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	<title>Comments on: Why Can&#8217;t We Say What Color Our Skin Is?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Phoenician in a time of Romans</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/comment-page-4/#comment-438349</link>
		<dc:creator>Phoenician in a time of Romans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 02:24:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26871#comment-438349</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;And obviously the same caveats apply: there is no possibility that the white people who can’t identify black people as well as they can identity white people phenomena is due to some innate ‘white person recognizing module’ in the white person’s head. Obviously this is due to environment. If a white person lives with black people they will be able to reidentify them fine.&lt;/i&gt;

Unless, of course, the null hypothesis of &quot;white&quot; skin being more transparent to being read than &quot;black&quot; skin is true.  I don&#039;t think it is, but it should be tested. And I don&#039;t think a population of American blacks would be a useful population to include in such a test; you&#039;d prefer a population from Africa with reasonably limited exposure living among whites.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And obviously the same caveats apply: there is no possibility that the white people who can’t identify black people as well as they can identity white people phenomena is due to some innate ‘white person recognizing module’ in the white person’s head. Obviously this is due to environment. If a white person lives with black people they will be able to reidentify them fine.</i></p>
<p>Unless, of course, the null hypothesis of &#8220;white&#8221; skin being more transparent to being read than &#8220;black&#8221; skin is true.  I don&#8217;t think it is, but it should be tested. And I don&#8217;t think a population of American blacks would be a useful population to include in such a test; you&#8217;d prefer a population from Africa with reasonably limited exposure living among whites.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Phoenician in a time of Romans</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/comment-page-4/#comment-438346</link>
		<dc:creator>Phoenician in a time of Romans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 02:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26871#comment-438346</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Presumably, the default setting of each person&#039;s &quot;normal&quot; perceived skin colour would be based on the faces of the people they grew up around. This offers a possible way to test the hypothesis by measuring where that &quot;normal&quot; setting is and relating it to childhood ethnic background where that is different from the child&#039;s own ethnicity. One problem here is that you&#039;re going to find far more, say,  black people who were bought as kids adopted among whites than you would the other way around. perhaps more urban backgrounds - with a wide exposure to different ethnicities as children - might yield adults with a wider perceptual range.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Presumably, the default setting of each person&#8217;s &#8220;normal&#8221; perceived skin colour would be based on the faces of the people they grew up around. This offers a possible way to test the hypothesis by measuring where that &#8220;normal&#8221; setting is and relating it to childhood ethnic background where that is different from the child&#8217;s own ethnicity. One problem here is that you&#8217;re going to find far more, say,  black people who were bought as kids adopted among whites than you would the other way around. perhaps more urban backgrounds &#8211; with a wide exposure to different ethnicities as children &#8211; might yield adults with a wider perceptual range.</p>
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		<title>By: herr doktor bimler</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/comment-page-4/#comment-438215</link>
		<dc:creator>herr doktor bimler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2012 08:47:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26871#comment-438215</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bill Benzon @166:
&lt;i&gt;Yep, and the existence of eyeglasses, microscopes, and telescopes pretty much proves that the eye’s lens doesn’t exist to focus light on the retina.&lt;/i&gt;

Touche!
But we do know what vertebrate eyes look like when they have evolved to detect subtle social-signalling differences from a narrow band of the spectrum, because they have evolved several times. An earlier comment mentioned that many birds have tetrachromatic vision, i.e. four different photopigments with different spectral tuning. But that is in fact a simplification, because many of them have *five or six* different cone classes -- a particular photopigment might be combined with oil droplets that filter out much of the spectrum, a band-pass filter. Yes, pentachromacy or hexachromacy.
Some reptiles have the same arrangement. Some amphibia. Some fish. Apparently it is easy for evolution to produce vertebrate eyes with narrow-band-pass cones that concentrate on special purposes. 

Someone else mentioned mantis shrimps (so-called because they are neither mantids, nor shrimps, nor the Holy Roman Empire), with 16 cone classes. Some of these classes are specialised for detecting the polarisation of light but 12 of them pick up narrow frequency bands for ecological and social signals.

