Obviously western democratic countries have political and cultural histories that are unique to their perspective and have ended up with a distinct set values enshrined in their constitutions that safeguard rights and freedoms. Equally obviously this is not the case in countries with theocratic governance to varying degrees.

So it’s like comparing apples and oranges.

An insistence on making this linkage and saying “well look what they do!” is a cop-out. If western democracies start voting to cut back the rights of Muslims because ‘Saudi Arabia does it to Christians’ or some such rationale, that is the same as bringing yourself down to the Saudi level of oppressive control.

The whole point is to up the ante and demonstrate that it is possible for civilized virtues to win out in multi-religious societies, without resorting to repressive tactics that diminish the rights and dignity of European Muslims. Yes it’s hard. Yes it’s challenging. But it’s the right thing to do.

This Swiss ban is not about lack of religious freedom (let’s not go into what kind of religious freedom any foreign settler in a muslim country should expect) but about a European country’s population sensibly putting their foot down against a very real threat, built on what they’ve seen happening in other European countries.
And that ridiculous word, “islamophobia.” What – we haven’t seen enough of what these people will do from 9/11 onwards to be just a tiny little bit nervous when they’re around?
In fact, isn’t islamophobia (a fear of being beheaded if you laugh at something) the very reason why politicians all over the western world are now bending over backwards to please these throwbacks to the middle ages?
Well done, Swiss people!

If your neighbours constantly got burgled, wouldn’t you think about locking your own doors a little bit more carefully?