Comments on: The ECB and Ireland http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 27 May 2012 09:28:09 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: R Schnetler http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-298529 R Schnetler Sat, 12 Dec 2009 01:11:22 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14063#comment-298529 #15 - And oil, pharma, defense represents <strong>all</strong> businesses? Where do jobs and taxes come from? #15 – And oil, pharma, defense represents all businesses? Where do jobs and taxes come from?

]]> By: novakant http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-298391 novakant Fri, 11 Dec 2009 07:22:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14063#comment-298391 #13 - is this statement meant to be ironic? if not, have you had a look at oil, pharma, defense profits lately? is greed good? #13 – is this statement meant to be ironic? if not, have you had a look at oil, pharma, defense profits lately? is greed good?

]]> By: Steve LaBonne http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-298382 Steve LaBonne Fri, 11 Dec 2009 03:53:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14063#comment-298382 <blockquote>Low corporate taxes are a good thing.</blockquote> Leaving aside that eminently disputable assertion (I will leave the disputation to the economists): effective, as opposed to nominal, corporate tax rates are generally lower in the US than in Ireland (and corporate income tax revenue as a % of GDP is quite a bit lower, indeed not much more than half of Ireland's), a fact about which wingnuts and corporate shills routinely lie though their goddamned teeth. That's one of the things that's annoying.
Low corporate taxes are a good thing.

Leaving aside that eminently disputable assertion (I will leave the disputation to the economists): effective, as opposed to nominal, corporate tax rates are generally lower in the US than in Ireland (and corporate income tax revenue as a % of GDP is quite a bit lower, indeed not much more than half of Ireland’s), a fact about which wingnuts and corporate shills routinely lie though their goddamned teeth. That’s one of the things that’s annoying.

]]> By: Daniel http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-298369 Daniel Fri, 11 Dec 2009 01:43:15 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14063#comment-298369 >>but after having to listen ad nauseum to US wingnuts drivelling about its low corporate tax rates I can’t help but feel just a tiny twinge of schadenfreude. t Low corporate taxes are a good thing. Corporations provide jobs and people need jobs. Very much so in the case of Ireland. You need tax revenue? Tax personal income. Leave corporate taxes alone (unless you are going to reduce them). BTW, in reference to whom do you feel this schadenfreude? American wingnuts? They are not feeling any pain. Ireland, Greece, Portugal, Latvia, Bulgaria, etc...could be swallowed by the earth and it would be no sweat on their back. >>but after having to listen ad nauseum to US wingnuts drivelling about its low corporate tax rates I can’t help but feel just a tiny twinge of schadenfreude.
t

Low corporate taxes are a good thing. Corporations provide jobs and people need jobs. Very much so in the case of Ireland.

You need tax revenue? Tax personal income. Leave corporate taxes alone (unless you are going to reduce them).

BTW, in reference to whom do you feel this schadenfreude? American wingnuts? They are not feeling any pain. Ireland, Greece, Portugal, Latvia, Bulgaria, etc…could be swallowed by the earth and it would be no sweat on their back.

]]> By: bert http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-298333 bert Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:45:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14063#comment-298333 <a href="http://www.amityshlaes.com/articles/2001/2001-08-13.php" rel="nofollow">How's this?</a> From her column in the FT, before they finally marched her out of the building in a half nelson. Bonus points for the namecheck given to Charlie Haughey, moral titan. Interesting that the only cloud on the horizon in August 2001 was a possible dropoff in foreign direct investment from a US outfit assembling commoditised computer parts. I don't think I'm wrong in explaining this largely as a result of the former eastern bloc countries, well on their way to EU membership, already touting for investment on the basis of low taxes, low wages, access to the single market. As Amity sagely points out, the Celtic Tiger relied on "relative competitiveness". Seen properly, from the boardroom, the arc of the Laffer Curve is long, and it bends towards zero. Needless to say, if I come across any Shlaes articles praising Ireland's debt-fuelled real estate boom I'll let you know. How’s this?
From her column in the FT, before they finally marched her out of the building in a half nelson. Bonus points for the namecheck given to Charlie Haughey, moral titan.

