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	<title>Comments on: On Morgenthau and Peace</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/comment-page-2/#comment-434515</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 15:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26547#comment-434515</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Goa - re: Indian government&#039;s determination to have complete control over its territory. But I suppose a better example would have been Hyderabad - the Indian government refused to allow it to remain independent after partition, and invaded it. 

Wikipedia, incidentally, is incredibly indirect in its description of this whole process: &quot;the Government of India, through a combination of diplomatic and military means, acquired de facto and de jure control...&quot; well, that&#039;s one way of putting it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Goa &#8211; re: Indian government&#8217;s determination to have complete control over its territory. But I suppose a better example would have been Hyderabad &#8211; the Indian government refused to allow it to remain independent after partition, and invaded it. </p>
<p>Wikipedia, incidentally, is incredibly indirect in its description of this whole process: &#8220;the Government of India, through a combination of diplomatic and military means, acquired de facto and de jure control&#8230;&#8221; well, that&#8217;s one way of putting it.</p>
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		<title>By: LFC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/comment-page-2/#comment-434514</link>
		<dc:creator>LFC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 15:03:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26547#comment-434514</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And if it&#039;s Goa, isn&#039;t there a difference btw accepting a confederation and accepting a colonial enclave?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And if it&#8217;s Goa, isn&#8217;t there a difference btw accepting a confederation and accepting a colonial enclave?</p>
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		<title>By: LFC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/comment-page-2/#comment-434513</link>
		<dc:creator>LFC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 15:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26547#comment-434513</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Hence, for example, one of the very few cases of completely successful post-war aggressive warfare and annexation&lt;/i&gt;

You&#039;re referring to Goa? or something directly connected to Partition? (or do you want to play 20 Questions?)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Hence, for example, one of the very few cases of completely successful post-war aggressive warfare and annexation</i></p>
<p>You&#8217;re referring to Goa? or something directly connected to Partition? (or do you want to play 20 Questions?)</p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/comment-page-2/#comment-434494</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 10:39:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26547#comment-434494</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;One way to look at it was that neither Nehru nor Jinnah was willing to have that degree of federation in their India, and partition was the price of India and Pakistan being centralised states within their borders.&lt;/i&gt;

Hence, for example, one of the very few cases of completely successful post-war aggressive warfare and annexation - Tibet and the Aksai Chin being about the only other ones I can think of offhand - and I think the only one ever conducted by a democratic country.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>One way to look at it was that neither Nehru nor Jinnah was willing to have that degree of federation in their India, and partition was the price of India and Pakistan being centralised states within their borders.</i></p>
<p>Hence, for example, one of the very few cases of completely successful post-war aggressive warfare and annexation &#8211; Tibet and the Aksai Chin being about the only other ones I can think of offhand &#8211; and I think the only one ever conducted by a democratic country.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/comment-page-2/#comment-434488</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 09:50:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26547#comment-434488</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Germans in Turkey: there were both a surprising number of German officers who turned up in the Holocaust who had been involved in Armenia early in their careers, and also a surprising number of German officers, diplomats, and civilian advisors in Turkey in WW1 who actively resisted. (I forget the name, but the paradigm-case was the Deutsche Bank guy sent to oversee the Berlin-Baghdad railway project.)

Indian federalism: the form of the state, as foreseen in the 1935 Act and then in the proposals of the Cabinet Mission, was intended to be even more federal than it ended up being, to the point of being neo-medieval. The Indian Union, as it was styled up until a few years after independence, was getting on for being a confederation rather than a federation. One way to look at it was that neither Nehru nor Jinnah was willing to have that degree of federation in &lt;em&gt;their&lt;/em&gt; India, and partition was the price of India and Pakistan being centralised states within their borders.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Germans in Turkey: there were both a surprising number of German officers who turned up in the Holocaust who had been involved in Armenia early in their careers, and also a surprising number of German officers, diplomats, and civilian advisors in Turkey in WW1 who actively resisted. (I forget the name, but the paradigm-case was the Deutsche Bank guy sent to oversee the Berlin-Baghdad railway project.)</p>
<p>Indian federalism: the form of the state, as foreseen in the 1935 Act and then in the proposals of the Cabinet Mission, was intended to be even more federal than it ended up being, to the point of being neo-medieval. The Indian Union, as it was styled up until a few years after independence, was getting on for being a confederation rather than a federation. One way to look at it was that neither Nehru nor Jinnah was willing to have that degree of federation in <em>their</em> India, and partition was the price of India and Pakistan being centralised states within their borders.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/comment-page-2/#comment-434400</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 16:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26547#comment-434400</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Duplication apparently endemic: please delete also]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Duplication apparently endemic: please delete also</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/comment-page-2/#comment-434399</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 16:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26547#comment-434399</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Eric: &quot;Morgenthau was one of the few real friends Britain had in the Roosevelt administration&quot;

