My friend mentioned that she has some trouble with all of those old Bogart films because she finds Bogart so physically repulsive that he detracts from the role. To be sure, H.B. was not Hollywood’s prettiest face, a fact that (unsurpisingly) seems to bother more female viewers of the films than male ones. [Female members of my family voiced a similar complaint about Something’s Got to Give last Christmas.]This is funny to me for two reasons. First, though Bogart’s no beauty, he’s hardly replusive. Second, Bogart is perfectly cast in one of the great movies of all time, The Maltese Falcon, a movie which is marred by the single most egregious miscasting of all time. (Perhaps it is not the worst in absolute terms, but it is a hideous flaw in an otherwise brilliantly cast movie.) I refer, of course, to the wretched, wretched Mary Astor. She was only 35 when the movie was made, but she looks much older. The character she plays, Brigid O’Shaughnessy, is supposed to be a knockout who can wrap any man around her finger. A sexpot. Men’s eyes are supposed to pop way out on stalks and develop pounding hearts for pupils, while steam shoots out of their ears and they make various foghorn and train-whistle noises. It is difficult to overstate the extent to which Mary Astor falis to plausibly elicit this reaction.
I asked my grandmother whether Mary Astor had ever had any sex appeal, say in the 20’s, before she became the slightly haggard woman with an atricious perm and a high, flat midwestern ass who wrecks up all her scenes in what would otherwise be the greatest movie ever. Grandma thought about it, and said, no. Not even back in the day, when she played characters like Mimi Howell, in 1930’s deathless Ladies Love Brutes. (Note that even in this film, at the alleged age of 24, she plays a striking divorceé.) OK, she had a sort of winsome charm in her early silents, and the shellacked hair suits her (go see for yourself). But, honestly, what were they thinking with The Maltese Falcon? Just think how much better it could have been with Lauren Bacall. (OK, OK too young at 17. But still.)
In the repulsive guys miscast as romantic leads category, I think it’s a tie between the hideously aged Clark Gable macking on a grateful(!) Marilyn Monroe in The Misfits, and the raddled (though in principle well-loved) Fred Astaire making time with a grateful(!) Audrey Hepburn in Funny Face. Needless to say, the competition in this category is a miilion times stiffer due to the enduring Hollywood trend of pairing aging actors with nubile starlets. (And Bogie’s in the running with Sabrina.) Thoughts?
Inappropriate pairing, sure.
Unattractively aged, maybe.
“Repulsive guys”? “Hideously aged”? Because they had the poor taste to not die?
Happily’d be half-way ever aftered by the time you got started if you were all mistaking those such gents for your Handsome Prince, notwithstanding the “Handsome”.
Can the friend not enjoy a meal if the waiter is too ugly?
In the African Queen, Bogart’s looks contributed to the role.
Katherine Hepburn was not classically beautiful, but helped make some great movies like the Philadelphia Story
Drew Barrymore despite odd looks manages to provide some good cinematic amusement
Cameron Diaz, a strikingly attractive actress, either cannot choose a good script or cannot act - I hope she is not in any Maltese Falcon or Casablanca remake.
…and another thing.
Brigid O’Shaughnessy is a looker, not a sexpot. She manipulates men by feigning timidity and breathless innocence, so they want to protect her as well as sleep with her. Lauren Bacall is all brass and moxie, nothing like Brigid.
I overstated things on the hideously aged front. I very much hope to be married to an elderly gentleman someday myself. But seriously, watching MM fawn on acute periontitis sufferer Gable is all kinds of horrible.
q, the very fact that you would point to Katharine Hepburn as an example of a not obviously beautiful woman is an indication of how the beauty level required for actresses is orders of magnitude greater than that of male stars.
Let’s not forget W.C. Fields with Shirley Temple…
Always liked Mary Astor, though hard to explain why. Not a Louise Brooks or Claudette Colbert, but “Dodsworth” would perhaps show some of her appeal. Brains, of course. A subtle discernment required, “Red Dust” an example, where the slattern Harlow is the buddy, but Astor the more attractive.
