September 22, 2004

Grilled Lobster on Sugarcane

Posted by Belle Waring

Is it just me, or does this Samizdata post sound oddly as if it were written by the Medium Lobster?

I hardly know where to begin on this one (from Fox News).

While Bush has been campaigning as the best candidate to deter terrorists and protect the nation, Kerry portrayed him as out of touch with the situation in Iraq.

“With all due respect to the president, has he turned on the evening news lately? Does he read the newspapers?” Kerry said. “Does he really know what’s happening? Is he talking about the same war that the rest of us are talking about?”

This man thinks the Commander-in-chief should formulate war strategies according to what it says on CNN, and he is standing for president of the United States?

With all due respect to the Democratic candidate, has he never heard of military intelligence? Does he even know what the blogosphere is? Is he talking about the same universe that the rest of us are talking about?

Damn right, we are talking about different wars. This is the real one. And it’s not available in any newspapers.

I recommend very strongly that you follow the link and learn that John Wayne movies about Vietnam are an awesome place to learn about press bias. And, if you read the comments thread, you learn that the liberal media travelled back in time from the 70’s and caused the US to lose the Vietnam war by raising geo-political concerns about open war with China. Also, can we think of a new name for libertarians who think it’s a good idea to invade other countries and overthrow their governments, like maybe “shmibertarians”? Thanks.

Posted on September 22, 2004 01:14 PM UTC
Comments

You can see from the potential-major’s site that he has a substantial archive of posts going back some years, and a reasonable reputation among right-wing bloggers. That doesn’t mean he isn’t a fake, but if he is then he’s spent the last two years building his credentials for such hoaxes.

Incidentally, Belle - did you mean to link to the Samizdata post somewhere? Not that people are missing out on much…

Posted by john b · September 22, 2004 01:39 PM

I’m one of those people who is sort of sitting on the fence in terms of how much value I think the blog cultureas an alternative to mainstream media. Everyone knows the arguments for both positions. And in this posts, one of my really great sources of skepticism emerges: how do we know that the postings from the mainstream media in Iraq aren’t simply made up?

steve

Posted by Steve · September 22, 2004 01:56 PM

Glad someone is exposing the nonsense that Samizdata pump out. Bunch of spoilt Pimm’s-drinking, Nozick-loving toffs. Daddy’s off nation-building, ra ra ra!

Posted by joe · September 22, 2004 02:05 PM

Remember when Ford Prefect said of Zaphod Beeblebrox that “At least one of his heads is now saner than an emu on acid.”?

I’ve never heard anyone say that about Samizdata.

Posted by Des von Bladet · September 22, 2004 02:06 PM

(my post was originally made after Steve’s, should anyone be confused by the relevance of my comment)

Posted by john b · September 22, 2004 02:20 PM

“Does he even know what the blogosphere is?”

Wow, I can’t believe that this man is standing for president.

Posted by david · September 22, 2004 02:22 PM

“The CIA laid out a — several scenarios that said, life could be lousy, like could be okay, life could be better. And they were just guessing as to what the conditions might be like.”— Bush, yesterday.

Posted by norbizness · September 22, 2004 02:28 PM

Yeah, being a libertarian and being in favour of overthrowing Saddam Hussein — talk about a blatant contradiction!

Posted by Jimmy Doyle · September 22, 2004 02:32 PM

Yeah, being a libertarian and being in favour of overthrowing Saddam Hussein — talk about a blatant contradiction!

Posted by Jimmy Doyle · September 22, 2004 02:33 PM

Yeah, being a libertarian and being in favour of overthrowing Saddam Hussein — talk about a blatant contradiction!

Posted by Jimmy Doyle · September 22, 2004 02:34 PM

It’s not as bad as the media are making it sound - Vote Bush!

They beheaded another hostage - see what animals they all are? no reasoning with these people! Vote Bush!

It’s all actually going fine, schools, electricity, elections soon, see, all this is because of the President’s vision - Vote Bush!

