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	<title>Comments on: Obama should pardon Aaron Swartz &#8230; and Bradley Manning</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 20:37:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/comment-page-3/#comment-449684</link>
		<dc:creator>Harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 05:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27212#comment-449684</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gee, the 1912 issue of Romance Philology must be worth about $200.00!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gee, the 1912 issue of Romance Philology must be worth about $200.00!</p>
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		<title>By: Harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/comment-page-3/#comment-449672</link>
		<dc:creator>Harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 04:32:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27212#comment-449672</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have long had the right to download Jstor articles, probably including some &quot;terribly valuable&quot; ones by Milton Friedman  (forsooth), for free, through my library. What universe does Ezra Abrams inhabit? Someone has been watching too many spy thrillers. Didn&#039;t they get the message that Jstor had dropped charges and opened its archives to the general public?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have long had the right to download Jstor articles, probably including some &#8220;terribly valuable&#8221; ones by Milton Friedman  (forsooth), for free, through my library. What universe does Ezra Abrams inhabit? Someone has been watching too many spy thrillers. Didn&#8217;t they get the message that Jstor had dropped charges and opened its archives to the general public?</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/comment-page-3/#comment-449671</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 04:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27212#comment-449671</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To defend the politics of the post, it&#039;s not as if we are trying to get Aaron released from jail, in which case it would be important not to link his case to more controversial examples of similarly oppressive behavior. 

What matters now is to push back on as many fronts as possible. If people feel comfortable pushing back on the abuse of prosecution power in ordinary criminal cases, but not in national security cases (or vice versa), I don&#039;t think they should see a problem in getting support from those who want to take a broader views.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To defend the politics of the post, it&#8217;s not as if we are trying to get Aaron released from jail, in which case it would be important not to link his case to more controversial examples of similarly oppressive behavior. </p>
<p>What matters now is to push back on as many fronts as possible. If people feel comfortable pushing back on the abuse of prosecution power in ordinary criminal cases, but not in national security cases (or vice versa), I don&#8217;t think they should see a problem in getting support from those who want to take a broader views.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Puchalsky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/comment-page-3/#comment-449667</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Puchalsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 03:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27212#comment-449667</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Did ezra&#039;s younger sibling find his password, or something?

It&#039;s the &quot;Gosh, that includes Milton Friedmann!&quot; that makes the piece work for me.  That and the One Million Dollars Point Zero Zero Cents.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did ezra&#8217;s younger sibling find his password, or something?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the &#8220;Gosh, that includes Milton Friedmann!&#8221; that makes the piece work for me.  That and the One Million Dollars Point Zero Zero Cents.</p>
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		<title>By: ezra abrams</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/comment-page-3/#comment-449660</link>
		<dc:creator>ezra abrams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 03:42:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27212#comment-449660</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From what I read, 
Aaron Swartz was a genius with a passion for information and helping people
he had a serious mental illness, and his suicide, esp at a young age, is horrible.
Against this, and his puppy dog good looks, how do we value the facts ?

What are the Facts ?
An idealistic young man goes to great lengths (see todays N Y Times) to hack into a computer at MIT and download private property – the JSTOR data base (in shorthand  - the lawyers may describe the property differently)
The young man had, at least in the past, clearly expressed intentions  to use the stolen database in  a manner e contrary to the desires of the property owner, and injurious to the owner’s financial interest.

It is very difficult to value the JSTOR database, but inasmuch as it has 4,000,000 plus articles (or the rights to those articles, or the right to download them as pdfs) including many seminal papers by titans like Milton Friedmann, and inasmuch as many people pay $10 or more for one article, a market value of $1,000,000.00 seems like a fair minimum (not to mention the hefty site license collected from universitys)
Given all this, what is an appropriate sentence ?
We all have views here, but does 6 months, probably in one of those country club min security federal prisons, really seem so out of line ?
This is why I don&#039;t understand peoples reactions:  you are as smart as AS, you steal close to a million dollars, you should know that in prev cases very stiff penalties have been bruited about, and you should not be surprised if the cops take a dim view of your activities - it is a universal truism that whistle blowers are never rewarded; they wind up on the trash heap of history. Reality is a harsh mistress
In any event, 6 months isn’t harsh
Being kidnapped by Islamist terrorists, and forced to sit blindfolded, hours on end, with a bomb aroundyour neck, that’s harsh
Days of solitary confinement, like Manning, that’s harsh.

