The Christian Science Monitor has a helpful summary of the main propositions advanced by Richard Perle and David Frum in a new book:
It is reassuring to know that such lunatics could never achieve positions of power and influence.
All Americans must carry a government issued identity card
I am waiting for the day when Bush makes the mistake of actually proposing this. The people who dislike the odiousness of having your local policy bark out, “papers please!” are already not voting for Bush. However, if Bush proposes a required national identity card, suddenly the religious fundamentalists all over the south are going to start screaming, “Number of the Beast!” as they protest against this proposal, and Bush will lose a big segment of his support.
…It’s reassuring to know that such lunatics could never achieve positions of power and influence…:
If I recall correctly, in the case of Richard Perle, you’re about two decades too late.
You obviously don’t have an ear for irony John.
Of the six, only the first looks self-evidently foolish to me. The rest (even the first, if toned down considerably) look like slightly exaggerated statements of perfectly reasonable positions:
1. France fancies itself something of a diplomatic counterweight to the US, and the US should therefore compete a little harder with France for tokens of friendship from fellow allies.
2. Law enforcement should pay special attention to radical Muslim groups, since several of them have been found to be fronts for terrorist organizations.
3. The US government should view “regime change” in Iran and Syria, and the prevention of nuclear exports from North Korea, as important goals.
4. Under the current circumstances, any Palestinian state would immediately turn its territory into an Afghan-style global terrorist headquarters. Its creation should therefore be delayed until these circumstances change.
5. The US should follow the European lead with respect to personal identification.
6. The UN charter is a dead letter, obeyed by not a single nation on earth, and only ever invoked for cynical political advantage. It is therefore time to end this hypocritical charade once and for all.
Dan, despite the subtle differences in wording between your version of #3 and Frum’s, the difference in practice seems to me quite large.
Well, when I saw the word, “overthrow” in proposition 3, I was frankly a bit suspicious. If you think about it, it could mean anything from my rather mild formulation to outright invasion, and we don’t actually know from this summary exactly where on this spectrum Perle and Frum stand. (My guess would be, for example, that they have absolutely no desire to see the US invade Iran anytime soon.)
to some degree, i do think that perle and frum veered off the edge a bit in their advice for the future of america. maybe it helps to sell books. i think a great majority of conservatives (and neocons) would temper their views a bit compared with what these two put out (thats a guess, maybe i’m wrong).
not sure what the problem is with proposal #1. I mean, the French are the French. France is an ally in the same fashion that Saudi Arabia is an ally. politicians like to say it, but can’t seem to tell us exactly what that means. besides our relatively friendly history, there is very little we still share with france. on the economic front, competitor. geopolitical front, competitor. military front, well i guess we still protect them, though the soviet threat is gone. cultural front, have the french ever liked admitted they they like american culture?? i mean, besides jerry lewis. we will probably never get into direct conflict, but i don’t know when the next time when there will be warm mushy feelings between the peoples of france and usa.
“I am waiting for the day when Bush makes the mistake of actually proposing this.”
this proposal for a national id will probably never happen with the bush administration. believe it or not, i think there are a large number of conservatives who hold these strong libertarian principles. ever listen to drudge? savage? the conservatives do. and those two rail against proposals like this.
i think i remember watching alan dershowitz support this proposal on tv, says it doesn’t necessarily have to infringe too far on privacy, and that there always is a balance between privacy (which is not a civil right in itself) and national security.
Saudi Arabia provides massive funding to terrorist organizations actively planning large-scale murderous attacks on the US. France gripes a lot about American hegemony and often votes against the US at the UN. There’s a difference.
So Dan Simon is right. The boogey man propositions listed here are just hyperbolic versions the sensible (if debatable) positions articulated by Frum/Perle. Again, they may be wrong, but they aren’t lunatics, unless “lunatic” means someone whose positions can be misunderstood by the paranoid or willfully obtuse. Don’t belive me? Watch their their presentation to the American Enterprise Insitute here: http://www.aei.org/events/eventID.704,filter.all/event_detail.asp
And no, they don’t call for military action against syria. Sorry to disappoint.
france does alot more than gripe and vote against the us at the un. they actively worked to prevent passage of the second un resolution against american interests, offering incentives to those who went along with them and threats to those that wouldn’t. this is but the latest example.
Glenn:
“cultural front, have the french ever liked admitted they they like american culture??”