It is scarily descending into civil war chaos - that’s why our war is even more justified and our military presence more needed than ever - Vote Bush!

It’s simple, why complicate it with facts? Why bother with the news at all when you can get feelgood Bush-endorsing sermons from an anonymous person on the internet?

The only thing that could probably make this more fantastic is is, if the Republicans had actually selected as campaign anthem that horrible pop track that Labour had when they first won…

… Things can only get better
can only get better…

Posted by mona · September 22, 2004 02:35 PM

I have to add, I love how they make Kerry’s “does the President read the same news as the rest of us” sound as if Kerry was literally advocating the President be briefed only and exclusively and directly by CNN, rather than by intelligence.

That’s exactly what Kerry meant! Yes, he is that crazy!

Same with the thing about missing Saddam so bad and wanting him back!

Posted by mona · September 22, 2004 02:44 PM

Does he even know what the blogosphere is?

Well, Carter was ignorant of CB radio and look what happened to him!

Posted by Paul · September 22, 2004 03:04 PM

Actually, I rather enjoyed the comments to that Major’s post. Added one myself. Not as many wingnuts as I thought. Quite civil.

Posted by Extinct Tory · September 22, 2004 03:26 PM

Libertarian who think it’s OK to invade other countries == Republicans

Posted by Hank · September 22, 2004 03:35 PM

followed both links and the results were similar .. a creepy chill down my spine.

Posted by Adi · September 22, 2004 04:36 PM

The purehearts who mock US soldiers and George W. Bush’s committment to fight Islamism have the opportunity to do the right thing:

Publish your name and address and the address of the schools your children attend on Islamic websites. You could include a message that libertarians don’t invade other countries. Your nobility would save the rest of us from some trouble.

Posted by Warthog · September 22, 2004 05:03 PM

Warthog, put down the crack pipe.

Posted by Barry · September 22, 2004 05:17 PM

For Libertarians for whom that (non)system of government is a uniquely U.S. way of life and are of the ‘people get the government they deserve’ crowd, Wilsonian projects are going to be unpopular. But then again, they may have a hard time justifying the Civil War too. I suppose you could call them localist, contextualist, or gasp, culturally relativist Libertarians. They are probably hostile to the UN and/or international laws/treaties/alliances.

For other Libertarians, negative rights are universal, inalienable, etc etc. They are probably accepting of the idea of international law that does not threaten to grow into international goverment. But they be hostile to the idea that national sovereignty and cultural norms should be a barrier to preventing human rights abuses — the U.S. has as much right and duty to stamp out horrific systemic human rights abuses abroad as it did slavery. I’d call them universalist Libertarians.

As a matter of empirics, not theory, I suspect the first group are probably harder core, ideologically pure near-anarchists, believing that we shouldn’t have any public funding for schooling at all, etc, while the second group are a bit watered down, being more akin to classical liberals. (E.g. small-goverment Republicans)

Posted by Dubious · September 22, 2004 05:27 PM

They had to choose between anti-“statism” and the coolness of guns, tanks and napalm…
No wonder they’re going bonkers!

Posted by Matthew2 · September 22, 2004 05:28 PM

Over at antiwardotcom they use the word liberventionist. Can’t say I really like it, but if there’s a market for it…

Posted by Motoko Kusanagi · September 22, 2004 05:49 PM

“©an we think of a new name for libertarians who think it’s a good idea to invade other countries and overthrow their governments, like maybe “shmibertarians”?”

Can we think of a new name for a group of academics who believe it’s ethical to support a fascist dictator against efforts by a liberal democracy to free 25 million Iraqis from genocide, enslavement and mass torture?

Posted by Mark · September 22, 2004 06:25 PM

Umm, Mark, I think it is a bit of a leap to make b/w opposing the Iraq war and particularly the handling of it to “supporting” a fascist dictator.

Scale it back a bit and make a decent point.

Posted by Scott · September 22, 2004 06:32 PM

Yes: “imaginary.”

Posted by lemuel pitkin · September 22, 2004 06:44 PM

Yes: “imaginary.”

