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	<title>Comments for Crooked Timber</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:36:11 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Japanese Paper Theater by Martin Wisse</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/02/09/japanese-paper-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-303843</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Wisse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:36:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14601#comment-303843</guid>
		<description>the Rolling Stones are old, but not &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; old.

Badaboom - tching.

Try the veal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>the Rolling Stones are old, but not <i>that</i> old.</p>

	<p>Badaboom &#8211; tching.</p>

	<p>Try the veal.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Bacevich on the American faith in force by Richard J</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/02/05/bacevich-on-the-american-faith-in-force/comment-page-2/#comment-303842</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14537#comment-303842</guid>
		<description>ajay&gt; Pedantic point - I&#039;d perhaps add &#039;Austria&#039; to the list of countries fought against, depending on whether a) you view it as a major power, and b) whether you count the French as being properly involved...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>ajay> Pedantic point &#8211; I&#8217;d perhaps add &#8216;Austria&#8217; to the list of countries fought against, depending on whether a) you view it as a major power, and b) whether you count the French as being properly involved&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Bacevich on the American faith in force by ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/02/05/bacevich-on-the-american-faith-in-force/comment-page-2/#comment-303841</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:52:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14537#comment-303841</guid>
		<description>88 is spot on. The original claim that the US was &quot;outstandingly pacific&quot; in the 19th century is ridiculous, of course. 
Then we went to the claim that the US was outstandingly more pacific than European powers, which is equally wrong - the US, like the UK and the other European powers, spent most of the 19th century engaged in wars of imperial expansion. 
Now we&#039;re at the claim that the US was different because the European powers were fighting each other as well as engaging in imperial wars, while the US was just doing the imperial thing.

This is wrong too. Two points: first, as noted above (Ellie at 66, for one), the 19th century was actually one of general peace within Europe, certainly compared to the 18th and 20th centuries. And the US actually did go to war with two major powers in the 19th century*: the CSA in 1861 and Spain in 1898.  In the same period, Britain went to war with one: Russia. France went to war with two: Russia and Prussia. So the US did just as well as the European powers, despite its geographical disadvantage. If France wanted to fight another power, all she had to do was cross the Rhine or the Pyrenees - the US had to cross an ocean.

It&#039;s also worth mentioning that the US was founded, in part, because its founding fathers wanted to fight lots of aggressive wars, and the British wouldn&#039;t let them.

(*In the Hobsbawm sense - i.e. 1815-1914).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>88 is spot on. The original claim that the US was &#8220;outstandingly pacific&#8221; in the 19th century is ridiculous, of course.<br />
Then we went to the claim that the US was outstandingly more pacific than European powers, which is equally wrong &#8211; the US, like the UK and the other European powers, spent most of the 19th century engaged in wars of imperial expansion.<br />
Now we&#8217;re at the claim that the US was different because the European powers were fighting each other as well as engaging in imperial wars, while the US was just doing the imperial thing.</p>

	<p>This is wrong too. Two points: first, as noted above (Ellie at 66, for one), the 19th century was actually one of general peace within Europe, certainly compared to the 18th and 20th centuries. And the US actually did go to war with two major powers in the 19th century*: the <span class="caps">CSA</span> in 1861 and Spain in 1898.  In the same period, Britain went to war with one: Russia. France went to war with two: Russia and Prussia. So the US did just as well as the European powers, despite its geographical disadvantage. If France wanted to fight another power, all she had to do was cross the Rhine or the Pyrenees &#8211; the US had to cross an ocean.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s also worth mentioning that the US was founded, in part, because its founding fathers wanted to fight lots of aggressive wars, and the British wouldn&#8217;t let them.</p>