So primates have evolved a form of trichromacy -- several times, independently -- but none of them have come up with band-pass cones that specialise for the subtleties of blood oxygenation. Meanwhile there are any number of other social mammals but none of them have evolved trichromacy -- not even the hairless ones like mole rats and elephants and cetaceans.

To my mind, this is more compatible with the idea that the benefits of trichromacy lie somewhere else than social interaction (although it might have been subsequently exapted for that purpose)... some other aspect of the ecological niche occupied by frugivorous seed-dispersing primates.

Fruitbats seem to have independently re-invented trichromatic vision by using signals from their rod cells (as well as short-wave-sensitive and long-wave-sensitive cones) with a hack that other mammals haven&#039;t discovered.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill Benzon @166:<br />
<i>Yep, and the existence of eyeglasses, microscopes, and telescopes pretty much proves that the eye’s lens doesn’t exist to focus light on the retina.</i></p>
<p>Touche!<br />
But we do know what vertebrate eyes look like when they have evolved to detect subtle social-signalling differences from a narrow band of the spectrum, because they have evolved several times. An earlier comment mentioned that many birds have tetrachromatic vision, i.e. four different photopigments with different spectral tuning. But that is in fact a simplification, because many of them have *five or six* different cone classes &#8212; a particular photopigment might be combined with oil droplets that filter out much of the spectrum, a band-pass filter. Yes, pentachromacy or hexachromacy.<br />
Some reptiles have the same arrangement. Some amphibia. Some fish. Apparently it is easy for evolution to produce vertebrate eyes with narrow-band-pass cones that concentrate on special purposes. </p>
<p>Someone else mentioned mantis shrimps (so-called because they are neither mantids, nor shrimps, nor the Holy Roman Empire), with 16 cone classes. Some of these classes are specialised for detecting the polarisation of light but 12 of them pick up narrow frequency bands for ecological and social signals.</p>
<p>So primates have evolved a form of trichromacy &#8212; several times, independently &#8212; but none of them have come up with band-pass cones that specialise for the subtleties of blood oxygenation. Meanwhile there are any number of other social mammals but none of them have evolved trichromacy &#8212; not even the hairless ones like mole rats and elephants and cetaceans.</p>
<p>To my mind, this is more compatible with the idea that the benefits of trichromacy lie somewhere else than social interaction (although it might have been subsequently exapted for that purpose)&#8230; some other aspect of the ecological niche occupied by frugivorous seed-dispersing primates.</p>
<p>Fruitbats seem to have independently re-invented trichromatic vision by using signals from their rod cells (as well as short-wave-sensitive and long-wave-sensitive cones) with a hack that other mammals haven&#8217;t discovered.</p>
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		<title>By: Harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/comment-page-4/#comment-438153</link>
		<dc:creator>Harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26871#comment-438153</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The color chip test appears to show that people have the ability to make fine discriminations but they don&#039;t use it to the fullest in their daily lives, clearly. Or rather some groups do and some do not, and some individuals do and some do not. Which we knew before. 

As Mao Cheng Li and many others have pointed out in this thread, evolution is not purposive and to suggest that it is is fallacious. You might as well say that people evolved for the purpose of playing video games, going to the moon, or buying Dr. Changizi&#039;s pink-tinted glasses.