Most of the arguments of AS supporters depend on one thing – that 6 months was so harsh it shocks the conscious.
Like the idea that loss of voting rights was a terrible burden.
Get real; are you really going to tell me that a computer genius of AS level couldn’t do 100 times more with his skills then with his single solitary vote ?
The idea that Aaron’s suicide is somehow the fault of the prosecuter – maybe, maybe not; I don’t know how this sort of thing is handled.
But, either Aaron was an adult, able to manage his own affairs, or he wasn&#039;t; that may be harsh, but that is how our society works - for better or worse, you are free to choose; he choose, and *he should have known* that crimminal charges might be brought.
And why on earth is 6months so bad ? Lots of people who do civil disobediance wear their prison terms as a badge of honor - you all know what Thoreau said to Emerson, don&#039;t you ?

There is just this weird sense of faux naivete about this; you do all these criminal acts, how can you be surprised at a criminal charge ? in the real world ?
As for all this crocodile tear stuff about how the prosecutor coerced him by charging him with crimes that carry horrendous penalties – get real; that is completely, totally SOP in the US today.
If you want to take the AS case (and ignore all the poor people without friends) as an example of prosecutorial over reach, fine – but if AS was 1/20th as smart as they say, he shouldn’t have been so surprised.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From what I read,<br />
Aaron Swartz was a genius with a passion for information and helping people<br />
he had a serious mental illness, and his suicide, esp at a young age, is horrible.<br />
Against this, and his puppy dog good looks, how do we value the facts ?</p>
<p>What are the Facts ?<br />
An idealistic young man goes to great lengths (see todays N Y Times) to hack into a computer at MIT and download private property – the JSTOR data base (in shorthand  &#8211; the lawyers may describe the property differently)<br />
The young man had, at least in the past, clearly expressed intentions  to use the stolen database in  a manner e contrary to the desires of the property owner, and injurious to the owner’s financial interest.</p>
<p>It is very difficult to value the JSTOR database, but inasmuch as it has 4,000,000 plus articles (or the rights to those articles, or the right to download them as pdfs) including many seminal papers by titans like Milton Friedmann, and inasmuch as many people pay $10 or more for one article, a market value of $1,000,000.00 seems like a fair minimum (not to mention the hefty site license collected from universitys)<br />
Given all this, what is an appropriate sentence ?<br />
We all have views here, but does 6 months, probably in one of those country club min security federal prisons, really seem so out of line ?<br />
This is why I don&#8217;t understand peoples reactions:  you are as smart as AS, you steal close to a million dollars, you should know that in prev cases very stiff penalties have been bruited about, and you should not be surprised if the cops take a dim view of your activities &#8211; it is a universal truism that whistle blowers are never rewarded; they wind up on the trash heap of history. Reality is a harsh mistress<br />
In any event, 6 months isn’t harsh<br />
Being kidnapped by Islamist terrorists, and forced to sit blindfolded, hours on end, with a bomb aroundyour neck, that’s harsh<br />
Days of solitary confinement, like Manning, that’s harsh.</p>
<p>Most of the arguments of AS supporters depend on one thing – that 6 months was so harsh it shocks the conscious.<br />
Like the idea that loss of voting rights was a terrible burden.<br />
Get real; are you really going to tell me that a computer genius of AS level couldn’t do 100 times more with his skills then with his single solitary vote ?<br />
The idea that Aaron’s suicide is somehow the fault of the prosecuter – maybe, maybe not; I don’t know how this sort of thing is handled.<br />
But, either Aaron was an adult, able to manage his own affairs, or he wasn&#8217;t; that may be harsh, but that is how our society works &#8211; for better or worse, you are free to choose; he choose, and *he should have known* that crimminal charges might be brought.<br />
And why on earth is 6months so bad ? Lots of people who do civil disobediance wear their prison terms as a badge of honor &#8211; you all know what Thoreau said to Emerson, don&#8217;t you ?</p>
<p>There is just this weird sense of faux naivete about this; you do all these criminal acts, how can you be surprised at a criminal charge ? in the real world ?<br />
As for all this crocodile tear stuff about how the prosecutor coerced him by charging him with crimes that carry horrendous penalties – get real; that is completely, totally SOP in the US today.<br />
If you want to take the AS case (and ignore all the poor people without friends) as an example of prosecutorial over reach, fine – but if AS was 1/20th as smart as they say, he shouldn’t have been so surprised.</p>
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		<title>By: rea</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/comment-page-3/#comment-449613</link>
		<dc:creator>rea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 22:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27212#comment-449613</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you for that comment, John.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for that comment, John.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/comment-page-3/#comment-449519</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 10:26:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27212#comment-449519</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Since this is my thread, I&#039;m responsible for policing it, but please bear in mind that I have a life, job etc.   To make my life easier, please refrain from calling other commenters &quot;trolls&quot; if you merely mean to disagree with them.  While I don&#039;t agree with rea on this, I don&#039;t think it&#039;s trolling to defend Obama on these issues.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since this is my thread, I&#8217;m responsible for policing it, but please bear in mind that I have a life, job etc.   To make my life easier, please refrain from calling other commenters &#8220;trolls&#8221; if you merely mean to disagree with them.  While I don&#8217;t agree with rea on this, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s trolling to defend Obama on these issues.</p>
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		<title>By: etv13</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/comment-page-3/#comment-449515</link>
		<dc:creator>etv13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 09:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27212#comment-449515</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chris Bertram @ 128:  Nobody expects that you can moderate everything, but you do moderate some things, and therefore, your choices can&#039;t be exempt from scrutiny.  It will be a long time before I forget, for example, that dsquared called me a &quot;prissy asshole&quot; and none of the other frontpagers so much as squeaked -- yet non-headliners making perfectly civil but, apparently, substantively objectionable comments get banned.  It&#039;s your blog, and you can do what you want, but that doesn&#039;t mean I have to respect what you do.

