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	<title>Comments on: Dissent Is the Health of the Democratic State</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/02/16/dissent-is-the-health-of-the-democratic-state/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 22 May 2013 15:27:43 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: chris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/02/16/dissent-is-the-health-of-the-democratic-state/comment-page-1/#comment-453602</link>
		<dc:creator>chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2013 01:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27580#comment-453602</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;The increasing political disability of democracy is the outcome of political choice to permit economic concentration of interests and capture of economic rents. The critique of politics by public choice economics wasn’t a diagnosis, it was a blueprint.&lt;/i&gt;

There&#039;s considerable truth in this, I think, but consolidation of the actual ownership isn&#039;t strictly necessary to allow an industry to exert concentrated (and disproportionate) influence on the political process, especially as regards a particular issue salient to the industry.  That&#039;s what PACs and trade associations are for.

For example, every gun owner is a separate person capable of separate opinions and there are (AFAIK) quite a few different gun manufacturers and dealers, but that doesn&#039;t mean the NRA&#039;s political power is fragmented and ineffective.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The increasing political disability of democracy is the outcome of political choice to permit economic concentration of interests and capture of economic rents. The critique of politics by public choice economics wasn’t a diagnosis, it was a blueprint.</i></p>
<p>There&#8217;s considerable truth in this, I think, but consolidation of the actual ownership isn&#8217;t strictly necessary to allow an industry to exert concentrated (and disproportionate) influence on the political process, especially as regards a particular issue salient to the industry.  That&#8217;s what PACs and trade associations are for.</p>
<p>For example, every gun owner is a separate person capable of separate opinions and there are (AFAIK) quite a few different gun manufacturers and dealers, but that doesn&#8217;t mean the NRA&#8217;s political power is fragmented and ineffective.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/02/16/dissent-is-the-health-of-the-democratic-state/comment-page-1/#comment-453566</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27580#comment-453566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Isn&#039;t this what the founding fathers had in mind when they excluded so many in their vision of an educated and participant democracy?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t this what the founding fathers had in mind when they excluded so many in their vision of an educated and participant democracy?</p>
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		<title>By: geo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/02/16/dissent-is-the-health-of-the-democratic-state/comment-page-1/#comment-453433</link>
		<dc:creator>geo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2013 21:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27580#comment-453433</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A very fine essay, Cosima. One quibble: I think E.S. Hirsch makes a pretty strong argument for &quot;compulsory education strongly focused on assimilating all children to a single common culture&quot; as a prerequisite for democracy. See http://www.georgescialabba.net/mtgs/1997/04/up-from-progressivism.html.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very fine essay, Cosima. One quibble: I think E.S. Hirsch makes a pretty strong argument for &#8220;compulsory education strongly focused on assimilating all children to a single common culture&#8221; as a prerequisite for democracy. See <a href="http://www.georgescialabba.net/mtgs/1997/04/up-from-progressivism.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.georgescialabba.net/mtgs/1997/04/up-from-progressivism.html</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: LFC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/02/16/dissent-is-the-health-of-the-democratic-state/comment-page-1/#comment-453419</link>
		<dc:creator>LFC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2013 20:07:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27580#comment-453419</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;On top of this, they spill a lot of ink in disputes with fellow political theorists and/or capital-P Pragmatists, and generally using five words instead of two.&lt;/i&gt;

The second part of this should be emphasized. The book is verbose. Though the authors must shoulder most of the blame for this, some should be placed on the publishers, Princeton University Press and the Russell Sage Foundation, which failed to provide a good copyediting job.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>On top of this, they spill a lot of ink in disputes with fellow political theorists and/or capital-P Pragmatists, and generally using five words instead of two.</i></p>
<p>The second part of this should be emphasized. The book is verbose. Though the authors must shoulder most of the blame for this, some should be placed on the publishers, Princeton University Press and the Russell Sage Foundation, which failed to provide a good copyediting job.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Wilder</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/02/16/dissent-is-the-health-of-the-democratic-state/comment-page-1/#comment-453416</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Wilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27580#comment-453416</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt; how can democratic accountability be relied on to make an institution work better when some substantial fraction of the people have a strong interest in making it stop working at all?&lt;/i&gt;

I think one of the underlying rationalizations for egalitarianism as an element of democracy was a belief that democracy requires the maintenance of conflicts and the resulting competition of rival interests.  The idea that employer and employee had comparable and symmetric rights is basic to a democratic governance of employer-employee relations, and was supported by the idea that unions or professional associations of employees were legitimate and powerful participants in the democratic process.

