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	<title>Comments on: Are campus conservatives attentive students?</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/comment-page-2/#comment-303470</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14564#comment-303470</guid>
		<description>(But, to be less irritable, BCSmith&#039;s point is true and important...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>(But, to be less irritable, BCSmith&#8217;s point is true and important&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/comment-page-2/#comment-303457</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14564#comment-303457</guid>
		<description>Fascinating how a single sentence attempting to _state_ (not criticise) moral relativism draws forth such a flurry of excited efforts to enlighten me. In case it is unclear to anyone, I didn&#039;t advance the claim that apatheid is unAmerican...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Fascinating how a single sentence attempting to <em>state</em> (not criticise) moral relativism draws forth such a flurry of excited efforts to enlighten me. In case it is unclear to anyone, I didn&#8217;t advance the claim that apatheid is unAmerican&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: bcsmith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/comment-page-2/#comment-303372</link>
		<dc:creator>bcsmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14564#comment-303372</guid>
		<description>quibbling historian: &quot;You can say that apartheid is unAmerican,. . .&quot; but that would be historically incorrect.  It might also deprive us of a deep source of understanding and conviction about the conditions and costs of apartheid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>quibbling historian: &#8220;You can say that apartheid is unAmerican,. . .&#8221; but that would be historically incorrect.  It might also deprive us of a deep source of understanding and conviction about the conditions and costs of apartheid.</p>
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		<title>By: Anarcho</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/comment-page-2/#comment-303363</link>
		<dc:creator>Anarcho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 11:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14564#comment-303363</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’m surprised that someone with a libertarian economic tilt is willing to accept massive public subsidies to fund his education but feels no obligation to learn anything.&quot;

What, he considers &quot;Property is theft&quot;? He advocates workers self-management to replace capitalism? He advocates the anti-state socialism of Proudhon, Bakunin and Kropotkin? 

http://anarchism.pageabode.com/anarcho/the-economics-of-anarchy

Oh, you probably mean propertarian, not libertarian. Libertarian was first used by the left in 1858. Right-wing appropriation of the term started over 100 years later -- while we were still using it! 

http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/150-years-of-libertarian

So, please, use the term propertarian to describe these people -- they are more into property than liberty so that name fits far better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;I&#8217;m surprised that someone with a libertarian economic tilt is willing to accept massive public subsidies to fund his education but feels no obligation to learn anything.&#8221;</p>

	<p>What, he considers &#8220;Property is theft&#8221;? He advocates workers self-management to replace capitalism? He advocates the anti-state socialism of Proudhon, Bakunin and Kropotkin?</p>

	<p><a href="http://anarchism.pageabode.com/anarcho/the-economics-of-anarchy" rel="nofollow">http://anarchism.pageabode.com/anarcho/the-economics-of-anarchy</a></p>

	<p>Oh, you probably mean propertarian, not libertarian. Libertarian was first used by the left in 1858. Right-wing appropriation of the term started over 100 years later&#8212;while we were still using it!</p>

	<p><a href="http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/150-years-of-libertarian" rel="nofollow">http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/150-years-of-libertarian</a></p>

	<p>So, please, use the term propertarian to describe these people&#8212;they are more into property than liberty so that name fits far better.</p>
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		<title>By: M</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/comment-page-2/#comment-303314</link>
		<dc:creator>M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14564#comment-303314</guid>
		<description>You also misspelt &quot;more violent&quot; as &quot;worse.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You also misspelt &#8220;more violent&#8221; as &#8220;worse.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: bartkid</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/comment-page-2/#comment-303311</link>
		<dc:creator>bartkid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14564#comment-303311</guid>
		<description>Sigh.
authoritarian.
My kingdom for a spellczech.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sigh.<br />
authoritarian.<br />
My kingdom for a spellczech.</p>
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		<title>By: bartkid</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/comment-page-2/#comment-303307</link>
		<dc:creator>bartkid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14564#comment-303307</guid>
		<description>&gt;As a philosophy major at Rutgers University, Mr. O’Keefe came to believe that conservative-leaning students were being force-fed a diet of academic liberalism. 

As a science major, Ms. X came to believe Y.  As a literature major, Mr. Z came to believe A., etc., etc.