	<p>(*In the Hobsbawm sense &#8211; i.e. 1815-1914).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Japanese Paper Theater by eric</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/02/09/japanese-paper-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-303840</link>
		<dc:creator>eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14601#comment-303840</guid>
		<description>didn&#039;t relics go on tours in medieval Europe?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>didn&#8217;t relics go on tours in medieval Europe?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Japanese Paper Theater by anon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/02/09/japanese-paper-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-303839</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14601#comment-303839</guid>
		<description>Tangentially  related - &quot;Peredvizhniki (Russian: Передви́жники; pronounced as Pear-rad-veezh-niki), often called The Wanderers or The Itinerants in English, were a group of Russian realist artists who in protest at academic restrictions formed an artists&#039; cooperative which evolved into the Society for Traveling Art Exhibitions in 1870.&quot; (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peredvizhniki)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tangentially  related &#8211; &#8220;Peredvizhniki (Russian: Передви́жники; pronounced as Pear-rad-veezh-niki), often called The Wanderers or The Itinerants in English, were a group of Russian realist artists who in protest at academic restrictions formed an artists&#8217; cooperative which evolved into the Society for Traveling Art Exhibitions in 1870.&#8221; (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peredvizhniki" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peredvizhniki</a>)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Bacevich on the American faith in force by Salient</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/02/05/bacevich-on-the-american-faith-in-force/comment-page-2/#comment-303838</link>
		<dc:creator>Salient</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:20:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14537#comment-303838</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I agree that the US dispossession of the Native Americans was broadly equivalent to the imperial jaunts of the European powers, though of course the aspirations of the latter group encompassed almost the entire world. What’s striking, as I’ve said several times now, is that the Europeans did this and warred among themselves, directly and by proxy.&lt;/i&gt;

This is probably stupid of me, but don&#039;t unstable tax policies and the Atlantic Ocean have as much to do with this as pacifism?

I guess it&#039;s always been my implicit understanding that the United States didn&#039;t/couldn&#039;t get extensively involved in direct conflict with other industrializing imperial powers because (a) the U.S. didn&#039;t have the engineering talent to develop a world-class navy yet, which is what &quot;we&quot; would&#039;ve needed in order to successfully engage in Europe, (b) regardless, the cost of engagement would be too high, in part because the US didn&#039;t have a secure military-funding structure in place until something like 1861 or 1864.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I agree that the US dispossession of the Native Americans was broadly equivalent to the imperial jaunts of the European powers, though of course the aspirations of the latter group encompassed almost the entire world. What&#8217;s striking, as I&#8217;ve said several times now, is that the Europeans did this and warred among themselves, directly and by proxy.</i></p>

	<p>This is probably stupid of me, but don&#8217;t unstable tax policies and the Atlantic Ocean have as much to do with this as pacifism?</p>

	<p>I guess it&#8217;s always been my implicit understanding that the United States didn&#8217;t/couldn&#8217;t get extensively involved in direct conflict with other industrializing imperial powers because (a) the U.S. didn&#8217;t have the engineering talent to develop a world-class navy yet, which is what &#8220;we&#8221; would&#8217;ve needed in order to successfully engage in Europe, (b) regardless, the cost of engagement would be too high, in part because the US didn&#8217;t have a secure military-funding structure in place until something like 1861 or 1864.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Japanese Paper Theater by tomslee</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/02/09/japanese-paper-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-303837</link>
		<dc:creator>tomslee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14601#comment-303837</guid>
		<description>Rolf Harris.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Rolf Harris.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Japanese Paper Theater by Gareth Rees</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/02/09/japanese-paper-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-303836</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth Rees</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14601#comment-303836</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a travelling half-size copy of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.themovingwall.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Moving Wall&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There&#8217;s a travelling half-size copy of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, the <a href="http://www.themovingwall.org/" rel="nofollow">Moving Wall</a>.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Japanese Paper Theater by sg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/02/09/japanese-paper-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-303835</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14601#comment-303835</guid>
		<description>I recall many years ago when I went to see the bunraku puppets at the Adelaide Festival, there were some Balinese puppetteers. They did a kind of Balinese version of long, ranty historical poems, but apparently the style was one in which the audience could wander amongst the puppets while the play was going on. I wonder if this is the same sort of thing? I think there was another style of puppetry which involved shadow plays, possibly also Indonesian? So maybe Indonesia did this as well?

By the 30s Japan had a picture-storytelling industry, and its comic industry was already - what - 50 years old? So I imagine that this style of comic strip would have been a viable business entity even after the invention of movies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I recall many years ago when I went to see the bunraku puppets at the Adelaide Festival, there were some Balinese puppetteers. They did a kind of Balinese version of long, ranty historical poems, but apparently the style was one in which the audience could wander amongst the puppets while the play was going on. I wonder if this is the same sort of thing? I think there was another style of puppetry which involved shadow plays, possibly also Indonesian? So maybe Indonesia did this as well?</p>

	<p>By the 30s Japan had a picture-storytelling industry, and its comic industry was already &#8211; what &#8211; 50 years old? So I imagine that this style of comic strip would have been a viable business entity even after the invention of movies.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Japanese Paper Theater by Sam Dodsworth</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/02/09/japanese-paper-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-303833</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Dodsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 09:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14601#comment-303833</guid>
		<description>I just started reading this yesterday, by an odd coincidence. I&#039;m less than a quarter of the way in, but thus far it&#039;s basically a coffee-table book,with lots of nice illustrations and very little context. But it&#039;s still interesting.