I think that democracy has often rested on a diversity of business interests, as well, and this was promoted by populist sentiments, back in the day, when populism was the ideology of many small farmers, merchants and artisans.  &quot;Monopoly capitalism&quot; was a phrase that inspired well-justified fear.

It isn&#039;t that long ago, when we had insurance companies, stock brokers, commercial banks, investment banks, savings &amp; loans,  and credit unions, in their hundreds and thousands, each an organized group of firms with diverse forms of ownership and corporate organization, and interests in conflict with the others.   Now, we have five big banks.  Just feel the efficiency!

It isn&#039;t that long ago, that we had a diverse media, of broadcasters, newspapers, book publishers, magazine publishers, with various, often local ownership structures and interests, and rules, for example, that prevented television networks from owning television production companies, or municipal newspapers from owning local television broadcasters.  Now, not so much.

The increasing political disability of democracy is the outcome of political choice to permit economic concentration of interests and capture of economic rents.  The critique of politics by public choice economics wasn&#039;t a diagnosis, it was a blueprint.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> how can democratic accountability be relied on to make an institution work better when some substantial fraction of the people have a strong interest in making it stop working at all?</i></p>
<p>I think one of the underlying rationalizations for egalitarianism as an element of democracy was a belief that democracy requires the maintenance of conflicts and the resulting competition of rival interests.  The idea that employer and employee had comparable and symmetric rights is basic to a democratic governance of employer-employee relations, and was supported by the idea that unions or professional associations of employees were legitimate and powerful participants in the democratic process.</p>
<p>I think that democracy has often rested on a diversity of business interests, as well, and this was promoted by populist sentiments, back in the day, when populism was the ideology of many small farmers, merchants and artisans.  &#8220;Monopoly capitalism&#8221; was a phrase that inspired well-justified fear.</p>
<p>It isn&#8217;t that long ago, when we had insurance companies, stock brokers, commercial banks, investment banks, savings &amp; loans,  and credit unions, in their hundreds and thousands, each an organized group of firms with diverse forms of ownership and corporate organization, and interests in conflict with the others.   Now, we have five big banks.  Just feel the efficiency!</p>
<p>It isn&#8217;t that long ago, that we had a diverse media, of broadcasters, newspapers, book publishers, magazine publishers, with various, often local ownership structures and interests, and rules, for example, that prevented television networks from owning television production companies, or municipal newspapers from owning local television broadcasters.  Now, not so much.</p>
<p>The increasing political disability of democracy is the outcome of political choice to permit economic concentration of interests and capture of economic rents.  The critique of politics by public choice economics wasn&#8217;t a diagnosis, it was a blueprint.</p>
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		<title>By: chris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/02/16/dissent-is-the-health-of-the-democratic-state/comment-page-1/#comment-453355</link>
		<dc:creator>chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2013 13:27:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27580#comment-453355</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;This is where democracy comes in. It has priority, not as a first-order institution for getting everything done, but as a second-order institution for checking on and revising other institutions. No other organizational form is as well-suited to checking whether an institution is actively working; some (e.g., markets and courts) are positively pessimized for monitoring their own performance.&lt;/i&gt;

This sounds a bit like Sagan&#039;s argument in _The Demon-Haunted World_ about the resemblance between democracy and science.  But science, famously, is not a democracy.  The facts are in charge, and thou shalt not defy them.  (Dispute, yes.  But only when armed with conflicting facts.)

Partly this is possible because of the norms of scientific culture, but partly, I think, it&#039;s because scientists usually have less personal stake in the outcome of their research.  That sounds odd, as if scientists don&#039;t care what they&#039;re doing, but compared to, say, an oil company&#039;s stake in national energy policy, I think it&#039;s true.  Scientists maintain their professional standing by being seen to be doing science competently, but they would (usually) rather reach any honest answer, even an unfavorable one, than be caught lying.  The specific answer they find isn&#039;t going to put them out of business and it usually isn&#039;t going to make them rich either.

Demonstrably, this is not true of the oil companies&#039; participation in democratic determination of energy policy.  The types of issues entrusted to democracy have such high-stakes impact on people&#039;s (and organizations&#039;) personal interests that a large number of people would rather reach the result favorable to themselves than participate in a rigorous search for truth.  (Some of them may believe their own wishful thinking, rather than consciously lying.  I&#039;m not sure how much of a defense this is.)  The concept that someone&#039;s incentives influence their conclusion is so unremarkable in democracy it&#039;s completely taken for granted and even accepted.