Interesting that the only cloud on the horizon in August 2001 was a possible dropoff in foreign direct investment from a US outfit assembling commoditised computer parts. I don’t think I’m wrong in explaining this largely as a result of the former eastern bloc countries, well on their way to EU membership, already touting for investment on the basis of low taxes, low wages, access to the single market. As Amity sagely points out, the Celtic Tiger relied on “relative competitiveness”. Seen properly, from the boardroom, the arc of the Laffer Curve is long, and it bends towards zero.
Needless to say, if I come across any Shlaes articles praising Ireland’s debt-fuelled real estate boom I’ll let you know.

]]> By: Barry http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-298327 Barry Thu, 10 Dec 2009 20:59:52 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14063#comment-298327 Henry, for Schlaes' stuff, just randomly piece together some of the whackier WSJ editorial pieces, and you've probably got something that she wrote. Henry, for Schlaes’ stuff, just randomly piece together some of the whackier WSJ editorial pieces, and you’ve probably got something that she wrote.

]]> By: P O'Neill http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-298272 P O'Neill Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:22:52 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14063#comment-298272 The Wall Street Journal was slowly shifting its flat tax love affair from the Celtic to the Baltic Tigers, which is a "where are ya now" topic all of its own. Basically much of the flat tax mania was the rediscovery that small open economies can do stuff that larger economies can't. Which has its downside. The Wall Street Journal was slowly shifting its flat tax love affair from the Celtic to the Baltic Tigers, which is a “where are ya now” topic all of its own. Basically much of the flat tax mania was the rediscovery that small open economies can do stuff that larger economies can’t. Which has its downside.

]]> By: Henry http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-298270 Henry Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:08:32 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14063#comment-298270 And in response to Steve, one of the posts I have wanted to write for a while is a 'where are ya now' response to Airmiles and others who extolled the way of the leprechaun. But I have had little success in tracking down Amity Shlaes' original profound contribution on the Celtic Tiger (I think DeLong mentioned it a couple of years back) which would be a crucial part of the project. And in response to Steve, one of the posts I have wanted to write for a while is a ‘where are ya now’ response to Airmiles and others who extolled the way of the leprechaun. But I have had little success in tracking down Amity Shlaes’ original profound contribution on the Celtic Tiger (I think DeLong mentioned it a couple of years back) which would be a crucial part of the project.

]]> By: Henry http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-298269 Henry Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:59:23 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14063#comment-298269 Reading it again, the post does have a whiff of the 'virtuous Ireland,' 'naughty Greece' about it, which I hadn't really intended - what I had meant to say, and obviously didn't, properly, was that fiscal rectitude, chopping welfare etc very likely wouldn't mean diddly-squat if and when the shit hits the fan, and that the ECB's actual decision will be based on politics rather than perceived adherence to a 'virtuous' economic policy. I didn't know at all about the collateral switcheroo ... Reading it again, the post does have a whiff of the ‘virtuous Ireland,’ ‘naughty Greece’ about it, which I hadn’t really intended – what I had meant to say, and obviously didn’t, properly, was that fiscal rectitude, chopping welfare etc very likely wouldn’t mean diddly-squat if and when the shit hits the fan, and that the ECB’s actual decision will be based on politics rather than perceived adherence to a ‘virtuous’ economic policy. I didn’t know at all about the collateral switcheroo …

]]> By: novakant http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-298268 novakant Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:58:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14063#comment-298268 I think it would be good if everybody made sure exactly who they are talking about when they talk about "the Irish". Yes, I have been lectured by both Irish and non-Irish neo-liberals on how the Irish economy could serve as a model for everybody else, and yes that was terribly annoying and also ridiculous, since the "Tiger" was largely dependent on other people's money and special privileges granted within the EU. And yes I've experienced arrogant, nouveau-rich Irish people with their polo matches, helicopters and Chelsea Tractors first-hand - and it certainly wasn't pretty. But I also know a lot of Irish people who didn't profit much from the boom at all, because it doesn't really matter if your house is suddenly worth 2 million, if you're living in it and don't plan to move to Poland anytime soon. These people were largely critical of the crazy developments on the property and financial markets, as well as what that did to Irish society, and now their basically f@cked, because of developments they never had any influence on in the first place. I think it would be good if everybody made sure exactly who they are talking about when they talk about “the Irish”.