I see this as a faulty premise, blaming the degree or the school for the reaction of Mr. O&#039;K.  Next, you will cite Gandhi as worse than Hitler because of his (Gandhi&#039;s) novel counter-proposal for decades of authortarian rule by an occupying force.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>>As a philosophy major at Rutgers University, Mr. O&#8217;Keefe came to believe that conservative-leaning students were being force-fed a diet of academic liberalism.</p>

	<p>As a science major, Ms. X came to believe Y.  As a literature major, Mr. Z came to believe A., etc., etc.</p>

	<p>I see this as a faulty premise, blaming the degree or the school for the reaction of Mr. O&#8217;K.  Next, you will cite Gandhi as worse than Hitler because of his (Gandhi&#8217;s) novel counter-proposal for decades of authortarian rule by an occupying force.</p>
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		<title>By: matthias</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/comment-page-2/#comment-303271</link>
		<dc:creator>matthias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14564#comment-303271</guid>
		<description>The Argument From Nazis (&quot;if there are no justified transhistorical moral judgments, you can&#039;t condemn the nazis&quot;) is enthymatic, and the suppressed premise is &quot;there is a transhistorical obligation not to morally judge people except on a sound transhistorical basis.&quot; But this violates the visible premise.

This indeed means that what gets called moral relativism is indeed a bad basis on which to argue for tolerance (if one can &quot;argue for&quot; basic values at all.) But that is not, to my knowledge, what motivates philosophers professing &quot;moral relativism!&quot; They just think it&#039;s true, that&#039;s all (excepting say people like Rorty, who are &quot;relativists&quot; much more generically.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Argument From Nazis (&#8220;if there are no justified transhistorical moral judgments, you can&#8217;t condemn the nazis&#8221;) is enthymatic, and the suppressed premise is &#8220;there is a transhistorical obligation not to morally judge people except on a sound transhistorical basis.&#8221; But this violates the visible premise.</p>

	<p>This indeed means that what gets called moral relativism is indeed a bad basis on which to argue for tolerance (if one can &#8220;argue for&#8221; basic values at all.) But that is not, to my knowledge, what motivates philosophers professing &#8220;moral relativism!&#8221; They just think it&#8217;s true, that&#8217;s all (excepting say people like Rorty, who are &#8220;relativists&#8221; much more generically.)</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/comment-page-2/#comment-303238</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 05:17:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14564#comment-303238</guid>
		<description>The quotation in the Times apparently comes from a student newspaper article that is attributed to O&#039;Keefe.  A fair reading of the article makes it clear that his complaint had little to do with the philosophy department at Rutgers:

&quot;Conservatives and traditionalists are in this respect very
fortunate in college. They are challenged. They learn material
through postmodernism, historical revisionism and the plight
of the disenfranchised. The are forced to disect morality and
examine the ethical obligations of the West. They are lectured
about the injustices and struggles of those who have been
victim of systems favorable to those in power. They are
drowned in relativism, concepts of distributive justice and
redistribution of wealth. They are taught that there is no such
thing as truth and you are not allowed to make judgments
upon anyone or anything, except America. They are taught to
be sensitive and defensive, emphasizing artifice and political
correctness over fact. For Rutgers students who have not
taken any classes in the liberal arts, look no
further than your mandatory Expository
Writing course. You read about the evils of
capitalism and the gluttony of America. You
read about the corruption of the elections
processes which elect diplomatic morons.
You learned about the consequences of globalization, the need
for cultural contexts and the corruption of an all men’s
institution discriminating against women. Liberals are very
unfortunate in college. They aren’t really challenged at all.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The quotation in the Times apparently comes from a student newspaper article that is attributed to O&#8217;Keefe.  A fair reading of the article makes it clear that his complaint had little to do with the philosophy department at Rutgers:</p>

	<p>&#8220;Conservatives and traditionalists are in this respect very<br />
fortunate in college. They are challenged. They learn material<br />
through postmodernism, historical revisionism and the plight<br />
of the disenfranchised. The are forced to disect morality and<br />
examine the ethical obligations of the West. They are lectured<br />
about the injustices and struggles of those who have been<br />
victim of systems favorable to those in power. They are<br />
drowned in relativism, concepts of distributive justice and<br />
redistribution of wealth. They are taught that there is no such<br />
thing as truth and you are not allowed to make judgments<br />
upon anyone or anything, except America. They are taught to<br />
be sensitive and defensive, emphasizing artifice and political<br />
correctness over fact. For Rutgers students who have not<br />
taken any classes in the liberal arts, look no<br />
further than your mandatory Expository<br />
Writing course. You read about the evils of<br />
capitalism and the gluttony of America. You<br />
read about the corruption of the elections<br />
processes which elect diplomatic morons.<br />
You learned about the consequences of globalization, the need<br />
for cultural contexts and the corruption of an all men&#8217;s<br />
institution discriminating against women. Liberals are very<br />
unfortunate in college. They aren&#8217;t really challenged at all.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: hilzoy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/comment-page-2/#comment-303227</link>
		<dc:creator>hilzoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 02:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14564#comment-303227</guid>
		<description>Two points:

(1) Recall that a lot of college movement conservatives are influenced by Ayn Rand, who rather astonishingly thought that Kant was a subjectivist and relativist about morals.

