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	<title>Comments on: Heckman on predistribution</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: joe koss</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/comment-page-3/#comment-438253</link>
		<dc:creator>joe koss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2012 16:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26302#comment-438253</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very nice compendium. Thanks for the post. 

I lived in Tulsa for 1 year, and it seemed to me that one of the great community benefits of their Pre-K program is that it has been completely absorbed &lt;i&gt;into&lt;/i&gt; the K-12 system, both at the policy and funding level &lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt; in the minds of just about everyone else, so that school starts at 4, or 3 even now in some parts around Tulsa, and everyone views this as the status quo. 

The first policy move by the Obama and the Department of Ed to me would seem to be to mimic this, so that Pre-K and its funding isn&#039;t something additional we tack on if we have the extra money, and cut when we don&#039;t,  but rather it is something we just start &quot;schooling&quot; with. 

It also helps that Tulsa has George Kaiser.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very nice compendium. Thanks for the post. </p>
<p>I lived in Tulsa for 1 year, and it seemed to me that one of the great community benefits of their Pre-K program is that it has been completely absorbed <i>into</i> the K-12 system, both at the policy and funding level <i>and</i> in the minds of just about everyone else, so that school starts at 4, or 3 even now in some parts around Tulsa, and everyone views this as the status quo. </p>
<p>The first policy move by the Obama and the Department of Ed to me would seem to be to mimic this, so that Pre-K and its funding isn&#8217;t something additional we tack on if we have the extra money, and cut when we don&#8217;t,  but rather it is something we just start &#8220;schooling&#8221; with. </p>
<p>It also helps that Tulsa has George Kaiser.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/comment-page-3/#comment-438227</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2012 13:09:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26302#comment-438227</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Greg, could you please link to some good examples of her work?

Thanks!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg, could you please link to some good examples of her work?</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: et</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/comment-page-3/#comment-438190</link>
		<dc:creator>et</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2012 04:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26302#comment-438190</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why is &quot;Mother&#039;s level of education&quot; considered a constant? 
A lot cab change in 18 years.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is &#8220;Mother&#8217;s level of education&#8221; considered a constant?<br />
A lot cab change in 18 years.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Marquez</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/comment-page-3/#comment-438173</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Marquez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2012 00:32:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26302#comment-438173</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Little dissappointed that you didn&#039;t link to Carol Dweck&#039;s response. She&#039;s a Stanford Prof. who&#039;s been studying these things from a different perspective for years. She&#039;s focusing on getting people to stop thinking that they are more or less talented, more or less inteligent, more or less good at math, and instead teaching them that talent, inteligence, math ability are growable. She&#039;s had some great results.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Little dissappointed that you didn&#8217;t link to Carol Dweck&#8217;s response. She&#8217;s a Stanford Prof. who&#8217;s been studying these things from a different perspective for years. She&#8217;s focusing on getting people to stop thinking that they are more or less talented, more or less inteligent, more or less good at math, and instead teaching them that talent, inteligence, math ability are growable. She&#8217;s had some great results.</p>
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		<title>By: Suzanne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/comment-page-3/#comment-438166</link>
		<dc:creator>Suzanne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 23:22:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26302#comment-438166</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot; Late remediation strategies designed to compensate for early disadvantage—job training programs, high school classroom size reductions, GED programs, convict rehabilitation programs, and adult literacy programs—are not effective, at least not as currently constituted, and not on their own.&quot;

Seems a tad dismissive. It&#039;s understandable that job training programs have limited success for those who&#039;ve already been laid off, unemployed for some time, and thus automatically dismissed as undesirables by prospective employers, to take only one possibility. I understand that in Germany, for example, workers receive their job training upgrades while on the job without being fired. I can well believe these remedies are  ineffective &quot;as currently constituted,&quot; but that seems to miss the point. 

97&quot;.... if the poor behave more like the middle class, the middle class will have more trouble voting for policies to hurt the poor. &quot; 

That was part of the rationale behind Clinton&#039;s welfare reform, as I remember. Low regard for the poor does not appear to have been unduly mitigated in the decades since.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; Late remediation strategies designed to compensate for early disadvantage—job training programs, high school classroom size reductions, GED programs, convict rehabilitation programs, and adult literacy programs—are not effective, at least not as currently constituted, and not on their own.&#8221;</p>
<p>Seems a tad dismissive. It&#8217;s understandable that job training programs have limited success for those who&#8217;ve already been laid off, unemployed for some time, and thus automatically dismissed as undesirables by prospective employers, to take only one possibility. I understand that in Germany, for example, workers receive their job training upgrades while on the job without being fired. I can well believe these remedies are  ineffective &#8220;as currently constituted,&#8221; but that seems to miss the point. </p>
<p>97&#8243;&#8230;. if the poor behave more like the middle class, the middle class will have more trouble voting for policies to hurt the poor. &#8221; </p>
<p>That was part of the rationale behind Clinton&#8217;s welfare reform, as I remember. Low regard for the poor does not appear to have been unduly mitigated in the decades since.</p>
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		<title>By: dbk</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/comment-page-3/#comment-438119</link>
		<dc:creator>dbk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 07:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26302#comment-438119</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Directly relevant to the OP: a piece up on alternet re: Oklahoma&#039;s early education program, gradually introduced over the course of the past 10-15 years. Today it includes nearly all four-year-olds, and is set to include nearly all three-year-olds in the immediate future. The results, which were tested for across the entire Tulsa school system,  are  impressive, as are the legislative and funding strategies employed to secure the program long enough to ensure its stability/success.  