Absolutely. There was nothing in the least reluctant about the veneration of Hollywood gangster movies and films noirs by most of the French ‘New Wave,’ and they were not out of step with their national culture (especially youth culture) in this. Did the huge number of French jazz afficionados in the ’50s secretly hate themselves for worshipping Parker, Davis etc? Come on.
Chris:
I heard Perle and Frum interviewed about their book on National Public Radio (supposedly a key player in the ‘liberal media conspiracy’). The supinity of the interviewer was gobsmacking; his whole attitude was one of fawning fascination, treating the authors’ hysterical fantasies as ingenious and plausible. Made me yearn for Humphreys and Paxo!
jimmy, i guess i’ll concede on the cultural front. its nice to hear that they appreciated american jazz in the 50’s.
by the way, i’m sure they do secretly hate themselves, at least for every time they go to mcdonalds to get le big mac. hehe. just a joke.
glenn writes: “france does alot more than gripe and vote against the us at the un. they actively worked to prevent passage of the second un resolution against american interests, offering incentives to those who went along with them and threats to those that wouldn’t. this is but the latest example.”
First, the US was doing the same thing.
Second, they aren’t obligated to give rubber stamp approval for American aggression.
You would have a stronger case if WMD had actually been found in Iraq, and if Iraq had actually been a threat.
Sorry, but being an ally doesn’t mean being a toady.
And I certainly don’t understand how you can possibly think that France is an enemy because they tend to scorn American culture, at least at an official level.
If someone doesn’t like your necktie, does that make him a threat?
Actually, if I’m not mistaken, a good number of black jazz and blues artists moved to France (at least temporarily), because they were treated better there.
i don’t know when the next time when there will be warm mushy feelings between the peoples of france and usa.
Not only is that an idiotic generalisation (unless you’re using ‘people’ as synecdoche for ‘governments’, in which case ‘January 2005’ is a good guess) but it also indicates the amount of media brainwashing that has gone on in recent years.
It’s as intellectually defensible as ‘Blame Canada’.
Hey Glenn: A was walking along North Street today when a guy gave me a weird look. I shouted out, “what’s the matter with you, (are) you French or something!” That showed him.
“First, the US was doing the same thing.
Second, they aren’t obligated to give rubber stamp approval for American aggression.”
i’m not even talking about who’s right and who’s wrong. i’m talking about “are we allies or enemies or somewhere in the middle?” Did you guys even watch the presidential debate where that question was posed to john kerry? “the french are the french” was his reply. what the freak does that mean?
“Sorry, but being an ally doesn’t mean being a toady.”
no it does’t. but that doesn’t mean that france has to stick a fork in america’s eye to make its freakin’ point. it was not some tremendous moral stand by chirac and de villepin in the run-up to war. for them as for us, it was about lotsa things, but money was a big factor.
“Actually, if I’m not mistaken, a good number of black jazz and blues artists moved to France (at least temporarily), because they were treated better there.”
that may have been true in the 50’s but its NOT true today. no ones been running from usa to france except maybe some rich white hollywood stars. france can take ‘em.
ahem, it’ll be difficult to believe that there will be much mushy feelings between the american people and the french people while they think this and later this year, we see a victory by gwb in the presidential election.
im-center right, not sure if you’re kidding or not. i have nothing against the french people as a whole, but i do get disturbed by those people in france, usa and anywhere else in the world who think bush is the #1 source of evil in the world. i do believe that there just so happen to be lots of them in france.
The fact that dan simon considers that “Muslims living in the US must be given special scrutiny by US law enforcement and other Americans” is a “slightly exaggerated” formulation of “law enforcement should pay special attention to radical Muslim groups, since several of them have been found to be fronts for terrorist organizations” is just…just…stunning.
“special scrutiny by other Americans”? What the heck?
Oh, and many African American classical musicians also relocated to, or focused their careers on, France (and to a lesser extent Europe) in the 40s and 50s, because (especially in classical music) they just weren’t getting hired to sing opera or concerts here. The glorious Marian Anderson is one famous example of this.
“The US must overthrow the regimes in Iran and Syria, and impose a blockade on North Korea”
Looks like Perle is looking to make a few more bucks off of US foreign adventures. As he did with the adventure in Iraq. I guess some people have no shame.
“cultural front, have the french ever liked admitted they they like american culture??”