Posted by lemuel pitkin · September 22, 2004 06:46 PM

Lebensraum-tarians?

Posted by abb1 · September 22, 2004 06:47 PM

My post, which admittedly wasn’t all that funny the first time, was supposed to be in response to Mark, not our gracious host. And yes, despite the explicit warning at the bottom of the page I hit the post button twice. But I got some kind of error message the first time!

Posted by lemuel pitkin · September 22, 2004 06:50 PM

Libertarians who support invading and overthowing the governments of other countries? - “gun nuts.”

Posted by fyreflye · September 22, 2004 07:28 PM

Abb1-

Laughed out loud. Really. Thanks.

Oh, and I know I shouldn’t feed the trolls, but:

warthog, wouldn’t it be more appropriate for supporters of Bush’s war to post their personal info to Islamist websites? Or are you only willing to put our soldiers in harm’s way for no gain?

YAWC: Yet another warmongering coward.

Posted by JRoth · September 22, 2004 08:05 PM

Did you all see that Leonard Peikoff, Ayn Rand’s disciple, has said he is voting for Kerry.

Check it out on my blog:

saltman {dot} blogspot {dot} com {slash} #109580662816976284

Posted by Julie · September 22, 2004 08:36 PM

“bottom of the page I hit the post button twice. But I got some kind of error message the first time!”

For what it is worth, I have developed the habit of writing my comment,previewing, editing, copying onto my clipboard, closing the blog window, going to a different blog, and then coming back to check if the comment had taken.

Many sites lately, including Kevin Drum’s, are giving false error messages.

Posted by bob mcmanus · September 22, 2004 08:40 PM

Scott,

Post-war consequences for the majority of normal Iraqi citizens should ruling Baathist Iraqi fascists’ position been given effect: continued genocide, enslavement and mass torture.

Post-war consequences for the majority of normal Iraqi citizens should war opponents’ position been given effect: continued genocide, enslavement and mass torture.

If you want to make fine disctinctions about not really psychologically supporting a fascist dictator, go ahead. The practical difference for Iraqis was next to nothing. This point has been made by members of the Iraqi communist party, among others, to western leftists for some time. At least have the courage to face your critics head on.

Posted by Mark · September 22, 2004 09:56 PM

Mark — I see you are one of the “world’s policemen” crowd. When do we gear up for Sudan, Iran, North Korea, Chechnya, North Ossetia, and Pakistan? After all, there’s lots of suffering out there and we haven’t even started yet! Are you wearing your fatigues, because the mud and blood will be even deeper farther down that road…

Posted by JPed · September 22, 2004 10:08 PM

Mark,
vast majority of them prefer Baathist fascists to you. Enough said.

Posted by abb1 · September 22, 2004 10:13 PM

Mark, you forget about another option: US foreign policy not run by baboons, and Saddam gotten rid of for a cost of less than 200 billion dollars and the deaths of a 1000 Americans.

Posted by Walt Pohl · September 22, 2004 10:41 PM

My point is that by not confronting the Islamists where they are (Iraq, anyone) you are forcing somebody else (New York, Bali, Beslan?) to assume the risk.

The alternative is to have and support a military where each individual member willingly assumes that risk for you in some place other than your back yard.

If you want to mock the military then be noble, do the right thing and take the risk yourself.

Posted by Warthog · September 22, 2004 10:44 PM

Mark, you forget about another option: US foreign policy not run by baboons, and Saddam gotten rid of for a cost of less than 200 billion dollars and the deaths of a 1000 Americans.

Posted by Walt Pohl · September 22, 2004 10:45 PM

Umm, didn’t realize I was ducking MY critics, Mark. I think Jped makes the obvious point (to the list one could add China, Russia, Burma, Saudi Arabia, among others).

I actually thought there were humanitarian reasons to go into Iraq. Those weren’t the chief ones presented to us, however. Nor am I certain that the Iraqis are better off right now; perhaps if we cease screwing up the nation-building they will be within a couple years.