Yes, I have been lectured by both Irish and non-Irish neo-liberals on how the Irish economy could serve as a model for everybody else, and yes that was terribly annoying and also ridiculous, since the “Tiger” was largely dependent on other people’s money and special privileges granted within the EU. And yes I’ve experienced arrogant, nouveau-rich Irish people with their polo matches, helicopters and Chelsea Tractors first-hand – and it certainly wasn’t pretty.

But I also know a lot of Irish people who didn’t profit much from the boom at all, because it doesn’t really matter if your house is suddenly worth 2 million, if you’re living in it and don’t plan to move to Poland anytime soon. These people were largely critical of the crazy developments on the property and financial markets, as well as what that did to Irish society, and now their basically f@cked, because of developments they never had any influence on in the first place.

]]> By: dsquared http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-298266 dsquared Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:42:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14063#comment-298266 Like P O'Neill, I'm having a hard time swallowing a description of Ireland's problems as having all that much to do with a contagious crisis of confidence. Like P O’Neill, I’m having a hard time swallowing a description of Ireland’s problems as having all that much to do with a contagious crisis of confidence.

]]> By: Steve LaBonne http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-298263 Steve LaBonne Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:23:59 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14063#comment-298263 I have nothing against Ireland- it's the homeland of most of my ancestors, after all, even though I am not by any means subject to the usual Irish-American fits of sentimentality- but after having to listen <i>ad nauseum</i> to US wingnuts drivelling about its low corporate tax rates I can't help but feel just a tiny twinge of <i>schadenfreude</i>. I have nothing against Ireland- it’s the homeland of most of my ancestors, after all, even though I am not by any means subject to the usual Irish-American fits of sentimentality- but after having to listen ad nauseum to US wingnuts drivelling about its low corporate tax rates I can’t help but feel just a tiny twinge of schadenfreude.

]]> By: P O'Neill http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-298261 P O'Neill Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:14:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14063#comment-298261 I'm a bit wary of the idea that this is a case of well-behaved Ireland being done in by more careless Greece. Leave aside the route into the current mess. The recent jitters with Greece started when the Bank of Greece <a href="http://eng.bankofgreece.gr/en/announcements/text_release.asp?relid=1839" rel="nofollow">let it be known</a> that it thought that local banks were overdoing their access to ECB liquidity facilities. The trick being that these banks would use their large and getting larger holdings of Greek government bonds as collateral for ECB loans. But Irish banks are doing exactly the same thing and in fact the original sales pitch for NAMA was that they would do even more of it since they would get nice government bonds usable as ECB collateral in exchange for their illiquid property loans. So I don't think it's contagion. I think it's recognition that the jig is up on the backdoor ECB deficit financing of the last year, and the country with the healthier banks and better economic prospects escapes before the door closes. My money is on Greece. I’m a bit wary of the idea that this is a case of well-behaved Ireland being done in by more careless Greece. Leave aside the route into the current mess. The recent jitters with Greece started when the Bank of Greece let it be known that it thought that local banks were overdoing their access to ECB liquidity facilities. The trick being that these banks would use their large and getting larger holdings of Greek government bonds as collateral for ECB loans. But Irish banks are doing exactly the same thing and in fact the original sales pitch for NAMA was that they would do even more of it since they would get nice government bonds usable as ECB collateral in exchange for their illiquid property loans.

So I don’t think it’s contagion. I think it’s recognition that the jig is up on the backdoor ECB deficit financing of the last year, and the country with the healthier banks and better economic prospects escapes before the door closes.

My money is on Greece.

]]> By: Barry http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-298260 Barry Thu, 10 Dec 2009 11:29:27 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14063#comment-298260 Well, the story continues. Now Ireland is raising taxes and cutting salaries during a severe recession? Not exactly a formula for recovery. Well, the story continues. Now Ireland is raising taxes and cutting salaries during a severe recession? Not exactly a formula for recovery.

]]> By: Pete http://crookedtimber.org/2009/12/10/the-ecb-and-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-298258 Pete Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:09:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14063#comment-298258 "we now know that the Greek government has deliberately and substantially falsified its national accounts over recent years" What's going to happen as a result of this? Both to Greece, and the individuals responsible for such falsification? “we now know that the Greek government has deliberately and substantially falsified its national accounts over recent years”

What’s going to happen as a result of this? Both to Greece, and the individuals responsible for such falsification?

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