Harold @ 131:  You&#039;re indulging in hyperbolic nonsense.  Arguing with you obviously is pointless.  I&#039;m done.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris Bertram @ 128:  Nobody expects that you can moderate everything, but you do moderate some things, and therefore, your choices can&#8217;t be exempt from scrutiny.  It will be a long time before I forget, for example, that dsquared called me a &#8220;prissy asshole&#8221; and none of the other frontpagers so much as squeaked &#8212; yet non-headliners making perfectly civil but, apparently, substantively objectionable comments get banned.  It&#8217;s your blog, and you can do what you want, but that doesn&#8217;t mean I have to respect what you do.</p>
<p>Harold @ 131:  You&#8217;re indulging in hyperbolic nonsense.  Arguing with you obviously is pointless.  I&#8217;m done.</p>
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		<title>By: js.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/comment-page-3/#comment-449495</link>
		<dc:creator>js.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 05:29:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27212#comment-449495</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t often find myself saying this, but I fully agree with Sebastian here---@118: &quot;The logical argument is sound but the political angle is stupid.&quot;  (Well, I don&#039;t know if it&#039;s stupid exactly, but it&#039;s almost certainly counterproductive.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t often find myself saying this, but I fully agree with Sebastian here&#8212;@118: &#8220;The logical argument is sound but the political angle is stupid.&#8221;  (Well, I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s stupid exactly, but it&#8217;s almost certainly counterproductive.)</p>
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		<title>By: roy belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/comment-page-3/#comment-449476</link>
		<dc:creator>roy belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 21:45:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27212#comment-449476</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bradley Manning wasn&#039;t tortured. What happened to him, and is still happening to him, is sadistic revenge. With its consequent educational results. Same with Assange.
 &quot;Mess with us, and we will mess you up bad.&quot; 
Anyone who thinks &quot;the Obama Administration&quot; as contradistinct to the &quot;Bush-Cheney Administration&quot; is primarily responsible for this subhuman catharsis probably thinks Victoria Nuland is representative of some kind of social progress involving the end of the patriarchy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bradley Manning wasn&#8217;t tortured. What happened to him, and is still happening to him, is sadistic revenge. With its consequent educational results. Same with Assange.<br />
 &#8220;Mess with us, and we will mess you up bad.&#8221;<br />
Anyone who thinks &#8220;the Obama Administration&#8221; as contradistinct to the &#8220;Bush-Cheney Administration&#8221; is primarily responsible for this subhuman catharsis probably thinks Victoria Nuland is representative of some kind of social progress involving the end of the patriarchy.</p>
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		<title>By: Harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/comment-page-3/#comment-449463</link>
		<dc:creator>Harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 18:05:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27212#comment-449463</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It never ceases to amaze me how thin skinned are those advocating &quot;dishing it out&quot; .]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It never ceases to amaze me how thin skinned are those advocating &#8220;dishing it out&#8221; .</p>
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		<title>By: Harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/comment-page-3/#comment-449462</link>
		<dc:creator>Harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 17:58:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27212#comment-449462</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I guess it is cruel and unusual to call an argument &quot;morally disgusting&quot; and &quot;outrageous&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess it is cruel and unusual to call an argument &#8220;morally disgusting&#8221; and &#8220;outrageous&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: hix</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/comment-page-3/#comment-449461</link>
		<dc:creator>hix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 17:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27212#comment-449461</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The conditional claim that Mannings threatment was somehow an apropiate response as opposed to torture if he was suicidal is no less outragous, somewhat more actually, than being ok with his threatment under any circumstances. 