Of course, as the private lives were later revealed of Harlow and Astor (Harlow’s “bad luck” in marrying gays;Mary’s diary entries about George Kaufman) it was true that Astor was the sexual superior.
The sexiest woman of the 30’s? Myrna Loy. “Fu Manchu” and “Thin Man”, God’s greatest gift is a woman who can make me laugh.
I love Myrna Loy. I love the scene in the Thin Man when she realizes William Powell is 4 martinis ahead, and orders 4 herself.
The amazing thing about Gable is how rapidly he aged. Only 59 when he died, Gable already looked mummified. If you take a look at “It Happened One Night” you’ll see a young, skinny Gable, full of boyish charm. Three years later he was already middle-aged and fading fast.
Belle, at the time of The Misfits Marilyn had just been divorced from Arthur Miller, who was hardly a spring chicken (he was about a decade younger than Gable) and was, I think it’s fair to say, never movie-star material when it came to looks. Is it really so implausible that she’d find Gable attractive? In any case, the movie is called “The Misfits,” so we shouldn’t be surprised that in part it’s about people making choices that more sensible people might not make.
As for Katherine Hepburn, it’s not so much that she’s not goodlooking as that she’s so sexless.
It was my understanding that the Platonic Ideal of Horrible Casting had been pinned explicitly as Diane Keaton as Al Pacino’s wife in the Godfather, and that all others were just pale shadows cast on that wall.
what’s wrong with diane keaton?????????
To pig-pile on q: Drew Barrymore is really extraordinarily cute, if you like the women who look like they need to be petted and sheltered (guilty). Actually, on Ken C.’s analysis she’d be great for Brigid. I don’t think I want to continue this thought….
I also note that there has been not a peep about Jack Nicholson in Something’s Gotta Give. JN is so repulsive in that role that
[SPOILER, I guess, though if you can’t see it coming from the beginning of the movie I really can’t help you]
at the end of the movie you think “Why would a smart woman like Diane Keaton leave Keanu Reeves for him?”
Right, I just read Baude’s original post, and
Of course, in both TH&HN and Casablanca, Bogart comes away with the girl.
Right. Just after Godot’s triumphant entrance into Moscow with the Three Sisters.
From Baude’s original post:
Of course, in both TH&HN and Casablanca, Bogart comes away with the girl.
I remember that scene in Casablanca—came right after Godot’s triumphant entrance into Moscow with the Three Sisters, didn’t it?
I recently saw the Adam Sandler/ Drew Barrymore movie Fifty First Dates. Adam Sandler as a sweet, funny loser who manages to win the heart of fair Drew in The Wedding Singer? Fine.
Adam Sandler as serial ladykiller, bedding every sexy woman who comes to Hawaii? I don’t think so.
(While I’m on the subject, what was the deal with Ted Danson as a sex object? Guy looks like Frankenstein with a wig.)
Aaargh. I waited to see if the first one showed up, I swear.
Matt, always having had Paris is widely considered close enough for rock n roll, and in many cases closer.
Matt, always having had Paris is widely considered close enough for rock n roll, and in many cases closer.
Re Mary Astor: I agree that Miss LeBlanc/Wonderly/O’Shaughnessy wasn’t meant to be “a blonde to make a bishop kick a hole in a stained-glass window.” It was more about the throb in her voice when she said things like, “Help me, Mr. Spade.” And Mary Astor completely nailed that.
Does Audrey Hepburn hold some kind of record for “ingenue paired with creepily older leading man”? Humphrey Bogart, Gary Cooper, Fred Astaire, Rex Harrison . . . what were we thinking in the ’50s?
Oh, and no one should be allowed to rank on Mary Astor without having seen The Palm Beach Story. In fact, nobody should be allowed not to have seen The Palm Beach Story.
Claudette Colbert. Lauren Bacall. Myrna Loy. Katherine Hepburn in ‘Bringing Up Baby.’
Intelligent, attractive women whose independent agendas invite men to engage and enjoy a larger world.
What more could you want?
what’s wrong with diane keaton?????????