So how can democratic accountability be relied on to make an institution work better when some substantial fraction of the people have a strong interest in making it stop working at all?  (Wall Street regulation comes to mind, but also the EPA, and even education.)

Traditionally, I think, this circle is supposed to be squared by the belief that what a majority believes to be good for themselves *will* be good for the country, with some special protections for minorities.  But I think this breaks down in the face of the effectiveness of professional liars.  What actually is good for the majority may be good for the country, but a minority that can fool the majority can advance its interests at the expense of everyone else&#039;s.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>This is where democracy comes in. It has priority, not as a first-order institution for getting everything done, but as a second-order institution for checking on and revising other institutions. No other organizational form is as well-suited to checking whether an institution is actively working; some (e.g., markets and courts) are positively pessimized for monitoring their own performance.</i></p>
<p>This sounds a bit like Sagan&#8217;s argument in _The Demon-Haunted World_ about the resemblance between democracy and science.  But science, famously, is not a democracy.  The facts are in charge, and thou shalt not defy them.  (Dispute, yes.  But only when armed with conflicting facts.)</p>
<p>Partly this is possible because of the norms of scientific culture, but partly, I think, it&#8217;s because scientists usually have less personal stake in the outcome of their research.  That sounds odd, as if scientists don&#8217;t care what they&#8217;re doing, but compared to, say, an oil company&#8217;s stake in national energy policy, I think it&#8217;s true.  Scientists maintain their professional standing by being seen to be doing science competently, but they would (usually) rather reach any honest answer, even an unfavorable one, than be caught lying.  The specific answer they find isn&#8217;t going to put them out of business and it usually isn&#8217;t going to make them rich either.</p>
<p>Demonstrably, this is not true of the oil companies&#8217; participation in democratic determination of energy policy.  The types of issues entrusted to democracy have such high-stakes impact on people&#8217;s (and organizations&#8217;) personal interests that a large number of people would rather reach the result favorable to themselves than participate in a rigorous search for truth.  (Some of them may believe their own wishful thinking, rather than consciously lying.  I&#8217;m not sure how much of a defense this is.)  The concept that someone&#8217;s incentives influence their conclusion is so unremarkable in democracy it&#8217;s completely taken for granted and even accepted.</p>
<p>So how can democratic accountability be relied on to make an institution work better when some substantial fraction of the people have a strong interest in making it stop working at all?  (Wall Street regulation comes to mind, but also the EPA, and even education.)</p>
<p>Traditionally, I think, this circle is supposed to be squared by the belief that what a majority believes to be good for themselves *will* be good for the country, with some special protections for minorities.  But I think this breaks down in the face of the effectiveness of professional liars.  What actually is good for the majority may be good for the country, but a minority that can fool the majority can advance its interests at the expense of everyone else&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/02/16/dissent-is-the-health-of-the-democratic-state/comment-page-1/#comment-453331</link>
		<dc:creator>thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2013 03:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27580#comment-453331</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Harald:  While I agree that people get to be authoritative about their own interests and values, they aren&#039;t necessarily authoritative about their preferences over states of the world.  Sometimes you don&#039;t know whether you want something if you don&#039;t know what it&#039;s like. You might even think you know, but be wrong.  I will readily concede that this line of argument is routinely misused, and it may be too dangerous to be useful in politics, but the phenomenon is real.

A trivial example:  Cosma and I have similar lack of taste in genre fiction, so I find the book recommendations on his blog to be very helpful.  Before reading a recommendation I may not know that I want to read the book; afterwards I do know.  This is a change of goals, accomplished by education, but without a change of underlying preferences.

There are less trivial examples in medical decision-making.  In deciding whether cancer chemotherapy is worthwhile, both preferences for states of health and probabilities need to be taken into account, and it&#039;s fundamental to medical ethics that the patient&#039;s preferences are the ones that matter.  But in any situation where the decision is difficult, it matters not just that chemotherapy sucks, but exactly how badly it sucks, and the typical patient doesn&#039;t really know in advance.  That&#039;s the point behind quality-of-life research that tries to assess and describe how much treatment sucks for other patients.  This research may or may not be effective, but I don&#039;t think anyone would suggest that it intrinsically reduces patient autonomy. 