There was a recently published study about blushing in the news, as I recall. I seem to remember that it maintained that people who blushed on confessing a fault were looked upon more kindly by onlookers than those who didn&#039;t. Which suggests off hand that (in the society studied) as social communication,  blushing signals submission, which may be why so it titillated 18th c. libertines like Jefferson. But, as others have remarked, also on this thread, human communications systems necessarily contain multiple redundancies. Human societies employ multiple levels (mostly culturally determined) of  redundant signals, as Birdwhistle pointed out years ago, that overwhelmingly serve to convey non-aggressive intent (&quot;I am a friend, don&#039;t kill me&quot;) -- absolutely vital in cooperative social communities.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The color chip test appears to show that people have the ability to make fine discriminations but they don&#8217;t use it to the fullest in their daily lives, clearly. Or rather some groups do and some do not, and some individuals do and some do not. Which we knew before. </p>
<p>As Mao Cheng Li and many others have pointed out in this thread, evolution is not purposive and to suggest that it is is fallacious. You might as well say that people evolved for the purpose of playing video games, going to the moon, or buying Dr. Changizi&#8217;s pink-tinted glasses.</p>
<p>There was a recently published study about blushing in the news, as I recall. I seem to remember that it maintained that people who blushed on confessing a fault were looked upon more kindly by onlookers than those who didn&#8217;t. Which suggests off hand that (in the society studied) as social communication,  blushing signals submission, which may be why so it titillated 18th c. libertines like Jefferson. But, as others have remarked, also on this thread, human communications systems necessarily contain multiple redundancies. Human societies employ multiple levels (mostly culturally determined) of  redundant signals, as Birdwhistle pointed out years ago, that overwhelmingly serve to convey non-aggressive intent (&#8220;I am a friend, don&#8217;t kill me&#8221;) &#8212; absolutely vital in cooperative social communities.</p>
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		<title>By: herr doktor bimler</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/comment-page-4/#comment-438152</link>
		<dc:creator>herr doktor bimler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26871#comment-438152</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;As for blushing as a deliberate (if by the genes, not the will of the individual) signal, seems likely. But signals are useless unless the target has the means to pick them up&lt;/i&gt;

My comment #163 was not intended as a refutation of anyone&#039;s argument, but rather to raise a possibly-interesting side-topic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>As for blushing as a deliberate (if by the genes, not the will of the individual) signal, seems likely. But signals are useless unless the target has the means to pick them up</i></p>
<p>My comment #163 was not intended as a refutation of anyone&#8217;s argument, but rather to raise a possibly-interesting side-topic.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Mao Cheng Ji</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/comment-page-4/#comment-438137</link>
		<dc:creator>Mao Cheng Ji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26871#comment-438137</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Well, my lewd mind tells me that one clear use of being able to see blushing is “hey, seems that he/she has the hots for me”.&quot;

Of course in the social context any hint can be useful, but it seems unlikely that evolution anticipated that some of the apes are going to be wearing pants and analyzing each other&#039;s faces to ascertain their chances of mating - instead of looking directly at the genitalia. 

To caricature this a little bit: I hear that people tend to cover their mouths with their hands when lying. So, that must be why nature gave them hands.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Well, my lewd mind tells me that one clear use of being able to see blushing is “hey, seems that he/she has the hots for me”.&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course in the social context any hint can be useful, but it seems unlikely that evolution anticipated that some of the apes are going to be wearing pants and analyzing each other&#8217;s faces to ascertain their chances of mating &#8211; instead of looking directly at the genitalia. </p>
<p>To caricature this a little bit: I hear that people tend to cover their mouths with their hands when lying. So, that must be why nature gave them hands.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: bill benzon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/comment-page-4/#comment-438134</link>
		<dc:creator>bill benzon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26871#comment-438134</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In thinking through this discussion I formulated this question and sent it to Changizi: Lots of languages have rather impoverished systems of color terms. Would folks speaking a language that lacked a term for green thereby have more fine-grained perception of greens? He didn&#039;t have an answer but indicated that people are working on that kind of issue. He sent me reprints of two papers that are indeed relevant.

* * * * *

Paul Kay and Terry Regier. Language, thought and color: recent developments. &lt;i&gt;TRENDS in Cognitive Sciences&lt;/i&gt; Vol.10 No.2 February 2006, pp. 51-54

Here&#039;s how Kay and Regier state matters as they existed, say, a quarter of a century ago:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Color naming varies across languages; however, it has long been held that this variation is constrained. Berlin and Kay [1] found that color categories in 20 languages were organized around universal ‘focal colors’ – those colors corresponding principally to the best examples of English ‘black’, ‘white’, ‘red’, ‘yellow’, ‘green’ and ‘blue’. Moreover, a classic set of studies by Eleanor Rosch found that these focal colors were also remembered more accurately than other colors, across speakers of languages with different color naming systems (e.g. [2]). Focal colors seemed to constitute a universal cognitive basis for both color language and color memory.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Research conducted in the last decade or so has called those conclusions into question. Kay and Regier present and discuss this work and offer this summary:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
The debate over color naming and cognition can be clarified by discarding the traditional ‘universals versus relativity’ framing, which collapses important distinctions. There are universal constraints on color naming, but at the same time, differences in color naming across languages cause differences in color cognition and/or perception. The source of the universal constraints is not firmly established. However, it appears that it can be said that nature proposes and nurture disposes. Finally, ‘categorical perception’ of color might well be perception sensu stricto, but the jury is still out.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The key proposition is that &quot;differences in color naming across languages cause differences in color cognition and/or perception.&quot; 