(2) About kid bitzer&#039;s point:

&quot;given that this is exactly the kind of thing that douthat said about harvard in order to make his conservative bones&quot;

-- this has a long pedigree. I recall watching Bill Bennett give a presentation at Harvard, back in the 80s, in which he claimed that Harvard didn&#039;t believe in teaching ethics. Harvard at that time had not just the philosophy department, a whole slew of ethics courses in the various professional schools, etc., but required all its undergraduates to take a moral reasoning course as a condition of graduation. My Dad pointed this out, whereupon Bennett said: &quot;By &quot;teaching ethics&quot; I don&#039;t mean some dry academic course; I mean getting the drugs off campus&quot;. 

Ah. Right. I see. -- It put me in mind of Lewis Carroll:

&quot;&quot;There&#039;s glory for you!&quot;

   &quot;I don&#039;t know what you mean by &#039;glory,&#039; &quot; Alice said.

   Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. &quot;Of course you don&#039;t—till I tell you. I meant &#039;there&#039;s a nice knock-down argument for you!&#039; &quot;

   &quot;But &#039;glory&#039; doesn&#039;t mean &#039;a nice knock-down argument,&#039; &quot; Alice objected.

   &quot;When I use a word,&quot; Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, &quot;it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.&quot;

   &quot;The question is, &quot; said Alice, &quot;whether you can make words mean so many different things.&quot;

   &quot;The question is,&quot; said Humpty Dumpty. &quot;which is to be master—that&#039;s all.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Two points:</p>

	<p>(1) Recall that a lot of college movement conservatives are influenced by Ayn Rand, who rather astonishingly thought that Kant was a subjectivist and relativist about morals.</p>

	<p>(2) About kid bitzer&#8217;s point:</p>

	<p>&#8220;given that this is exactly the kind of thing that douthat said about harvard in order to make his conservative bones&#8221;<br />
&#8212;this has a long pedigree. I recall watching Bill Bennett give a presentation at Harvard, back in the 80s, in which he claimed that Harvard didn&#8217;t believe in teaching ethics. Harvard at that time had not just the philosophy department, a whole slew of ethics courses in the various professional schools, etc., but required all its undergraduates to take a moral reasoning course as a condition of graduation. My Dad pointed this out, whereupon Bennett said: &#8220;By &#8220;teaching ethics&#8221; I don&#8217;t mean some dry academic course; I mean getting the drugs off campus&#8221;.</p>

	<p>Ah. Right. I see.&#8212;It put me in mind of Lewis Carroll:</p>

	<p>&#8220;&#8221;There&#8217;s glory for you!&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;I don&#8217;t know what you mean by &#8216;glory,&#8217; &#8221; Alice said.</p>

	<p>Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. &#8220;Of course you don&#8217;t&#8212;till I tell you. I meant &#8216;there&#8217;s a nice knock-down argument for you!&#8217; &#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;But &#8216;glory&#8217; doesn&#8217;t mean &#8216;a nice knock-down argument,&#8217; &#8221; Alice objected.</p>

