January 27, 2005

Self-Esteem

Posted by Kieran

Kevin Drum relays the bad news that high self-esteem is basically good for nothing in terms of tangible outcomes. These findings sound much like the literature on optimism and pessimism, which finds that optimists overvalue their abilities and blame others for their mistakes. People with sunny dispositions are a real menace to society. A solid Irish Catholic upbringing (or functional equivalent) is guaranteed to inoculate you against these problems for good. Where I grew up, people thought “self-esteem” was the Italian for “sauna”.1

1 I wish I could claim authorship of this joke. But I’d feel very guilty if I did.

Posted on January 27, 2005 12:28 AM UTC
Comments

From Andrew Solomon’s The Noonday Demon: “In a study done with a video game, depressed people who played for half an hour knew just how many little monsters they had killed; the undepressed people guessed four to six times more than they had actually hit.”

Posted by Ayjay · January 27, 2005 12:16 AM

You are just saying this to make me feel better, although it doesn’t really matter anyway.

Posted by bob mcmanus · January 27, 2005 12:57 AM

There is far too much self-esteem around. People need to blow some off, instead of building it. My head would explode if I had any more of the stuff.

“Yeah I know it’s sad that flute’s head exploded, but what about me? How do I feel about it?”

Posted by flute · January 27, 2005 01:22 AM

Happiness is bad for your health? Why not?

Posted by James C. Hess · January 27, 2005 01:37 AM

Happiness is bad for your health?

No, it’s good for you. It just may be bad for other people.

Posted by Kieran Healy · January 27, 2005 01:48 AM

There’s a story about a math test administered internationally, in which American kids had the lowest scores, Japanese the highest, and their own estimated scores were the reverse, top and bottom. I heard it about 10 years ago.

Posted by John Isbell · January 27, 2005 03:50 AM

One of the most popular bumper stickers one used to see proclaimed “The Power of Pride” over a rippling American flag, which always made me wonder when pride ceased to be one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

Okay, okay, the sin once abjured was more like arrogance than self-esteem, but it’s not that easy to draw a line.

Posted by bad Jim · January 27, 2005 08:38 AM

Ask three canine trainers, “What’s the best dog training method?” and it’s quite possible you’ll get three different answers. You might also hear a bevy of buzzwords such as “purely positive” or “clicker training” sprinkled with terms borrowed from psychologists and behaviorists such as “operant conditioning.”
Taken from http://www.theithacajournal.com/news/stories/20050126/lifestyle/1914772.html
Find out more about dog training information from http://www.dogtraining.mypetdogs.com

Posted by dog training information · January 27, 2005 09:45 AM
‘O keep the Dog far hence, that’s friend to men,
‘Or with his nails he’ll dig it up again!
‘You! hypocrite lecteur! - mon semblable, - mon frere!’
Posted by bad Jim · January 27, 2005 11:15 AM

Mercury Rev called a whole album
Yerself is Steam
:

it’s not as easy as it may seem, remember that yourself is steam [Actually from the song “Chasing a bee”]

It was a long time before the penny dropped, although I can’t say that sharing that information makes me feel any better.

Posted by des von bladet · January 27, 2005 11:48 AM

ayjay: does that imply that depression is just the ability to see things as they really are, rather than through the fuzzy optimistic haze most people manage?

Posted by Nick Kiddle · January 27, 2005 01:01 PM

Pascal would say yes. I’m not Pascal.

Posted by John Isbell · January 27, 2005 01:44 PM

ayjay: does that imply that depression is just the ability to see things as they really are, rather than through the fuzzy optimistic haze most people manage?

Yeah, that’s the idea. According to this line of research — which may or may not be in conflict with “self-esteem” problem — seeing things through a “fuzzy optimistic haze” is useful and even evolutionarily adaptive: “positive illusions” keep people going through difficult and stressful times. The depressive who can’t manage those illusions sees things as they are and is therefore, um . . . depressed.

I don’t know how good all those studies are, but Solomon’s The Noonday Demon is a great book.

Posted by Ayjay · January 27, 2005 01:48 PM

Judith Martin (“Miss Manners”) once remarked that

The problem with the guilt-free society is that we have all this unallocated blame lying around.