Posted by Scott · September 22, 2004 10:46 PM
Key findings: Nationwide survey of 3,500 Iraqis

3. Taking everything into account, do you think the coalition invasion of Iraq has done more harm than good or more good than harm?

Total Baghdad Shi’ite areas Sunni areas Kurdish areas
More harm 46 59 47 56 2
More good 33 18 28 20 97
The same 16 21 19 16 1
And this was 6 months ago.

Posted by abb1 · September 22, 2004 10:47 PM

abb1

There hasn’t been a single American casualty in 11 of the 18 provinces of Iraq. Neither has the caualty distribution changed within the 7 remaining provinces. The problem area is the Sunni Triangle. Part of the reason is that the Turks went wobbly and the 4th ID didn’t have a Northern route.

No matter. It will take about two weeks of hard combat to eliminate the opposition within the Triangle. Exactly when that happens I don’t know but it almost certainly will happen before the middle of December. In case you haven’t noticed the US Marines are very accomodating in granting the jihadis their desire for martyrdom.

Posted by Warthog · September 22, 2004 10:56 PM

Scott — Not sure I agree with China being on the list, but maybe towards the bottom. One thing I don’t agree with you on (and this is only a clause in your post, probably doesn’t reflect the fullness of your position) is that we should “cease screwing up the nation-building”. I’m hoping you mean “start doing it right” and not “stop trying”, because now that we’ve dug this hole we’ve got to keep digging until we hit the bottom.

I disagreed with this war from the start, but the sad truth seems to be that the hope of the “ordinary” Iraqis and the honor of the USA requires that we finish this job properly. I don’t have a grand vision, but we need more engagement, not less, and more help from all the world, even if it is just happy thoughts. We need to build schools, roads, electrical stations faster than people can blow them up, and we need to get some of the people standing on the sidelines in Iraq to realize that if we finish our job, we leave them in peace, but if the insurgency “wins” and we cut and run, they will be worse off than under Saddam.

I don’t think warthog is right that it will merely take 2 weeks of hard combat to “fix” the Sunni triangle. I have nothing but respect for the ability of our military to destroy any target they can identify, while minimizing collateral damage, but the reality is that there are always innocent deaths. Despite all the skill and dedication of our armed forces (my bro is in them, in the Navy fortunately for my mother’s nerves), the eyes of the world are now everywhere and every slip, every error, every missed round, is recorded, analyzed, blogged, transmitted, and used to show how BAAAAAD we are. We need to get past shooting and killing, and onto building and healing. That means staying there.

Posted by JPed · September 22, 2004 11:11 PM

jped

There’s a dirty little secret going around that addresses your “eyes of the world” concerns.

Israel has broken the back of the Infitada by killing almost all of the Hamas and other terrorist groups leadership. There will be individual acts of terrorism inside Israel, and like crime these individual acts cannot be totally eliminated but the “war” is over. No country on earth has received more scrutiny than Israel and now we all know that to achieve success eliminating terrorists is much more important than eliminating criticism.

Posted by Warthog · September 22, 2004 11:24 PM

Warthog — I’m sure the family of Rachel Corrie, aid worker squashed by an Israeli army bulldozer, thanks you for your concern.

Posted by JPed · September 22, 2004 11:31 PM

Aid worker or terrorist enabler?

Posted by Warthog · September 22, 2004 11:36 PM

“The Turks went wobbly”? 95% of the population was against the war!

Posted by Jack · September 23, 2004 12:04 AM

I’m pleased to learn that Israel has gotten over its problems. Very pleased indeed. I hadn’t heard that.

I now see the wisdom of modeling our relations with the Arab world on Israel’s example.

And it will start working in only two more weeks! I can’t tell you how much all this new information pleases me.

Posted by s_bethy · September 23, 2004 12:09 AM

You’ve misrepresented my posts but I’m glad that your happy anyway.

Posted by Warthog · September 23, 2004 12:45 AM

Clever Medium Lobster, infiltrating Samizdata. Where shall we go next?