* * * * *

Paul Kay and Terry Regier, Resolving the question of color naming universals, &lt;i&gt;PNAS&lt;/i&gt;, vol. 100, no. 15, July 22, 2003, pp. 9085-9089.

Abstract:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
The existence of cross-linguistic universals in color naming is currently contested. Early empirical studies, based principally on languages of industrialized societies, suggested that all languages may draw on a universally shared repertoire of color categories. Recent work, in contrast, based on languages from nonindustrialized societies, has suggested that color categories may not be universal. No comprehensive objective tests have yet been conducted to resolve this issue. We conduct such tests on color naming data from languages of both industrialized and nonindustrialized societies and show that strong universal tendencies in color naming exist across both sorts of language.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
From the methodology discussion:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
The central empirical focus of our study was the color naming data of the Word Color Survey (WCS). The WCS was undertaken in response to the above-mentioned shortcomings of the BK [Berlin and Kay] data (1): it has collected color naming data in situ from 110 unwritten languages spoken in small-scale, nonindustrialized societies, from an average of 24 native speakers per language (mode: 25 speakers), insofar as possible monolinguals. Speakers were asked to name each of 330 color chips produced by the Munsell Color Company (New Windsor, NY), representing 40 gradations of hue at eight levels of value (lightness) and maximal available chroma (saturation), plus 10 neutral (black-gray-white) chips at 10 levels of value. Chips were presented in a fixed random order for naming. The array of all color chips is shown in Fig. 1. (The actual stimulus colors may not be faithfully represented there.) In addition, each speaker was asked to indicate the best example(s) of each of his or her basic color terms. The original BK study used a color array that was nearly identical to this, except that it lacked the lightest neutral chip. The languages investigated in the WCS and BK are listed in Tables 1 and 2.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The concluding paragraph:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
The application of statistical tests to the color naming data of
the WCS has established three points: (i) there are clear
cross-linguistic statistical tendencies for named color categories
to cluster at certain privileged points in perceptual color space;
(ii) these privileged points are similar for the unwritten languages
of nonindustrialized communities and the written languages
of industrialized societies; and (iii) these privileged points
tend to lie near, although not always at, those colors named red,
yellow, green, blue, purple, brown, orange, pink, black, white,
and gray in English.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In thinking through this discussion I formulated this question and sent it to Changizi: Lots of languages have rather impoverished systems of color terms. Would folks speaking a language that lacked a term for green thereby have more fine-grained perception of greens? He didn&#8217;t have an answer but indicated that people are working on that kind of issue. He sent me reprints of two papers that are indeed relevant.</p>
<p>* * * * *</p>
<p>Paul Kay and Terry Regier. Language, thought and color: recent developments. <i>TRENDS in Cognitive Sciences</i> Vol.10 No.2 February 2006, pp. 51-54</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s how Kay and Regier state matters as they existed, say, a quarter of a century ago:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Color naming varies across languages; however, it has long been held that this variation is constrained. Berlin and Kay [1] found that color categories in 20 languages were organized around universal ‘focal colors’ – those colors corresponding principally to the best examples of English ‘black’, ‘white’, ‘red’, ‘yellow’, ‘green’ and ‘blue’. Moreover, a classic set of studies by Eleanor Rosch found that these focal colors were also remembered more accurately than other colors, across speakers of languages with different color naming systems (e.g. [2]). Focal colors seemed to constitute a universal cognitive basis for both color language and color memory.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Research conducted in the last decade or so has called those conclusions into question. Kay and Regier present and discuss this work and offer this summary:</p>
<blockquote><p>
The debate over color naming and cognition can be clarified by discarding the traditional ‘universals versus relativity’ framing, which collapses important distinctions. There are universal constraints on color naming, but at the same time, differences in color naming across languages cause differences in color cognition and/or perception. The source of the universal constraints is not firmly established. However, it appears that it can be said that nature proposes and nurture disposes. Finally, ‘categorical perception’ of color might well be perception sensu stricto, but the jury is still out.
</p></blockquote>