Posted by Joshua W. Burton · January 27, 2005 02:49 PM

“Optimism: The belief that everything will turn out for the best - irrational bordering on insanity” - K9 (from Dr. Who)

Posted by Njorl · January 27, 2005 03:02 PM

I think this dismissal of self-esteem is just as bad as the hype for it.

Originally, self-esteem enhancement projects were for people with crippling emotional problems - severe physical and sexual abuse victims. After consistant victimization, these people would come to believe that they deserved this kind of treatment, and would engage in behaviour that would bring it about.

I imagine now that we’ll have people relying on poor performance in video games by egomaniacs to dismiss the victimized with “Just get over it.”

Posted by Njorl · January 27, 2005 03:18 PM

Not sure what you’re referring to here Njorl.

All the studies, programs, and work being referred to here has to do with regular old public school children as a whole, not specific subgroups.

Posted by marty · January 27, 2005 03:48 PM

‘I imagine now that we’ll have people relying on poor performance in video games by egomaniacs to dismiss the victimized with “Just get over it.”’

Eh, that’s what crossed my mind too after reading the article… It seems too dismissive of issues associated with really, really low self-esteem. A higher degree of self-esteem prevents people from being depressed, having an eating disorder, self-harming, abusing drugs or alchool and wanting to kill themselves, and that’s supposedly not such a big advantage? As someone who’s been spending a significant portion of her income on therapy for the past ten years, I humbly beg to differ. Self-discipline my ass.

Maybe what is meant by “high-self esteem” here is more like arrogance or over-inflated sense of self. That’s what’s the opposite of humility in the good sense. You don’t have to think you’re worthless to not be an arrogant prick. What about a reasonable in-between? There’s not just too high or too low.

Posted by x · January 27, 2005 05:03 PM

Hmm, marty, the article does mention depressed people, “young women with eating disorders”, victims of bullying, etc..
Those are things that do occur among all age and social groups. It’s not like “regular” school children are a world apart from the rest of humanity.

Posted by x · January 27, 2005 05:13 PM

Comment #1:

The original vision for self-esteem training and its importance sounded wonderful, necessary, utopian. Every implementation as far as I can tell has been embarrassing and asinine. How to resolve the evident contradition?

Perhaps “self-esteem” is a threshold quality. Above a certain amount, one can be a strong element of the social fabric. Below a certain amount, one is likely to accept/attract/encourage all sorts of negative behavior patterns. But any self-esteem above the threshold is surplus, and in large amounts may lead to other problems, like sucking at video games.

The various self-esteem programs that have been put in place seem then to have made an error by taking the general approach of “hey there person you are fabulous!” which was a bit too vague; they should instead have been zeroing in on something like: “everybody knows they deserve to not have the shit beaten out of them daily by a family member, right? OK, moving on …”

Comment #2:

“Paranoia is having all the facts.” — William S Burroughs

Posted by pierre · January 27, 2005 05:43 PM

I’m with X and Njorl for sure: it’s like when everyone’s being all “Oh obesity causes health problems why do you all eat so much all the time” and I’m like, “Way to help the starving childrens in Africa, dude!”.

As someone who?s been spending a significant portion of his income on food for the past ten years, which is to say, I humbly beg to differ.

Posted by des von bladet · January 27, 2005 05:52 PM

As regards the debate over whether high(er) self-esteem is a good or bad thing..isn’t there room for both? The contrast between claims for benefits from better self-esteem first being made for classes of people who had suffered some form of abuse, and recent studies showing that those at the higher end of the self-esteem scale are delusional, seems to make perfect sense. If there is evidence that those who think particularly well of themselve add to the misery of those around them, while those who think particularly badly of themselve keep their misery at home, is that so hard to make sense of?

Not that my personal experience means diddly (‘cause my level of self-esteem may be improperly calibrated), but yes indeedy, I find that big-time optimists and those with very strong self-images are quite willing to shed blame, take advantage…the whole insufferable routine.

Posted by kharris · January 27, 2005 06:19 PM

Er, des, not sure I get your joke but I sure don’t get the parallel. Perhaps I came off sounding like a jerk, but what I meant was simply what Pierre said above about the kind of self-esteem that’s useful. I wouldn’t put self-control or self-discipline above that, in terms of psychological approaches. That’s all.