I’d also add that the French enthusiastically embraced American novelists - Dos Passos, Faulkner, etc… heavily influenced a whole generation of French writers - And how about Woody Allen?!! And French critics today anoint Philip Roth as one of the world’s greatest authors.
glenn writes: “france does alot more than gripe and vote against the us at the un. they actively worked to prevent passage of the second un resolution against american interests, offering incentives to those who went along with them and threats to those that wouldn’t. this is but the latest example.”
Oh and how about the U.S. actively putting a stop to the British-French-Israeli action at Suez? Didn’t the U.S. ‘work actively against” the interests of these three nations and even humiliate them publicly and support a resolution against them at the UN - Please grow up and spare us your hypocritical one-sided self-righteousness.
Is there ANY DOUBT that you are all living in the past???
I mean, i talk about french dislike for american culture and you guys bring up jazz musicians in the 50’s. then two of you make comments about black entertainers moving to france in the 40’s and 50’s where they received better treatment. give me a break! No doubt, this was true back then. But America has changed directions a bit since the 50’s, no? just a teensy-weensy drop?
and then david j brings up the suez crisis? once again, that was 50 years ago!! perhaps the usa was trying to prevent war with the soviet union, which was threatening to enter the fray on the side of its client state, egypt? does that matter at all to you, david? i don’t even want to get into it because the bottom line is, IT WAS 50 YEARS AGO!!
“Please grow up and spare us your hypocritical one-sided self-righteousness.”
once again, i am hardly even touching on the subject of who’s wrong and who’s right. i am making a point that france and usa are no longer allies, and may even be enemies. somewhere in the middle, i guess. The French are the French, and you all know what that means (at least kerry thinks you do).
Glen says : -
no ones been running from usa to france except maybe some rich white hollywood stars. france can take ‘em.
And Richard Perle, who has a house there.
glenn writes: “I mean, i talk about french dislike for american culture and you guys bring up jazz musicians in the 50’s. then two of you make comments about black entertainers moving to france in the 40’s and 50’s where they received better treatment. give me a break! No doubt, this was true back then. But America has changed directions a bit since the 50’s, no? just a teensy-weensy drop?”
Well, Glenn, welcome to 2004 (not 1950):
Ever heard of the Festival du Film Americain?
http://www.festival-deauville.com/
And:
This week’s culture section in the French weekly L’express (the equivalent of Time Mag) includes a lengthy article on American gospel:
http://www.lexpress.fr/express/info/culture/
The book section has articles on
- Pourquoi il faut aimer l’Amérique
Why America is Great
by AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE author Dinesh D’Souza
- Le Vengeur (The Avenger)
by AMERICAN author Frederick Forsyth
http://livres.lexpress.fr/
And the Top 4 Book sales in France last week …
http://livres.lexpress.fr/palmares/default.asp?nomrubrique=palmares
Une seconde chance
by AMERICAN AUTHOR Mary Higgins Clark
Un nid de mensonges
by AMERICAN AUTHOR Elizabeth George
Lumière morte
by AMERICAN AUTHOR Michael Connelly
Origine suspecte
by AMERICAN AUTHOR (I think) Patricia MacDonald
And which book received the second most prestigious book prize in France last year? It’s called “A Lover’s Dictionary of America” (or A Dictionary for America Lovers) Check it out at
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/2259194044/402-8065749-0142562
I’m not making this up. You live in an alternate reality. Keep on watching O’Reilly and other self-righteous pundits who panders to your prejudices.
dave, if you checked out my site at all, you would know that i have a strong liberal background, just wish it was less infested by the far-leftists.
on perle, woody allen, etc., there’s nothing wrong with having a house in France, I hear it’s very beautiful. I’m just saying that black entertainers are NO LONGER FLEEING from usa to france. i feel like i must repeat myself over and over with you guys. jeesh.
you guys keep hammering on the cultural issue, one which i already conceded (and don’t really care much about) in this same comments section! wake up and read! but if you want me to say it, i will: The people of France LOVE American culture! They LOVE it LOVE it LOVE it! okay, does that satisfy everyone?
glenn, why do you keep insisting that the french hate american culture? this one claim logically implies that everything else you will ever say about anything is false.
“glenn, why do you keep insisting that the french hate american culture? this one claim logically implies that everything else you will ever say about anything is false.”
not sure if you are kidding baa, but your statement is both false and illogical.