Would be interesting to know the names of the other few. Not, obviously, Joe Kennedy.
Nor Roosevelt?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric: &#8220;Morgenthau was one of the few real friends Britain had in the Roosevelt administration&#8221;</p>
<p>Would be interesting to know the names of the other few. Not, obviously, Joe Kennedy.<br />
Nor Roosevelt?</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/comment-page-2/#comment-434397</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 16:28:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26547#comment-434397</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Eric: &quot;Morgenthau was one of the few real friends Britain had in the Roosevelt administration&quot;

Would be interesting to know the names of the other few. Not, obviously, Joe Kennedy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric: &#8220;Morgenthau was one of the few real friends Britain had in the Roosevelt administration&#8221;</p>
<p>Would be interesting to know the names of the other few. Not, obviously, Joe Kennedy.</p>
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		<title>By: hannah</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/comment-page-2/#comment-434297</link>
		<dc:creator>hannah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 00:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26547#comment-434297</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[aeiou] I&#039;ve met Germans of my generation (born 1963) who&#039;ve said casually and without intended irony that to Germans &quot;an order is an order&quot;. 

The German state as constituted before or after WWII, or now, should not exist.
And the new Jerusalem should by all rights be on the Rhine.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> &#8216;v mt Grmns f my gnrtn (brn 1963) wh&#8217;v sd cslly nd wtht ntndd rny tht t Grmns &#8220;n rdr s n rdr&#8221;. </p>
<p>Th Grmn stt s cnstttd bfr r ftr WW, r nw, shld nt xst.<br />
nd th nw Jrslm shld by ll rghts b n th Rhn.</p>
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		<title>By: LFC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/comment-page-2/#comment-434295</link>
		<dc:creator>LFC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 00:16:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26547#comment-434295</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[B Wilder:
I don&#039;t know the history of the Indian federal states (to which you allude) and will take your word that their boundaries have changed over time, but in any case India has held together pretty well for a v. large, rather diverse country. AFAIK there is  some Maoist armed activity, grouped under the umbrella term Naxalites, and there are several separatist movements centered in the far northeast,  and in terms of persistent internal threats to the basic integrity of the state, that&#039;s about it. These do result in fatalities unfortunately,  but they are basically annoyances to the fed govt rather than something more serious, or at least that is my impression.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>B Wilder:<br />
I don&#8217;t know the history of the Indian federal states (to which you allude) and will take your word that their boundaries have changed over time, but in any case India has held together pretty well for a v. large, rather diverse country. AFAIK there is  some Maoist armed activity, grouped under the umbrella term Naxalites, and there are several separatist movements centered in the far northeast,  and in terms of persistent internal threats to the basic integrity of the state, that&#8217;s about it. These do result in fatalities unfortunately,  but they are basically annoyances to the fed govt rather than something more serious, or at least that is my impression.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Wilder</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/comment-page-2/#comment-434290</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Wilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2012 23:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26547#comment-434290</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anderson @ 57

I wouldn&#039;t say they were wrong, either, in the late 1940s.  

I just wanted to point out that things have evolved since; I think that&#039;s interesting.  National and ethnic, religious or linguistic identities, and associated political organization, are dynamic and develop over time, interacting with (small-c) constitutions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anderson @ 57</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t say they were wrong, either, in the late 1940s.  </p>
<p>I just wanted to point out that things have evolved since; I think that&#8217;s interesting.  National and ethnic, religious or linguistic identities, and associated political organization, are dynamic and develop over time, interacting with (small-c) constitutions.</p>
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		<title>By: teraz kurwa my</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/comment-page-2/#comment-434286</link>
		<dc:creator>teraz kurwa my</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2012 23:34:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26547#comment-434286</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The German minority in Poland tended to be quite strongly pro Nazi by the eve of WWII. However, the vast majority of the Germans who were ethnically cleansed from postwar Poland were not part of that minority. They were German citizens living within the Versailles frontiers of Germany.  Virtually none of the pre-war German minority was allowed to remain.  The million or so who remained were mostly bilingual Upper Silesians and East Prussians with rather ambiguous national identities, of the rest there were a fair number of people with clear Polish identities and some straight up Germans in the Walbrzych area (Lower Silesia) who weren&#039;t allowed to leave.  The Polish communist government treated the remaining ex-German citizens pretty horribly in the Stalinist period, which led to many of them going from Polish or indeterminate national identity to straight up German identity.

