James, in comments to my Condorcet post, writes
It will only anger the American voter to suggest that foreign nationals should be involved in electing the US President.
Of course (some) foreign nationals are allowed to vote in British general elections (Henry, Kieran and Maria would be if they were resident). I’m guessing that there are other countries that also allow (some) foreign nationals to vote in national elections. [1] Information?
1 EU citizens can vote in countries other than their own in European elections and in the UK I think they can vote in local elections too.
I know that some States allow local jurisdications to give foreigners the vote, though only, of course, in elections in those jurisdictions. Somehwere in Maryland allows all resident aliens to vote in City and school board elections.
If Chris (or Harry or Daniel) were resident in Ireland, they too would be able to vote - the courtesy goes both ways. So too would Montagu, if he weren’t dead. In some constituencies, even that wouldn’t be enough to disqualify him. More generally, as Chris suggests in his footnote, EU citizens have the right to vote in local and European Parliament elections in whatever EU member state they happen to be living in.
Legal residents in Chile were allowd to vote in the plebiscite that ousted Pinochet
Lots of UK citizens are entitled to vote in Australian elections, under a grandfather clause. This was controversial in relation to the referendum we held on becoming a republic.
Takoma Park, maryland allows noncitizens to vote in local elections.
Noncitizens with children in the public schools can vote in local school board elections in Chicago. The same was true in NYC until local school boards were eliminated here a couple of years ago.
Thee’s fairly active movement to allow noncitizens to vote in other elections — there are no Consitutional impediments as far as local elections are concerned. (And maybe not for federal elections either — not sure about this.)
More interestingly, most states allowed noncitizens to vote in at least some elections during the 19th century.
More interesting is countries that allow non citizens to be elected. You dont need to be a british citizen to hold office in the UK
If the brits seriously want to move republican voters in ohio, they should write to Polish voters to have them write to Republican voters in Ohio. Poland is in Rumsfeld approved New Europe. The message should be something along the lines of Bush having a secret plan to make peace with Chirac.
There’s sense in granting the vote to resident non-citizens.
But I’ve wondered how these Guardian people are trying to convince Americans to listen to them… “Please take our interests into consideration and not just yours” is a reasonable kind of plea, but Guardian readers are not often aware that their beliefs aren’t some sort of Platonic or Kantian truth.
I had an interesting conversation with a college from the Czech Republic. His main point was that the choices made by the US President effect the rest of the world. Because of this, everyone should have a say in who becomes the US President. Neither the Bush supporters nor the Kerry supporters thought this was a good idea.
The above should read colleague not college
“His main point was that the choices made by the US President effect the rest of the world. Because of this, everyone should have a say in who becomes the US President”
But if you put the point to him that the decisions of the rest of the world affected the US therefore America should have a say in the affairs of the rest of the World - including Czeh, somehow I’m sure he’d disagree.
I’m more surprised that the Guardian didn’t realise that the response from the average American would be “Don’t interfere with us,” followed by a vote for the other guy, just to annoy the letter-writer.
like james’s colleague, I have thought about the “right” of people elsewhere in the world having some vote in the US elections. like electoral votes, determined by a winner take all vote in each of the countries. giles objection makes sense as well, but one needs to take into account the disproportionality of influence. that is, i believe what the US does affects Czech Republic more than the other way around. How milght this be measured and the votes scaled accordingly. after all in the US, we have somewhat the same problem in that votes in Mississippi can affect my future in Massachusetts and vice versa.
there is also the fact, that views and thoughts in one country have influenced happennings in another, viz., world public opinion, political thought, etc. a fact that oppressive regimes and others recognize through censorship, radio jamming, etc. hence the ignorance or perhaps autism the bush administration would want us to have toward the rest of the world is rather sad. truly a closing of the American mind.
If you would like to vote in US elections, you may move here. We are not the one world government, yet.
The letter writing campaign is one of the stupidest ideas I’ve heard in some time. Rich is right, most Americans are fiercely independent and would resent being told who to vote for. I’ve lived in the US for seven years and I’m still very careful when I tell my American friends my opinions politically, particularly when I think they’re drastically wrong (i.e. they’re going to vote for Bush). If Guardian readers want to have the most effect on the election they should write to their own MPs and get them to withdraw British troops from Iraq.
You’d think the Graun would’ve learned from Howard Dean’s experience of sending inundations of earnest, stupid letters written by earnest, stupid lefties to a conservative part of the country. Then again, with all the bloggers they could’ve chosen to write guest columns for them, they picked Instapundit and Kos, so maybe they’re just terminally thick.
As for voting, in New Zealand, permanent residents have the full franchise, including Parliamentary elections. We’re stupidly generous like that.
perianwyr - if you’d ever had any dealings with the INS, or whatever it’s called these days, you wouldn’t be so cavalier in throwing around “You may move here”, because the US immigration system is configured around the core assumption that unless you have superhuman tenacity and a great deal of luck, you mayn’t.
perianwyr: that’s a very good change on the old saw “if you don’t like it here, leave,” viz., “if you don’t like it here, move here.” but if, as the pundits of globalization tell us, our ties across political borders will intensify, why should not governments to the point that the borders dissovle or change?
If foreigners are willing to pay American taxes, let them vote. No representation without taxation. Of course, they should first have to learn how to sing the Star-Spangled Banner.