False: I will repeat ANOTHER FREAKIN’ TIME -
“you guys keep hammering on the cultural issue, one which i already conceded (and don’t really care much about) in this same comments section! wake up and read! but if you want me to say it, i will: The people of France LOVE American culture! They LOVE it LOVE it LOVE it! okay, does that satisfy everyone?”
Illogical - if i had made a false statment, a ‘lie’ if you will, it does NOT logically imply that ‘everything else [I] will ever say about anything is false.’ bill clinton lied about monica, this fact DOES NOT imply that ALL future statements made by Clinton will be false. it may imply that you won’t trust my future statements, but that is it. that is for each person to judge on his/her own.
you haven’t impressed me with your wit at all, baa, so i’ll repeat one more time for you.
The people of France LOVE American culture!
i was kidding, glenn. i tried to go so over-the-top that it would be obvious, but i suppose in the insane mini-world of the comment box no hyperbole is hyperbolic enough to exclude the possibility of sincerity. i do agree, however, with the earlier point that americans who don’t like french culture are just like hitler.
À Gauche
Jeremy Alder
Amaravati
Anggarrgoon
Audhumlan Conspiracy
H.E. Baber
Philip Blosser
Paul Broderick
Matt Brown
Diana Buccafurni
Brandon Butler
Keith Burgess-Jackson
Certain Doubts
David Chalmers
Noam Chomsky
The Conservative Philosopher
Desert Landscapes
Denis Dutton
David Efird
Karl Elliott
David Estlund
Experimental Philosophy
Fake Barn County
Kai von Fintel
Russell Arben Fox
Garden of Forking Paths
Roger Gathman
Michael Green
Scott Hagaman
Helen Habermann
David Hildebrand
John Holbo
Christopher Grau
Jonathan Ichikawa
Tom Irish
Michelle Jenkins
Adam Kotsko
Barry Lam
Language Hat
Language Log
Christian Lee
Brian Leiter
Stephen Lenhart
Clayton Littlejohn
Roderick T. Long
Joshua Macy
Mad Grad
Jonathan Martin
Matthew McGrattan
Marc Moffett
Geoffrey Nunberg
Orange Philosophy
Philosophy Carnival
Philosophy, et cetera
Philosophy of Art
Douglas Portmore
Philosophy from the 617 (moribund)
Jeremy Pierce
Punishment Theory
Geoff Pynn
Timothy Quigley (moribund?)
Conor Roddy
Sappho's Breathing
Anders Schoubye
Wolfgang Schwartz
Scribo
Michael Sevel
Tom Stoneham (moribund)
Adam Swenson
Peter Suber
Eddie Thomas
Joe Ulatowski
Bruce Umbaugh
What is the name ...
Matt Weiner
Will Wilkinson
Jessica Wilson
Young Hegelian
Richard Zach
Psychology
Donyell Coleman
Deborah Frisch
Milt Rosenberg
Tom Stafford
Law
Ann Althouse
Stephen Bainbridge
Jack Balkin
Douglass A. Berman
Francesca Bignami
BlunkettWatch
Jack Bogdanski
Paul L. Caron
Conglomerate
Jeff Cooper
Disability Law
Displacement of Concepts
Wayne Eastman
Eric Fink
Victor Fleischer (on hiatus)
Peter Friedman
Michael Froomkin
Bernard Hibbitts
Walter Hutchens
InstaPundit
Andis Kaulins
Lawmeme
Edward Lee
Karl-Friedrich Lenz
Larry Lessig
Mirror of Justice
Eric Muller
Nathan Oman
Opinio Juris
John Palfrey
Ken Parish
Punishment Theory
Larry Ribstein
The Right Coast
D. Gordon Smith
Lawrence Solum
Peter Tillers
Transatlantic Assembly
Lawrence Velvel
David Wagner
Kim Weatherall
Yale Constitution Society
Tun Yin
History
Blogenspiel
Timothy Burke
Rebunk
Naomi Chana
Chapati Mystery
Cliopatria
Juan Cole
Cranky Professor
Greg Daly
James Davila
Sherman Dorn
Michael Drout
Frog in a Well
Frogs and Ravens
Early Modern Notes
Evan Garcia
George Mason History bloggers
Ghost in the Machine
Rebecca Goetz
Invisible Adjunct (inactive)
Jason Kuznicki
Konrad Mitchell Lawson
Danny Loss
Liberty and Power
Danny Loss
Ether MacAllum Stewart
Pam Mack
Heather Mathews
James Meadway
Medieval Studies
H.D. Miller
Caleb McDaniel
Marc Mulholland
Received Ideas
Renaissance Weblog
Nathaniel Robinson
Jacob Remes (moribund?)