Didn’t mean anything particular by that “portion of income” comment, only that I wish it was true that a higher self-esteem is not such a significant advantage. I don’t see psychotherapy as an artificial route to self-esteem, I’m not talking of the “you’re fabulous” kind of crap. I’m talking of the kind that can help people in dealing with some bad stuff. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t wish they didn’t have to go through any of that, therapy and what led to it, in the first place, and not just for financial reasons, obviously.

Posted by x · January 27, 2005 10:13 PM

Funny — the only self-esteen programs I can think of that seem to do real good are the very nderfunded Outward Bound type, where troubled kids/teens have to meet real challenges, often by working together. That’s so different from the kinds of things we see for mainstream kids, where the challenges are often removed. When my kid stepbrother was in school, about 20 years ago, his report cards had three columns: Below-, at- and above grade level. He was consistently getting the full range of Bs and Cs below grade level. My parents were happy, he was happy, and he dropped out of high school.

Posted by Another Damned Medievalist · January 28, 2005 08:28 PM

>but yes indeedy, I find that big-time optimists and those with very strong self-images are quite willing to shed blame,

Yeah, my co-worker is amazingly exactly like that!! He clearly has an oversupply of self-esteem. For example, he currently thinks it’s all my fault that the project is behind!!

But I know damn well that he’s the problem in its entirety, and I’m going to make sure our boss is aware of it so I don’t lose my bonus…

I’m so glad I’m a realist.

Posted by a different chris · January 28, 2005 11:55 PM
Followups

→ Self-Esteem.
Excerpt: Read more at The Dead Hand
→ SELF-ESTEEM.
Excerpt: Several weeks ago, I made fun of an academic who took three years of research to learn that fat kids get picked on. This, to me, should be obvious to everyone on earth. I thought the study was a big...Read more at Begging To Differ
→ Yerself is Steam.
Excerpt: (via Crooked Timber) Psychologist Roy Baumeister has a summary of the literature on self esteem. It turns out that it ...Read more at Smart Blog Title
→ Catching my eye: morning A through Z.
Excerpt: Here's what's caught my eye so far this morning: When the Geneva Food Crimes Tribunal meets, Beautiful Atrocities's No-Bake Meatloaf is certain to be indicted. A dialogue with Socrates (although not precisely a Socratic dialogue) about Bush's inaugurat...Read more at The Glittering Eye
→ Catching my eye: morning A through Z.
Excerpt: Here's what's caught my eye so far this morning: When the Geneva Food Crimes Tribunal meets, Beautiful Atrocities's No-Bake Meatloaf is certain to be indicted. A dialogue with Socrates (although not precisely a Socratic dialogue) about Bush's inaugurat...Read more at The Glittering Eye
→ Loose Links (Thursday).
Excerpt: ¶ Today is Mozart's Birthday. He was born 249 years ago at Salzburg, a principality within the Holy Roman Empire. To celebrate, what you must do is to listen to the finale of Act I of Così fan tutte at...Read more at Daily Blague
→ Loose Links (Thursday).
Excerpt: ¶ Today is Mozart's Birthday. He was born 249 years ago at Salzburg, a principality within the Holy Roman Empire. To celebrate, what you must do is to listen to the finale of Act I of Così fan tutte...Read more at Daily Blague
→ Catching my eye: morning A through Z (UPDATED).
Excerpt: Here's what's caught my eye so far this morning: When the Geneva Food Crimes Tribunal meets, Beautiful Atrocities's No-Bake Meatloaf is certain to be indicted. A dialogue with Socrates (although not precisely a Socratic dialogue) about Bush's inaugurat...Read more at The Glittering Eye
→ Catching my eye: morning A through Z (UPDATED).
Excerpt: Here's what's caught my eye so far this morning: When the Geneva Food Crimes Tribunal meets, Beautiful Atrocities's No-Bake Meatloaf is certain to be indicted. A dialogue with Socrates (although not precisely a Socratic dialogue) about Bush's inaugurat...Read more at The Glittering Eye
→ Catching my eye: morning A through Z (UPDATED).
Excerpt: Here's what's caught my eye so far this morning: When the Geneva Food Crimes Tribunal meets, Beautiful Atrocities's No-Bake Meatloaf is certain to be indicted. A dialogue with Socrates (although not precisely a Socratic dialogue) about Bush's inaugurat...Read more at The Glittering Eye

This discussion has been closed. Thanks to everyone who contributed.