I saw a kamishibai performance at the Barbican a year or two ago, and they had a Q&amp;A afterwards. Apparently, the arrival of sound film in the 1930s meant there were no longer jobs for the professional narrators who used to accompany silent films, so kamishibai developed as a way they could still make money from their skills. (There may be more to it than this, of course. A lot of cultures have older picture-storytelling traditions, although I don&#039;t know about Japan specifically.) 

And as a clarification ... The performances were actually sort-of free. Technically the money came from selling sweets before the performance, although I think it was normal not to begin the performance until you&#039;d sold enough sweets and/or let children who had bought sweets stand closer to the show.  And the cards themselves were rented, so there wasn&#039;t a lot of profit-margin for the performer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I just started reading this yesterday, by an odd coincidence. I&#8217;m less than a quarter of the way in, but thus far it&#8217;s basically a coffee-table book,with lots of nice illustrations and very little context. But it&#8217;s still interesting.</p>

	<p>I saw a kamishibai performance at the Barbican a year or two ago, and they had a Q&#038;A afterwards. Apparently, the arrival of sound film in the 1930s meant there were no longer jobs for the professional narrators who used to accompany silent films, so kamishibai developed as a way they could still make money from their skills. (There may be more to it than this, of course. A lot of cultures have older picture-storytelling traditions, although I don&#8217;t know about Japan specifically.)</p>

	<p>And as a clarification &#8230; The performances were actually sort-of free. Technically the money came from selling sweets before the performance, although I think it was normal not to begin the performance until you&#8217;d sold enough sweets and/or let children who had bought sweets stand closer to the show.  And the cards themselves were rented, so there wasn&#8217;t a lot of profit-margin for the performer.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Japanese Paper Theater by John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/02/09/japanese-paper-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-303832</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 08:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14601#comment-303832</guid>
		<description>Paintings of the entire Mississippi that were so well-used, travelling around, that they wore out! that&#039;s more like it! Thanks for that one!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Paintings of the entire Mississippi that were so well-used, travelling around, that they wore out! that&#8217;s more like it! Thanks for that one!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Japanese Paper Theater by John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/02/09/japanese-paper-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-303831</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 08:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14601#comment-303831</guid>
		<description>Movies are too obvious. And a sign of something else on the rise.

I would have said that magic lanterns weren&#039;t traveling theater affairs, but clicking the link, I learn that they were. So that&#039;s the sort of thing I&#039;m looking for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Movies are too obvious. And a sign of something else on the rise.</p>

	<p>I would have said that magic lanterns weren&#8217;t traveling theater affairs, but clicking the link, I learn that they were. So that&#8217;s the sort of thing I&#8217;m looking for.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Bacevich on the American faith in force by novakant</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/02/05/bacevich-on-the-american-faith-in-force/comment-page-2/#comment-303830</link>
		<dc:creator>novakant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 08:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14537#comment-303830</guid>
		<description>Ted, you&#039;re hilarious. Especially when posting while drunk (or whatever) - please stick around ;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ted, you&#8217;re hilarious. Especially when posting while drunk (or whatever) &#8211; please stick around ;).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Japanese Paper Theater by Linca</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/02/09/japanese-paper-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-303829</link>
		<dc:creator>Linca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 08:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14601#comment-303829</guid>
		<description>Sounds like &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_lantern&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;magic lantern to me&lt;/a&gt;...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sounds like <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_lantern" rel="nofollow">magic lantern to me</a>&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Japanese Paper Theater by TheWesson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2010/02/09/japanese-paper-theater/comment-page-1/#comment-303828</link>
		<dc:creator>TheWesson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 08:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=14601#comment-303828</guid>
		<description>Movies?  Or is that too obvious?

How about panorama paintings in 19th century America?

Paintings of &quot;the entire Mississippi&quot; see -
http://www.jstor.org/pss/4633401</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Movies?  Or is that too obvious?</p>

	<p>How about panorama paintings in 19th century America?</p>

	<p>Paintings of &#8220;the entire Mississippi&#8221; see &#8211; <a href="http://www.jstor.org/pss/4633401" rel="nofollow">http://www.jstor.org/pss/4633401</a></p>
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