Christopher Sheil
Red Ted
Time Travelling Is Easy
Brian Ulrich
Shana Worthen
Computers/media/communication
Lauren Andreacchi (moribund)
Eric Behrens
Joseph Bosco
Danah Boyd
David Brake
Collin Brooke
Maximilian Dornseif (moribund)
Jeff Erickson
Ed Felten
Lance Fortnow
Louise Ferguson
Anne Galloway
Jason Gallo
Josh Greenberg
Alex Halavais
Sariel Har-Peled
Tracy Kennedy
Tim Lambert
Liz Lawley
Michael O'Foghlu
Jose Luis Orihuela (moribund)
Alex Pang
Sebastian Paquet
Fernando Pereira
Pink Bunny of Battle
Ranting Professors
Jay Rosen
Ken Rufo
Douglas Rushkoff
Vika Safrin
Rob Schaap (Blogorrhoea)
Frank Schaap
Robert A. Stewart
Suresh Venkatasubramanian
Ray Trygstad
Jill Walker
Phil Windley
Siva Vaidahyanathan
Anthropology
Kerim Friedman
Alex Golub
Martijn de Koning
Nicholas Packwood
Geography
Stentor Danielson
Benjamin Heumann
Scott Whitlock
Education
Edward Bilodeau
Jenny D.
Richard Kahn
Progressive Teachers
Kelvin Thompson (defunct?)
Mark Byron
Business administration
Michael Watkins (moribund)
Literature, language, culture
Mike Arnzen
Brandon Barr
Michael Berube
The Blogora
Colin Brayton
John Bruce
Miriam Burstein
Chris Cagle
Jean Chu
Hans Coppens
Tyler Curtain
Cultural Revolution
Terry Dean
Joseph Duemer
Flaschenpost
Kathleen Fitzpatrick
Jonathan Goodwin
Rachael Groner
Alison Hale
Household Opera
Dennis Jerz
Jason Jones
Miriam Jones
Matthew Kirschenbaum
Steven Krause
Lilliputian Lilith
Catherine Liu
John Lovas
Gerald Lucas
Making Contact
Barry Mauer
Erin O'Connor
Print Culture
Clancy Ratcliff
Matthias Rip
A.G. Rud
Amardeep Singh
Steve Shaviro
Thanks ... Zombie
Vera Tobin
Chuck Tryon
University Diaries
Classics
Michael Hendry
David Meadows
Religion
AKM Adam
Ryan Overbey
Telford Work (moribund)
Library Science
Norma Bruce
Music
Kyle Gann
ionarts
Tim Rutherford-Johnson
Greg Sandow
Scott Spiegelberg
Biology/Medicine
Pradeep Atluri
Bloviator
Anthony Cox
Susan Ferrari (moribund)
Amy Greenwood
La Di Da
John M. Lynch
Charles Murtaugh (moribund)
Paul Z. Myers
Respectful of Otters
Josh Rosenau
Universal Acid
Amity Wilczek (moribund)
Theodore Wong (moribund)
Physics/Applied Physics
Trish Amuntrud
Sean Carroll
Jacques Distler
Stephen Hsu
Irascible Professor
Andrew Jaffe
Michael Nielsen
Chad Orzel
String Coffee Table
Math/Statistics
Dead Parrots
Andrew Gelman
Christopher Genovese
Moment, Linger on
Jason Rosenhouse
Vlorbik
Peter Woit
Complex Systems
Petter Holme
Luis Rocha
Cosma Shalizi
Bill Tozier
Chemistry
"Keneth Miles"
Engineering
Zack Amjal
Chris Hall
University Administration
Frank Admissions (moribund?)
Architecture/Urban development
City Comforts (urban planning)
Unfolio
Panchromatica
Earth Sciences
Our Take
Who Knows?
Bitch Ph.D.
Just Tenured
Playing School
Professor Goose
This Academic Life
Other sources of information
Arts and Letters Daily
Boston Review
Imprints
Political Theory Daily Review
Science and Technology Daily Review