Lane Kenworthy, btw, has an opinion piece up on CSM, where he cites Heckman&#039;s work.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Directly relevant to the OP: a piece up on alternet re: Oklahoma&#8217;s early education program, gradually introduced over the course of the past 10-15 years. Today it includes nearly all four-year-olds, and is set to include nearly all three-year-olds in the immediate future. The results, which were tested for across the entire Tulsa school system,  are  impressive, as are the legislative and funding strategies employed to secure the program long enough to ensure its stability/success.  </p>
<p>Lane Kenworthy, btw, has an opinion piece up on CSM, where he cites Heckman&#8217;s work.</p>
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		<title>By: Meredith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/comment-page-3/#comment-438118</link>
		<dc:creator>Meredith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 06:46:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26302#comment-438118</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wondering about the song, &quot;Ain&#039;t We Got Fun,&quot; that rattles around in my head as I think about this whole post and that I&#039;ve known, somehow, since forever, I checked Wikipedia:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain&#039;t_We_Got_Fun%3F

Worth a look. We Americans have been here before (or never really left).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wondering about the song, &#8220;Ain&#8217;t We Got Fun,&#8221; that rattles around in my head as I think about this whole post and that I&#8217;ve known, somehow, since forever, I checked Wikipedia:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain&#039;t_We_Got_Fun%3F" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain&#039;t_We_Got_Fun%3F</a></p>
<p>Worth a look. We Americans have been here before (or never really left).</p>
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		<title>By: Harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/comment-page-3/#comment-438117</link>
		<dc:creator>Harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 06:38:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26302#comment-438117</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is definitely rural Maryland.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is definitely rural Maryland.</p>
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		<title>By: Meredith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/comment-page-2/#comment-438116</link>
		<dc:creator>Meredith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 06:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26302#comment-438116</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@99Watson Ladd, and in support: or, they&#039;re working two minimum wage jobs (or make that three, or four, or more) with a (well, pretty, sorta) stable (= not utterly dysfunctional) family AND alternating between all the things you cite. It&#039;s also about rural New England or probably rural anywhere, not to mention urban anywheres. OF COURSE larger issues of re- and pre-distribution are crucial. In the meantime, in-between time, as process working toward the full time, we need to attend to the real limitations and needs of here-and-now people. Both big and small at once. Ain&#039;t we got fun. (No, and yes, if we stop quibbling with one another.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@99Watson Ladd, and in support: or, they&#8217;re working two minimum wage jobs (or make that three, or four, or more) with a (well, pretty, sorta) stable (= not utterly dysfunctional) family AND alternating between all the things you cite. It&#8217;s also about rural New England or probably rural anywhere, not to mention urban anywheres. OF COURSE larger issues of re- and pre-distribution are crucial. In the meantime, in-between time, as process working toward the full time, we need to attend to the real limitations and needs of here-and-now people. Both big and small at once. Ain&#8217;t we got fun. (No, and yes, if we stop quibbling with one another.)</p>
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		<title>By: Watson Ladd</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/comment-page-2/#comment-438111</link>
		<dc:creator>Watson Ladd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 03:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26302#comment-438111</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[purple, the poor people we are talking about are not working two minimum wage jobs with a stable family. They are alternating between various informal sectors of the economy, prison, and various support services. This isn&#039;t about working class suburbs. This is about the South Side and rural Appalachia, places where you have families where no one has ever held a steady job. These people don&#039;t even count in the unemployment rate, because they aren&#039;t looking for jobs or are incarcerated.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>purple, the poor people we are talking about are not working two minimum wage jobs with a stable family. They are alternating between various informal sectors of the economy, prison, and various support services. This isn&#8217;t about working class suburbs. This is about the South Side and rural Appalachia, places where you have families where no one has ever held a steady job. These people don&#8217;t even count in the unemployment rate, because they aren&#8217;t looking for jobs or are incarcerated.</p>
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		<title>By: purple</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/comment-page-2/#comment-438109</link>
		<dc:creator>purple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 03:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26302#comment-438109</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is poverty because WalMart jobs pay $8.00 an hour. It&#039;s not complicate.

If you want to reduce poverty  a good start would be to double the minimum wage.