Well, it’s a better song than the damned British national anthem.
And speaking as a regular Guardian reader, I thought the letter writing campaign was a rather dubious idea for precisely the reasons that have been given. How would I feel if I got a letter from (stereotype warning, OK?) some bible-bashing right-wing American, or indeed some earnest liberal American, telling me how I should vote in the general election next year? Still, I understand the impulse behind it; I share that frustration at not having any say in US elections that have so much impact beyond the US.
If foreigners are willing to pay American taxes, let them vote. No representation without taxation.
Isn’t it enough that foreigners bear the cost of greenhouse gasses which Americans pump into the atmosphere? Have they got to pay US taxes too?
Incidentally, I pay my taxes to the United Kingdom rather than the USA, but I’m entitled to a vote in US but not UK elections.
One of my former students David Earnest wrote a dissertation on the topic. Many democracies have some possibility for resident aliens to vote but countries differ greatly in the extent to which this is discriminatory (e.g. only nationals of former colonies/EU), whether local jurisdictions have discretion (as in the U.S.) and whether the possibility only exists for local/national elections.
As a resident alien of the US for a number of years, I’d like to add a snarky comment.
1. Resident aliens tend to know more about US politics than citizens (probably because they bring their interest with them when they move here). Case in point - a non-representitive poll taken last week of 6 people who work in my office showed that 0% of US citizens were able to name either the white house chief of staff or the house majority leader (including 2 confirmed Republicans), while 100% of resident aliens were able to name both correctly.
2. If they were allowed to vote, resident aliens would be an informed voting bloc.
3. Informed voting blocs are not welcome in the USA.
“Isn’t it enough that foreigners bear the cost of greenhouse gasses which Americans pump into the atmosphere? Have they got to pay US taxes too?”
Unless the rest of the world has discovered and put into use an entirely new and completely non-polluting industrial powersource, I don’t see that this oh-so-ideologically-correct riposte makes much sense, Michael. The last I looked, Europe and Japan produced quite a fair bit of greenhouse gasses. My own country, Canada, is also a massive producer of pollution as well, Kyoto Treaty support window-dressing to the contrary. Never mind the massive and increasing amounts of pollution produced my developing industrial states like Mexico, Brazil, India, China, etc. etc….
Your response also ignores the fact that a fair bit of the world economy is supported by the US industrial growth. They don’t produce pollution just to spite you, you know.
Nice ideological models may be comforting and bring a false clarity, but they’re woefully inadequate for addressing problems in the messy real world.
Demetrius: I don’t think it unreasonable to regard US emissions in excess of the Kyoto Accord as a tax it is imposing on the rest of the world.
The reaction of anger and insult to the Guardian’s suggestion is interesting when you think of the wider world stage right now. Americans don’t want foreigners to even think of telling them how to vote, while at thes same time these Americans think nothing of invading other countries for no good reason, stealing their resources, and — although knowing nothing of their history, culture and language — feeling very self righteous as they order about, with imperturbable sang-froid and stupidity, the natives. Shockingly enough, instead of acknowledging their racial and cultural inferiority and being forever grateful to the great white American bwanas, the Iraqis actually take pot shots at em. The gall of some people!
The US did not ratify the Kyoto Accord. Attempting to enforce or otherwise imply the application of a treaty not ratified by the US is precisely the type of action that angers US citizens. Concerning the Kyoto Accord specificly. The US objected to 3rd world exceptions, inabilty of the treaty to effect change, and special case treatement for the EU.
the decisions of the rest of the world affected the US therefore America should have a say in the affairs of the rest of the World
Ah, but America does have a say in the affairs of the rest of the world, thanks to the CIA and the U.S. military. You know, between Pinochet, the Shah, Saddam (in), Saddam (out), Duvulier (in), Duvulier (out), Noriega (in), Noriega (out), etc., etc., I’ve just about become convinced that no government rules without the implied consent of the U.S. Department of State.
“…these Americans think nothing of invading other countries for no good reason, stealing their resources,…”
I have to admit I found your whole passage funny, roger.
Having said that, I have no doubt that the Americans will get tired of all this. They’re not an imperial people, when it comes right down to it. For the sake of their domestic peace and quiet, I suspect that in future they’ll be developing their own resources, looking into alternatives to petroleum, and willing to buy from Satan himself to make up the remainder needed.
I do have sympathy for Yanks, though. I LIKE them. That’s why I think that after a bit of economic pain, they’ll come out allright taking this course. Not so the Islamic world…
With the removal of the Americans and their allies from the equation, the Dar al-Islam can commence with its interrupted Dark Ages: pogroms, genocide, collapse…
As I’ve said before, I LIKE Americans. That’s why I’d prefer to see that part of the world go down the toilet without dragging them with it.
From a US citizen’s perspective. The “sin” the US committed in Iraq is not one of getting involved in another countries affairs. The US is asked to do that all the time. Its not even one of sending troops to another country. The US is asked to do that frequently. The “sin” is the failing to act with out the consent of the more vocal members of the European community.
we are a group of americans living in malmö, sweden. for our absentee ballots, we are letting all non-americans decide who we vote for. we have made ballots and have distributed them on different occasions. we have collected around 200 votes.
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