<p>The key proposition is that &#8220;differences in color naming across languages cause differences in color cognition and/or perception.&#8221; </p>
<p>* * * * *</p>
<p>Paul Kay and Terry Regier, Resolving the question of color naming universals, <i>PNAS</i>, vol. 100, no. 15, July 22, 2003, pp. 9085-9089.</p>
<p>Abstract:</p>
<blockquote><p>
The existence of cross-linguistic universals in color naming is currently contested. Early empirical studies, based principally on languages of industrialized societies, suggested that all languages may draw on a universally shared repertoire of color categories. Recent work, in contrast, based on languages from nonindustrialized societies, has suggested that color categories may not be universal. No comprehensive objective tests have yet been conducted to resolve this issue. We conduct such tests on color naming data from languages of both industrialized and nonindustrialized societies and show that strong universal tendencies in color naming exist across both sorts of language.
</p></blockquote>
<p>From the methodology discussion:</p>
<blockquote><p>
The central empirical focus of our study was the color naming data of the Word Color Survey (WCS). The WCS was undertaken in response to the above-mentioned shortcomings of the BK [Berlin and Kay] data (1): it has collected color naming data in situ from 110 unwritten languages spoken in small-scale, nonindustrialized societies, from an average of 24 native speakers per language (mode: 25 speakers), insofar as possible monolinguals. Speakers were asked to name each of 330 color chips produced by the Munsell Color Company (New Windsor, NY), representing 40 gradations of hue at eight levels of value (lightness) and maximal available chroma (saturation), plus 10 neutral (black-gray-white) chips at 10 levels of value. Chips were presented in a fixed random order for naming. The array of all color chips is shown in Fig. 1. (The actual stimulus colors may not be faithfully represented there.) In addition, each speaker was asked to indicate the best example(s) of each of his or her basic color terms. The original BK study used a color array that was nearly identical to this, except that it lacked the lightest neutral chip. The languages investigated in the WCS and BK are listed in Tables 1 and 2.
</p></blockquote>
<p>The concluding paragraph:</p>
<blockquote><p>
The application of statistical tests to the color naming data of<br />
the WCS has established three points: (i) there are clear<br />
cross-linguistic statistical tendencies for named color categories<br />
to cluster at certain privileged points in perceptual color space;<br />
(ii) these privileged points are similar for the unwritten languages<br />
of nonindustrialized communities and the written languages<br />
of industrialized societies; and (iii) these privileged points<br />
tend to lie near, although not always at, those colors named red,<br />
yellow, green, blue, purple, brown, orange, pink, black, white,<br />
and gray in English.
</p></blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Latro</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/comment-page-4/#comment-438131</link>
		<dc:creator>Latro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:19:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26871#comment-438131</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, my lewd mind tells me that one clear use of being able to see blushing is &quot;hey, seems that he/she has the hots for me&quot;.

That it gets triggered by a ton of other things apart from omg the guy/girl I like is talking to me may be part of our messy unintelligent design :-P]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, my lewd mind tells me that one clear use of being able to see blushing is &#8220;hey, seems that he/she has the hots for me&#8221;.</p>
<p>That it gets triggered by a ton of other things apart from omg the guy/girl I like is talking to me may be part of our messy unintelligent design :-P</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Mao Cheng Ji</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/comment-page-4/#comment-438130</link>
		<dc:creator>Mao Cheng Ji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:11:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26871#comment-438130</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The fact that blushing manifests in a change of skin color might very well be coincidental, completely irrelevant to its real function (if there is one), and a completely useless phenomenon to be observed by a third party...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that blushing manifests in a change of skin color might very well be coincidental, completely irrelevant to its real function (if there is one), and a completely useless phenomenon to be observed by a third party&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: bill benzon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/comment-page-4/#comment-438127</link>
		<dc:creator>bill benzon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26871#comment-438127</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As for blushing as a deliberate (if by the genes, not the will of the individual) signal, seems likely. But signals are useless unless the target has the means to pick them up. And Changizi is arguing that, yes, human color vision evolved to give us the means.