You’re kidding, right? This is the woman who is perfectly cast breaking up with Woody Allen on a regular basis because of his annoying foibles, and yet she can’t quite convince herself to leave a criminal mastermind who has ordered half the city murdered.
There was no attraction ever demonstrated between Kay Adams and Michael Corleone. She is just the girfriend brought home one day and — Whoops — looks like we’re married now because the script says we should get married.
Re: disliking Bogart: it’s a subjective preference, not a indictment of older actors - Jeremy Irons still has that certain something, but Bogie’s hound dog looks always inspire my distaste. His films are still enjoyable, if not so much as they might be were he easier on the eyes.
Fair enough, des, if he had said “gets the girl” I would probably not be snarking; but coming away with the girl is so precisely what he does not do…
Ted, that’s fair enough, but Sandler’s ladykilling didn’t seem like such a crucial part of 50 First Dates, so I didn’t mind that much. (Insofar as there is any crucial part of 50 First Dates.) Cut the opening montage and the scene in the bar with the blue drinks and you still have basically the same movie, with no suspension of disbelief required—Sandler spends most of his time as the sweet goofy loser who wins the heart of fair Drew.
But you remind me—in case anyone else saw Picture Perfect, were we really supposed to think Kevin Bacon was the sort of guy anyone could succumb to against her better judgment? Ewww. For that matter, was Jay Mohr (I had to look it up) supposed to actually be a decent guy, or we were supposed to have a hideous sinking feeling when Jennifer winds up with him? This is without a doubt the worst movie I have ever cited in a philosophy paper.
Matt—
THANK YOU for saying what had to be said about “Something’s Gotta Give.” While the young Jack Nicholson wasn’t repulsive, I’ve never been able to understand the purported sex appeal of the older, ickier Jack. At all.
Richard—
I think that a large point behind the Michael Corleone/Kay Adams pairing is that his attraction to her wasn’t carnal — it was more a matter of social climbing. Kay was a WASP trophy wife and, perhaps, also an intellectual peer, but she was never meant to be the love interest in a carnal sense.
Matt—
THANK YOU for saying what had to be said about “Something’s Gotta Give.” While the young Jack Nicholson wasn’t repulsive, I’ve never been able to understand the purported sex appeal of the older, ickier Jack. At all.
Richard—
I think that a large point behind the Michael Corleone/Kay Adams pairing is that his attraction to her wasn’t carnal — it was more a matter of social climbing. Kay was a WASP trophy wife and, perhaps, also an intellectual peer, but she was never meant to be the love interest in a carnal sense.
Hey listen, the 30s had weird casting and putative sex goddess or adorable or gawgeous etc women and men that one looks at now and thinks ‘whaaaa??’ It’s as if people then were a different species, if that kind of thing flew.
I mean - Ruby Keeler?
And what about Franchot Tone?
And there were lots like that.
About the best I can say here is that the women I know do not share this distaste for Bogart. Mary Astor does seem a bit, er, flat to me in the Maltese Falcon, but that’s likely because the “helpless flutter” doesn’t really do it for me.
But maybe that’s the point of the character, it’s easy to just dismiss her, but it turns out that you shouldn’t have.
I am firmly of the opinion that sex appeal is far more a matter of attitude than of looks. And my life experience suggests that its difficult to predict what a woman will like in a man.
“About the best I can say here is that the women I know do not share this distaste for Bogart.”
Depends what you mean by distaste. I’ve always liked Bogart, but not in the sense of actually wanting to have sex with him, or even the vague sublimated version of wanting to have sex with him that applies to movie stars. Maybe it’s the same thing with Nicholson. I’ve always liked him but not in the longing to hump sense - and I’m betting I’m not the only one. People like Bogart and Nicholson are attractive but not necessarily sexy. Or sort of figuratively sexy but not literally.
Gable on the other hand has always left me absolutely stone cold.
Aren’t we in chacun-a-son-gout land here?