Either way, the fish usually stinks from the head. It is rather unlikely that some good president standing above the law can fix a broken legal system by just pardoning away the problem without anybody within the legal system being prosecuted. Indead when presidents can grant pardons, we can observe the opposite behaviour. Last case in point Václav Klaus.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The conditional claim that Mannings threatment was somehow an apropiate response as opposed to torture if he was suicidal is no less outragous, somewhat more actually, than being ok with his threatment under any circumstances. </p>
<p>Either way, the fish usually stinks from the head. It is rather unlikely that some good president standing above the law can fix a broken legal system by just pardoning away the problem without anybody within the legal system being prosecuted. Indead when presidents can grant pardons, we can observe the opposite behaviour. Last case in point Václav Klaus.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/comment-page-3/#comment-449453</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 15:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27212#comment-449453</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I never suggested that anyone on the masthead called rea a troll, Chris.  I was making a comment only about what seemed to me to be a particularly dumb set of comments, free of content and devolving into name-calling.  I assume that&#039;s still okay.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never suggested that anyone on the masthead called rea a troll, Chris.  I was making a comment only about what seemed to me to be a particularly dumb set of comments, free of content and devolving into name-calling.  I assume that&#8217;s still okay.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/01/15/obama-should-pardon-aaron-swartz/comment-page-3/#comment-449446</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 11:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27212#comment-449446</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matt, etv13, rwschnelter: afaics, nobody listed on the CT masthead has called rea a troll. We can&#039;t spend all our time policing spats among commenters.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt, etv13, rwschnelter: afaics, nobody listed on the CT masthead has called rea a troll. We can&#8217;t spend all our time policing spats among commenters.</p>
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