If you keep this up you&#039;re going to re-create his theory, all by way of proving him wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for blushing as a deliberate (if by the genes, not the will of the individual) signal, seems likely. But signals are useless unless the target has the means to pick them up. And Changizi is arguing that, yes, human color vision evolved to give us the means.</p>
<p>If you keep this up you&#8217;re going to re-create his theory, all by way of proving him wrong.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: bill benzon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/comment-page-4/#comment-438126</link>
		<dc:creator>bill benzon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:27:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26871#comment-438126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yo, herr doktor: &lt;i&gt;There seems to be a tacit admission here that in fact human vision has *not* been optimised for detecting fluctuations in vascular flow.&lt;/i&gt;

Yep, and the existence of eyeglasses, microscopes, and telescopes pretty much proves that the eye&#039;s lens doesn&#039;t exist to focus light on the retina.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yo, herr doktor: <i>There seems to be a tacit admission here that in fact human vision has *not* been optimised for detecting fluctuations in vascular flow.</i></p>
<p>Yep, and the existence of eyeglasses, microscopes, and telescopes pretty much proves that the eye&#8217;s lens doesn&#8217;t exist to focus light on the retina.</p>
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		<title>By: SusanC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/comment-page-4/#comment-438124</link>
		<dc:creator>SusanC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 08:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26871#comment-438124</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@162. There has been a fair amount of nature photography in the near IR and UV as it&#039;s well known that some plants are brightly patterned at frequencies invisible to humans, but visible to their pollinating insects. See for example http://www.naturfotograf.com/. 

(Glass tends to be opaque to UV, so you need special lenses for UV. Also, many modern cameras use IR LEDs to sense the film, and so can be used with a very near IR film like Ilford SFX, but won&#039;t work with a film that goes further into the IR, like one from Kodak ... I&#039;ve only ever done IR photograph with a film SLR, and the methods for digital cameras are probably different).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@162. There has been a fair amount of nature photography in the near IR and UV as it&#8217;s well known that some plants are brightly patterned at frequencies invisible to humans, but visible to their pollinating insects. See for example <a href="http://www.naturfotograf.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.naturfotograf.com/</a>. </p>
<p>(Glass tends to be opaque to UV, so you need special lenses for UV. Also, many modern cameras use IR LEDs to sense the film, and so can be used with a very near IR film like Ilford SFX, but won&#8217;t work with a film that goes further into the IR, like one from Kodak &#8230; I&#8217;ve only ever done IR photograph with a film SLR, and the methods for digital cameras are probably different).</p>
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		<title>By: herr doktor bimler</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/comment-page-4/#comment-438123</link>
		<dc:creator>herr doktor bimler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 08:50:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26871#comment-438123</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt; I don’t understand why we don’t have a better idea of what birds and butterflies look like in the ultraviolet. &lt;/i&gt;

A lot of it, for birds, seems to be advertising sexual fitness. Melanin in feathers makes them less digestible by parasites. Pure white melanin-free feathers come with a cost (to say nothing of the cost of engineering the special microstructure that can scatter light properly) . If you are a bird of the right species, parading around with a patch of white feathers (scattering UV light as well as visible) is a way of announcing &quot;Hey, I&#039;m so healthy that I don&#039;t have to worry about parasites nibbling my plumage, don&#039;t you want my babies?&quot;

&lt;i&gt; Consider a tribe of monkeys, some of whom can by sight descry ripe fruit at a distance. Once they near the trees where the good stuff can be found, smell and taste allow those less visually endowed to share the bounty&lt;/i&gt;