Thank God, women seem to have very diverse tastes in men, including old ugly men, and even short fat old men, but unfortunately not usually short fat old broke men, except sometimes women with major personal issues (Mrs. Charles Bukowski types).
And likewise, the supposed femme fatale Uma Thurmond looks very ordinary to me. I’d love to meet her father, though.
And so on.
Blythe Danner as the mother in “Brighton Beach Memiors.”
Worst. Casting. Ever.
I agree with the main post. The Maltese Falcon is a marvelous movie except for the egregious Mary Astor performance. She doesn’t have that undercurrent of manipulation that should be there, demonstrates no convincing flirtatiousness, and Sam’s sudden desire to kiss her makes no sense. She looks like she was imported from another movie.
Who else was available that year and was under contract to the studio?
“I love Myrna Loy. I love the scene in the Thin Man when she realizes William Powell is 4 martinis ahead, and orders 4 herself.”
My favorite Myrna Loy scene is in Love Me Tonight, and it’s more or less on topic. Jeanette McDonald asks her “Don’t you ever think about anything but men?”. She answers “Oh yes… schoolboys!”
Worst casting ever? No atrocity mentioned so far can compare with John Wayne as Genghis Khan.
“I mean - Ruby Keeler?”
An incandescent mediocrity. These were the “Goldigger” movies, of course, and Ruby was the “nice” girl supported by the jaded Joan Blondell (sigh) and Aline McMahon.
Was anyone “nicer” than Ruby Keeler?
(Ok, June Alysson, but I am trying to forget her…the fifties were a nightmare.)
And the fact that Ruby completely lacked for beauty or talent is key to understanding the mad genius of Busby Berkeley. She was the off-key, out-of-step, plain proletarian in his precision clock-work robot-beauty dance machines.
Think Chaplin on the assembly line in “Modern Times” and you will understand Ruby Keeler.
M.T. has been one of my favorite movies for over 30 years and I think Mary Astor is great in it and beautiful to boot. I’m flabbergasted by the opinion in this post. (It’s definitely a minority opinion, judging by the user comments on the film in imdb.com).
I know, isn’t Joan Blondell great? All those tough broads in the WB studio - Ginger Rogers (yes, she was one of those Gold-diggers!), and - the one whose name I keep trying to think of. Made movies with Julie ‘John’ Garfield later.
And June Allyson a nightmare - exactly so.
So anyway, Mary Astor was a kind of film noir Ruby Keeler in the Maltese Falcon - that’s what I think. It was a Warner Brothers thing.
I don’t think that Keaton’s performance in the “Godfather” movies is really her fault. As noted, she’s supposed to be a repressed WASP, and she played it that way. Also, the second half of the first movie is very odd. One day, they just happen to be married and have kids.
Mary Astor was more of a signifier back then than she is now. Her husband got hold of her diary and used it in their divorce proceedings. She’d had an affair with George S Kaufman, and she was pretty forthright about their sex life in the diary. It was a big scandal at the time - they were both very famous - so maybe they used her as shorthand for “bad girl”
She was beautiful in a cookie cutter way back when she made silents, and not bad as Katherine Hepburn’s mother in Little Women but it would have taken a pretty spectacular face to overcome Bridget O’Shaughnessy’s haircut, which was incredibly bad.
Oh, you forgot Love in the Afternoon, with the completely decrepit Gary Cooper sweeping Audrey Hepburn, who looked about 12, off her feet, and High Noon, with the completely decrepit Gary Cooper sweeping Grace Kelly, who looked about 18, off her feet.
Sadly my copy is on loan, but I recall from the book that Brigit is emphatically not a looker. She played on men’s sympathy and trust, not their hormones.
Which is not to defend Astor’s performance. But she was by no means a terrible casting choice.
I look forward to a plot and script that can handle the challenging romantic pairing of Sean Connery and Cameron Diaz.
I can’t believe no one here has mentioned Woody Allen. I almost lost my lunch in “Mighty Aphrodite” when the Crypt-Keeper-esque Allen mashed his maquillaged face into Mira Sorvino’s. Ack!