Then maybe those ignorant poor folks could take their kids to private ballet lessons.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is poverty because WalMart jobs pay $8.00 an hour. It&#8217;s not complicate.</p>
<p>If you want to reduce poverty  a good start would be to double the minimum wage.</p>
<p>Then maybe those ignorant poor folks could take their kids to private ballet lessons.</p>
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		<title>By: slim's tuna provider</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/comment-page-2/#comment-438103</link>
		<dc:creator>slim's tuna provider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 01:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26302#comment-438103</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i think that heckman&#039;s approach may have the benefit of solving the political problem, at the very least. if the poor behave more like the middle class, the middle class will have more trouble voting for policies to hurt the poor. 

in other words, while we can debate what the causes of the &quot;culture of poverty&quot; are and whether it&#039;s &quot;real&quot;, to the average person it sure LOOKS real. hell, it even looks real to me, a lifelong democrat. on a pissy morning, i wonder why i vote with the guys who are not subjected to the tyrranny of an outlook calendar (answer -- in part because the other side also has those guys, and they want me out of the country fur being a goldurn commie immigrant jew). 

on the other hand, the number of people who recently viciously turned on their neighbors who are teachers and nurses because they were in a union may make my comment look stupid.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think that heckman&#8217;s approach may have the benefit of solving the political problem, at the very least. if the poor behave more like the middle class, the middle class will have more trouble voting for policies to hurt the poor. </p>
<p>in other words, while we can debate what the causes of the &#8220;culture of poverty&#8221; are and whether it&#8217;s &#8220;real&#8221;, to the average person it sure LOOKS real. hell, it even looks real to me, a lifelong democrat. on a pissy morning, i wonder why i vote with the guys who are not subjected to the tyrranny of an outlook calendar (answer &#8212; in part because the other side also has those guys, and they want me out of the country fur being a goldurn commie immigrant jew). </p>
<p>on the other hand, the number of people who recently viciously turned on their neighbors who are teachers and nurses because they were in a union may make my comment look stupid.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Weidner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/comment-page-2/#comment-438101</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Weidner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 00:42:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26302#comment-438101</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[adam.smith (@86):

I&#039;ll admit that I hadn&#039;t read any Heckman before this. I have read quite a lot of Becker. It appears from a casual glance at Heckman&#039;s work that he is more empirically oriented and less theoretical than Becker, but that his empirical research is very much consistent with the theoretical framework established by Becker and others. I&#039;ll be glad to be corrected if that&#039;s not the case.

Now, it&#039;s true that Friedman proposed a negative tax, although he never really did much to advocate for that, certainly nothing even close to his advocacy for privatization, deregulation, etc.--leading one to question how much that was a cover for what were otherwise regressive policies social welfare-wise.  

It&#039;s also true that other neoliberals are okay with some forms of assistance to the poor, but notice that the basis for that, as it appears to be with Heckman, is not really a question of promoting equality, social welfare, or even the general well-being; it&#039;s a question of efficiency. For neoliberals like Becker and Heckman (and, yes, their position is fundamentally the same on this), looking through the lens of human capital means seeing poor people as wasted resources, as symptomatic of an underinvestment in their human potential. 

While it is certainly laudable to wish to invest in people (and how could one not be in favor of this?) this leaves out the more important question of why some people have less ability to thrive than others. Or, rather, it focuses on the individual instead of the larger social and economic structures that are productive of the poor, the precarious, and the marginalized. But this is a point made others have already made here and in response to Heckman&#039;s original article.

mpowell: Okay, even if we accept that for neoliberal theory competition between individuals for jobs leads to technological innovation (and I&#039;m not convinced that&#039;s the case), it&#039;s still tangential to my argument.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>adam.smith (@86):</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll admit that I hadn&#8217;t read any Heckman before this. I have read quite a lot of Becker. It appears from a casual glance at Heckman&#8217;s work that he is more empirically oriented and less theoretical than Becker, but that his empirical research is very much consistent with the theoretical framework established by Becker and others. I&#8217;ll be glad to be corrected if that&#8217;s not the case.</p>
<p>Now, it&#8217;s true that Friedman proposed a negative tax, although he never really did much to advocate for that, certainly nothing even close to his advocacy for privatization, deregulation, etc.&#8211;leading one to question how much that was a cover for what were otherwise regressive policies social welfare-wise.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s also true that other neoliberals are okay with some forms of assistance to the poor, but notice that the basis for that, as it appears to be with Heckman, is not really a question of promoting equality, social welfare, or even the general well-being; it&#8217;s a question of efficiency. For neoliberals like Becker and Heckman (and, yes, their position is fundamentally the same on this), looking through the lens of human capital means seeing poor people as wasted resources, as symptomatic of an underinvestment in their human potential. </p>
<p>While it is certainly laudable to wish to invest in people (and how could one not be in favor of this?) this leaves out the more important question of why some people have less ability to thrive than others. Or, rather, it focuses on the individual instead of the larger social and economic structures that are productive of the poor, the precarious, and the marginalized. But this is a point made others have already made here and in response to Heckman&#8217;s original article.</p>
<p>mpowell: Okay, even if we accept that for neoliberal theory competition between individuals for jobs leads to technological innovation (and I&#8217;m not convinced that&#8217;s the case), it&#8217;s still tangential to my argument.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/comment-page-2/#comment-438097</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2012 23:13:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26302#comment-438097</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[(Apologies for the drive-by. I&#039;m gone.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Apologies for the drive-by. I&#8217;m gone.)</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2012/12/09/heckman-on-predistribution/comment-page-2/#comment-438096</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2012 23:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=26302#comment-438096</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The feminists support me in email!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The feminists support me in email!</p>
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