Exactly. Hence the New World species where some of the females are trichromatic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> I don’t understand why we don’t have a better idea of what birds and butterflies look like in the ultraviolet. </i></p>
<p>A lot of it, for birds, seems to be advertising sexual fitness. Melanin in feathers makes them less digestible by parasites. Pure white melanin-free feathers come with a cost (to say nothing of the cost of engineering the special microstructure that can scatter light properly) . If you are a bird of the right species, parading around with a patch of white feathers (scattering UV light as well as visible) is a way of announcing &#8220;Hey, I&#8217;m so healthy that I don&#8217;t have to worry about parasites nibbling my plumage, don&#8217;t you want my babies?&#8221;</p>
<p><i> Consider a tribe of monkeys, some of whom can by sight descry ripe fruit at a distance. Once they near the trees where the good stuff can be found, smell and taste allow those less visually endowed to share the bounty</i></p>
<p>Exactly. Hence the New World species where some of the females are trichromatic.</p>
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		<title>By: herr doktor bimler</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/comment-page-4/#comment-438122</link>
		<dc:creator>herr doktor bimler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 08:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26871#comment-438122</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;A funny thing, though. I blush easily, it doesn’t take much to make me tear up, but I don’t recall ever noticing someone blushing.&lt;/i&gt;

Blushing puzzles me. Everyone talks about blushing as if it were an accidental escape of mood-state information that we would prefer to keep concealed... providing an evolutionary advantage for anyone who has evolved the ability to detect this information channel. And I can see the temptation of this way of thinking because it fits into the common metaphor of the face as a window into the soul. 

But presumably the tendency to blush &lt;b&gt;has evolved/b&gt;. It is a signal &lt;/b&gt;&lt;b&gt;we broadcast&lt;/b&gt;, purposefully, because it was advantageous for our ancestors to blush under similar situations (as well as for their companions who noticed the social signal). Same as any other emotional signal. But what is the message?

Seems to me that there is an interesting evo-psych story waiting to be told about the blushing phenomenon (and apologies to Chingizi if he does in fact tell that story).

harold:
&lt;i&gt;he seems (at first blush) not to refer to what well known people have said about the subject of color over the millennia&lt;/i&gt;
I see what you do there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>A funny thing, though. I blush easily, it doesn’t take much to make me tear up, but I don’t recall ever noticing someone blushing.</i></p>
<p>Blushing puzzles me. Everyone talks about blushing as if it were an accidental escape of mood-state information that we would prefer to keep concealed&#8230; providing an evolutionary advantage for anyone who has evolved the ability to detect this information channel. And I can see the temptation of this way of thinking because it fits into the common metaphor of the face as a window into the soul. </p>
<p>But presumably the tendency to blush <b>has evolved/b&gt;. It is a signal </b><b>we broadcast</b>, purposefully, because it was advantageous for our ancestors to blush under similar situations (as well as for their companions who noticed the social signal). Same as any other emotional signal. But what is the message?</p>
<p>Seems to me that there is an interesting evo-psych story waiting to be told about the blushing phenomenon (and apologies to Chingizi if he does in fact tell that story).</p>
<p>harold:<br />
<i>he seems (at first blush) not to refer to what well known people have said about the subject of color over the millennia</i><br />
I see what you do there.</p>
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		<title>By: bad Jim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/08/why-cant-we-say-what-color-our-skin-is/comment-page-4/#comment-438121</link>
		<dc:creator>bad Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 08:26:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26871#comment-438121</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks also to ragweed at 151. I don&#039;t understand why we don&#039;t have a better idea of what birds and butterflies look like in the ultraviolet. We&#039;ve become accustomed to looking at various astronomical phenomena in wavelengths unavailable to human vision but remapped to our usual range, but I&#039;m unaware of any efforts to render the 4-color splendor of our fellow creatures in common fashion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks also to ragweed at 151. I don&#8217;t understand why we don&#8217;t have a better idea of what birds and butterflies look like in the ultraviolet. We&#8217;ve become accustomed to looking at various astronomical phenomena in wavelengths unavailable to human vision but remapped to our usual range, but I&#8217;m unaware of any efforts to render the 4-color splendor of our fellow creatures in common fashion.</p>
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