Humphrey Bogart doesn’t have to be conventionally sexy because regardless of your gender he’s the character you want to be. Not have, be. It makes the love interests in his movies kind of secondary as a result. In Casablanca what man or woman bothers identifying with Ingrid Bergman? Doesn’t everyone want to be Bogie or Victor Laszlo?
And you will forgive me if I am not gracious, but there’s no comparison between Casablanca and To Have and Have Not. To Have and Have Not is only a movie, albeit a good one. Casablanca is a political as well as an artistic inspiration and almost every line is quotable — “Shocked, shocked,” and “Round up the usual suspects” are the least of it. Yeah, I know, James Agee hated the film and gave a personal award for dumb expository dialogue to the line, “Oh, Victor, please don’t go to the underground meeting tonight.” Yeah, but nevertheless.
I’d be more bothered by the way the way Hollywood assigns the informed attribute “sexy” to people who are physically unappealing and personality-impaired except that it happens all the time in real life.
Surely we all know someone who seems to get all the guys/girls without having a single redeeming quality. Heck, we’ve all probably been swept up in it from time to time. “Attractiveness” has a social-consensus component that is at least as important as personal preferences or objective features. The perception of being attractive is very nearly the same thing as being attractive. Hollywood simply reflects that basic observation: Remember the Great Bert Convy Mass Delusion of the 1970s?
After a time, the social consensus breaks down or drifts elsewhere, and we can finally ask, “What’s up with Mary Astor?”
(To Have and to Have Not has Hoagy Carmichael singing “Hong Kong Blues.” Reason enough for me to treasure it. “As Time Goes By” OTOH, is a mediocre song that derives its appeal solely through the context of appearing in Casablanca.)
I turn 70 this month and find more women in their 20’s attracted to me these days than ever were in my salad days. Of course, it’s not the fault of Bogart, Gable, Astaire or Nicholson that they’re not me.
At this point i feel compelled to add that i find michael douglas the most ridiculous thing that ever appeared in a movie.
And that’s including zardoz.
Thank you for your attention.
“Humphrey Bogart doesn’t have to be conventionally sexy because regardless of your gender he’s the character you want to be. Not have, be.”
Ah, I guess that’s what I meant! Well said.
“In Casablanca what man or woman bothers identifying with Ingrid Bergman? Doesn’t everyone want to be Bogie or Victor Laszlo?”
Well yeah but that’s (isn’t it?) mostly for the usual obvious reasons. The Woman is just a generic Woman; Rick and Victor do stuff. We all want to be the people who do stuff, not the generic Byootifool Woman wot inspires them. But so that’s true of most movies. They have generic Women who don’t do or say much while The Men get on with running the world or killing everyone or taking over Vegas or whatever the hell it is.
So it’s right that Rick and Louis go off together at the end.
My father looked a lot like Humphrey Bogart. How tall was Bogart, anyway? My father was rather short; it looked good on him. Anyway, I thought pretty much everybody considered Bogart to be a handsome guy so now your friend surprises me.
Mary Astor looked just like Beatriz Viterbo. We who were in love with her found Beatriz very beautiful, painfully so; but to our other friends, the attraction or possession or whatever seemed not just un-understandable but aesthetically perverse.
Belle, who would you like to have seen in the role of O’Shaughnessy, given that Bacall was too young? I’d go with Barbara Stanwyck, who was great as a vamp in another outstanding film from 1941, The Lady Eve. (The only drawback would be that perhaps her role as Phyllis in Double Indemnity would be less memorable as a result. But I doubt it.)
I agree that Astor seems painfully wrong in “The Maltese Falcon”, but she got excellent reviews at the time and it gave her career a boost. That and “The Bad Seed“‘s similarly inexplicable Patricia McCormack demonstrate that fashions in feminine deceit change faster than masculine ones.
Having admitted that, I must insist that Astor is an everlovin’ knockout as the nymphomaniac in “The Palm Beach Story”. I don’t know if I’ve ever encountered a line-reading better than her rendition of the single word “… Poppa?” Mere punctuation feels insultingly crass.
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