Was it genocide?  It clearly meets the legal definition, but equally clearly doesn&#039;t correspond to the colloquial understanding of the term.

NB Zayas really shouldn&#039;t be read these days.  He&#039;s a radical right winger with close ties to the most extreme elements of the German expellee movement. Fifteen years ago there was little better available, but plenty of stuff has come out over the past decade or so.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The German minority in Poland tended to be quite strongly pro Nazi by the eve of WWII. However, the vast majority of the Germans who were ethnically cleansed from postwar Poland were not part of that minority. They were German citizens living within the Versailles frontiers of Germany.  Virtually none of the pre-war German minority was allowed to remain.  The million or so who remained were mostly bilingual Upper Silesians and East Prussians with rather ambiguous national identities, of the rest there were a fair number of people with clear Polish identities and some straight up Germans in the Walbrzych area (Lower Silesia) who weren&#8217;t allowed to leave.  The Polish communist government treated the remaining ex-German citizens pretty horribly in the Stalinist period, which led to many of them going from Polish or indeterminate national identity to straight up German identity.</p>
<p>Was it genocide?  It clearly meets the legal definition, but equally clearly doesn&#8217;t correspond to the colloquial understanding of the term.</p>
<p>NB Zayas really shouldn&#8217;t be read these days.  He&#8217;s a radical right winger with close ties to the most extreme elements of the German expellee movement. Fifteen years ago there was little better available, but plenty of stuff has come out over the past decade or so.</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/comment-page-2/#comment-434285</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2012 23:27:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26547#comment-434285</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;it is not immediately clear why partition was necessary, given that some states could be, and would be, dominated by Muslims, and considerable political power would devolve to the states in India governance&quot;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_India_Muslim_League#Campaign_for_Pakistan&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Evidently&lt;/a&gt; the Muslims did not find that a sufficient safeguard against Hindi majority rule. I can&#039;t say they were mistaken.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;it is not immediately clear why partition was necessary, given that some states could be, and would be, dominated by Muslims, and considerable political power would devolve to the states in India governance&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_India_Muslim_League#Campaign_for_Pakistan" rel="nofollow">Evidently</a> the Muslims did not find that a sufficient safeguard against Hindi majority rule. I can&#8217;t say they were mistaken.</p>
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		<title>By: john c. halasz</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/comment-page-2/#comment-434278</link>
		<dc:creator>john c. halasz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2012 22:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26547#comment-434278</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d always assumed that part of what influenced American policy toward the reconstruction of post-War West Germany, lurking in the background, was the historical awareness of the failure the the Reconstruction after the U.S. Civil War.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d always assumed that part of what influenced American policy toward the reconstruction of post-War West Germany, lurking in the background, was the historical awareness of the failure the the Reconstruction after the U.S. Civil War.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Wilder</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/11/12/on-morgenthau-and-peace/comment-page-2/#comment-434277</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Wilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2012 22:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26547#comment-434277</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[India is a Federal state, and it is not immediately clear why partition was necessary, given that some states could be, and would be, dominated by Muslims, and considerable political power would devolve to the states in India governance.

Partition virtually ensured that there would be war between India and Pakistan.  Maybe, a civil war would have ensued, given a single federation, but it is not clear why there would be a series of civil wars, as there has been a series of clashes between India and Pakistan.

One of the interesting things about the political evolution of the Indian Federation has been the plasticity of its component states.  Most Federal states rarely tamper with state boundaries -- the U.S. has done so in only a handful of cases.  And, Indian states have evolved in the direction of uniting linguistic groups.  I don&#039;t know if this increases centrifugal tension or not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>India is a Federal state, and it is not immediately clear why partition was necessary, given that some states could be, and would be, dominated by Muslims, and considerable political power would devolve to the states in India governance.</p>
<p>Partition virtually ensured that there would be war between India and Pakistan.  Maybe, a civil war would have ensued, given a single federation, but it is not clear why there would be a series of civil wars, as there has been a series of clashes between India and Pakistan.</p>
<p>One of the interesting things about the political evolution of the Indian Federation has been the plasticity of its component states.  Most Federal states rarely tamper with state boundaries &#8212; the U.S. has done so in only a handful of cases.  And, Indian states have evolved in the direction of uniting linguistic groups.  I don&#8217;t know if this increases centrifugal tension or not.</p>
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