This argument doesn&#039;t say that you get to force education on people who don&#039;t want it, but it does say that if you help people acquire the tools and skills Cosma talks about, they might well change their goals, and these changes could well improve, rather than sacrifice, the accurate representation of their interests and values.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Harald:  While I agree that people get to be authoritative about their own interests and values, they aren&#8217;t necessarily authoritative about their preferences over states of the world.  Sometimes you don&#8217;t know whether you want something if you don&#8217;t know what it&#8217;s like. You might even think you know, but be wrong.  I will readily concede that this line of argument is routinely misused, and it may be too dangerous to be useful in politics, but the phenomenon is real.</p>
<p>A trivial example:  Cosma and I have similar lack of taste in genre fiction, so I find the book recommendations on his blog to be very helpful.  Before reading a recommendation I may not know that I want to read the book; afterwards I do know.  This is a change of goals, accomplished by education, but without a change of underlying preferences.</p>
<p>There are less trivial examples in medical decision-making.  In deciding whether cancer chemotherapy is worthwhile, both preferences for states of health and probabilities need to be taken into account, and it&#8217;s fundamental to medical ethics that the patient&#8217;s preferences are the ones that matter.  But in any situation where the decision is difficult, it matters not just that chemotherapy sucks, but exactly how badly it sucks, and the typical patient doesn&#8217;t really know in advance.  That&#8217;s the point behind quality-of-life research that tries to assess and describe how much treatment sucks for other patients.  This research may or may not be effective, but I don&#8217;t think anyone would suggest that it intrinsically reduces patient autonomy. </p>
<p>This argument doesn&#8217;t say that you get to force education on people who don&#8217;t want it, but it does say that if you help people acquire the tools and skills Cosma talks about, they might well change their goals, and these changes could well improve, rather than sacrifice, the accurate representation of their interests and values.</p>
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		<title>By: breviosity</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/02/16/dissent-is-the-health-of-the-democratic-state/comment-page-1/#comment-453326</link>
		<dc:creator>breviosity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Feb 2013 22:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27580#comment-453326</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is this the first time Crooked Timber has wondered if democracy is both incompatible with multiculturalism and may require high national cognitive ability and even eugenics?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is this the first time Crooked Timber has wondered if democracy is both incompatible with multiculturalism and may require high national cognitive ability and even eugenics?</p>
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		<title>By: William Timberman</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/02/16/dissent-is-the-health-of-the-democratic-state/comment-page-1/#comment-453325</link>
		<dc:creator>William Timberman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Feb 2013 22:30:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27580#comment-453325</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;Now, as for what happens to dissent in the revolutionary or utopian state …&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Surely they&#039;ll wake us when we get there...&lt;i&gt;if&lt;/i&gt; we get there.... ;-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><i>Now, as for what happens to dissent in the revolutionary or utopian state …</i></p></blockquote>
<p>Surely they&#8217;ll wake us when we get there&#8230;<i>if</i> we get there&#8230;. ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: Harald Korneliussen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/02/16/dissent-is-the-health-of-the-democratic-state/comment-page-1/#comment-453317</link>
		<dc:creator>Harald Korneliussen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Feb 2013 21:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27580#comment-453317</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A question about this book: Does it do a good work of distinguishing between politics as a means of establishing goals, and as a means  to establish methods? 

Because it&#039;s a point my friends at Equality by lot make a lot (no pun intended) that to know what you &lt;i&gt;want&lt;/i&gt;, you don&#039;t necessarily have to have a 100% nourished literate brain free of lead poisoning. Ideally, you shouldn&#039;t even have to be a good debater. Any concessions we make to such things, for the sake of efficiency or practicality or whatever,  we&#039;re sacrificing accurate representation of interests and values.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A question about this book: Does it do a good work of distinguishing between politics as a means of establishing goals, and as a means  to establish methods? </p>
<p>Because it&#8217;s a point my friends at Equality by lot make a lot (no pun intended) that to know what you <i>want</i>, you don&#8217;t necessarily have to have a 100% nourished literate brain free of lead poisoning. Ideally, you shouldn&#8217;t even have to be a good debater. Any concessions we make to such things, for the sake of efficiency or practicality or whatever,  we&#8217;re sacrificing accurate representation of interests and values.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2013/02/16/dissent-is-the-health-of-the-democratic-state/comment-page-1/#comment-453316</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Feb 2013 21:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=27580#comment-453316</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dead right. Now, as for what happens to dissent in the revolutionary or utopian state ...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dead right. Now, as for what happens to dissent in the revolutionary or utopian state &#8230;</p>
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