	<p>&#8220;When I use a word,&#8221; Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, &#8220;it means just what I choose it to mean&#8212;neither more nor less.&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;The question is, &#8221; said Alice, &#8220;whether you can make words mean so many different things.&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;The question is,&#8221; said Humpty Dumpty. &#8220;which is to be master&#8212;that&#8217;s all.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Dave Baldwin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/comment-page-2/#comment-303210</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Baldwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 23:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14564#comment-303210</guid>
		<description>While I highly suspect O&#039;Keefe is just mouthing the tired, old, ignorant right-wing whine about academia, and one would be a mug to think he&#039;s speaking in good-faith, Stanley may not be quite right: Bruce Wilshire was teaching at the time O&#039;Keefe was at Rutgers.  His classes were--I understand--quite popular with undergraduates, and from what very little I know about his thinking, I shouldn&#039;t be surprised if it was heavily colored with relativism.  Still, that&#039;s just one lone teacher.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>While I highly suspect O&#8217;Keefe is just mouthing the tired, old, ignorant right-wing whine about academia, and one would be a mug to think he&#8217;s speaking in good-faith, Stanley may not be quite right: Bruce Wilshire was teaching at the time O&#8217;Keefe was at Rutgers.  His classes were&#8212;I understand&#8212;quite popular with undergraduates, and from what very little I know about his thinking, I shouldn&#8217;t be surprised if it was heavily colored with relativism.  Still, that&#8217;s just one lone teacher.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/comment-page-2/#comment-303202</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14564#comment-303202</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The Alex @37 – Your a priori judgments are showing. It is possible to say that slavery, etc etc. but it is also possible to say that colourless green ideas sleep furiously. So what? Your exciting calculus of relative blame may help get you through the day, but I fail to see what it has to do with either a philosophical or an historical understanding of the structures you hate so virulently.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m not sure I follow. I was trying (and maybe I failed) to explain that saying &quot;culture&quot; is relevant means that you can&#039;t say apartheid was &quot;wrong&quot; is a false dichotomy. You can say that it&#039;s wrong, but it does make it harder to &quot;judge&quot; individuals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>The Alex @37 &#8211; Your a priori judgments are showing. It is possible to say that slavery, etc etc. but it is also possible to say that colourless green ideas sleep furiously. So what? Your exciting calculus of relative blame may help get you through the day, but I fail to see what it has to do with either a philosophical or an historical understanding of the structures you hate so virulently.</blockquote></p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not sure I follow. I was trying (and maybe I failed) to explain that saying &#8220;culture&#8221; is relevant means that you can&#8217;t say apartheid was &#8220;wrong&#8221; is a false dichotomy. You can say that it&#8217;s wrong, but it does make it harder to &#8220;judge&#8221; individuals.</p>
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		<title>By: alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/comment-page-2/#comment-303144</link>
		<dc:creator>alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 11:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14564#comment-303144</guid>
		<description>@35: Nice, but neither of those two utterances is a sentence.

The Alex @37 - Your &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; judgments are showing. It is possible to say that slavery, etc etc. but it is also possible to say that colourless green ideas sleep furiously. So what? Your exciting calculus of relative blame may help get you through the day, but I fail to see what it has to do with either a philosophical or an historical understanding of the structures you hate so virulently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@35: Nice, but neither of those two utterances is a sentence.</p>

	<p>The Alex @37 &#8211; Your <i>a priori</i> judgments are showing. It is possible to say that slavery, etc etc. but it is also possible to say that colourless green ideas sleep furiously. So what? Your exciting calculus of relative blame may help get you through the day, but I fail to see what it has to do with either a philosophical or an historical understanding of the structures you hate so virulently.</p>
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		<title>By: praisegod barebones</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/comment-page-2/#comment-303110</link>
		<dc:creator>praisegod barebones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 07:06:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14564#comment-303110</guid>
		<description>Justin @ 23:  In my culture, it&#039;s more charitable to think that someone is saying something false because they are young,  stupid and/or inattentive than to think they are saying something that they know to be false out of malice and a desire for self-advancement. Perhaps that&#039;s not the dominant culture here at CT. :-)

Martin @30, kid @38: That&#039;s more or less what I was trying to say.

Actually, maybe &#039;something they know to be false&#039; is too strong. It may simply be &#039;bullshit&#039; (in the technical sense of the term, of course).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Justin @ 23:  In my culture, it&#8217;s more charitable to think that someone is saying something false because they are young,  stupid and/or inattentive than to think they are saying something that they know to be false out of malice and a desire for self-advancement. Perhaps that&#8217;s not the dominant culture here at CT. :-)</p>

	<p>Martin @30, kid @38: That&#8217;s more or less what I was trying to say.</p>

	<p>Actually, maybe &#8216;something they know to be false&#8217; is too strong. It may simply be &#8216;bullshit&#8217; (in the technical sense of the term, of course).</p>
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		<title>By: Ahistoricality</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/01/31/are-campus-conservatives-attentive-students/comment-page-2/#comment-303102</link>
		<dc:creator>Ahistoricality</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 06:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14564#comment-303102</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The impression I get is that they think anything other than a divine command voluntarism must be a relativist view&lt;/i&gt;

I think that&#039;s a big part of it, along with the self-willed ignorance of the selectivity necessary to construct a single view of &quot;tradition&quot; which would support such a simplistic claim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The impression I get is that they think anything other than a divine command voluntarism must be a relativist view</i></p>

	<p>I think that&#8217;s a big part of it, along with the self-willed ignorance of the selectivity necessary to construct a single view of &#8220;tradition&#8221; which would support such a simplistic claim.</p>
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