Posted by Kathryn Cramer · September 23, 2004 01:24 AM

Terrorist enabler? Wow…. that is unbelievably low. Making a mental note to ignore all subsequent ramblings from the warthog. For those who want the actual story of a brave and compassionate woman’s death, look here. For those who have no heart, there’s nothing the rest of us can say anyhow.

Posted by JPed · September 23, 2004 01:44 AM

“There hasn’t been a single American casualty in 11 of the 18 provinces of Iraq. Neither has the caualty distribution changed within the 7 remaining provinces. The problem area is the Sunni Triangle. Part of the reason is that the Turks went wobbly and the 4th ID didn’t have a Northern route.”

Sorry to veer away from our entertaining topic. I love talking about the propensity of Libertarians to wield petards at close quarters, but warthog’s assertions above cry out for investigation.

Coalition Casualty Report makes it pretty easy to see that the “not a single casualty” claim is incorrect. I didn’t try very hard to nail down the province of every casualty in the list, but even casual research turns up US (NOT broader ‘coalition’) fatal casualties in 16 of the 18 provinces.

The two provinces that I’m not sure about, As Sulaymaniyah and Dahuk, are in the Kurdish Autonomous Region, which I think we can agree doesn’t fit the same profile as the rest of Iraq. By the way, I seem to recall the US getting nervous about Turkey threatening to situate troops in that area. Fortunately, they got ‘wobbly’.

21% of US casualties have been suffered in Baghdad proper. Oddly enough, Baghdad houses about 20% of Iraq’s non-coalition population.

I’m sure there are interesting facts about the geographical distribution of coalition casualties. It’s probably not necessary to make some up.

Posted by s_bethy · September 23, 2004 02:00 AM

I believe there is at least a 50% chance Bushco starts pulling out next summer, down to 2 division by winter ‘05, no matter what consequences or conditions in Iraq.

Expensive war, Greenspan gettin jumpy, and well, taxcuts uber alles.

Posted by bob mcmanus · September 23, 2004 03:15 AM

Does that 50% figure incorporate his chances of being in office next summer?

Posted by s_bethy · September 23, 2004 03:22 AM

Here is a standing bet: if Bush wins, a savage offensive is coming in November. The losses for the US military, the insurgents and civilians will be unprecedented. And what will follow that is something along the lines of Operation Phoenix a al Vietnam. I offer no bets whether this will achieve anything ot not (in a number of respects).

Posted by Peter · September 23, 2004 03:29 AM

I should add that if this thing does enter an Operation Phoenix phase I see a “No soldier can carry a digital camera into the operational theater with him/her” type of order. Ghosts of Abu Ghairab and all that.

Posted by Peter · September 23, 2004 03:38 AM

I should add that if this thing does enter an Operation Phoenix phase I see a “No soldier can carry a digital camera into the operational theater with him/her” type of order. Ghosts of Abu Ghairab and all that.

Posted by Peter · September 23, 2004 03:39 AM

If (big if) you’re a consequentialist (such as a Utilitarian or Utilitarian-of-Rights), and believe omission (Iraqis killed by Baathites, many of whom are probably now insurgents) and comission (Iraqis killed by US and by insurgents, since insurgent movement is only killing people due to invasion) are morally equivalent, then I think you can make an argument that (absent alternative uses of the money and troops, which would be hard to calculate hypotheticals) that the intervention has saved significant net lives. As I understand it, the Baathist regime killed about 100 people a day between GW I and GW II (not counting excessively high mortality due to sanctions). The 15,000 or so Iraqi deaths and 1,500 or so coalition deaths yields fewer killings per day.

But then again, I think moral systems which are purely consequential are pretty superficial. For me, omission and commission are different.

Posted by dubious · September 23, 2004 05:06 AM

dubious,
As I understand it, the Baathist regime killed about 100 people a day between GW I and GW II (not counting excessively high mortality due to sanctions). The 15,000 or so Iraqi deaths and 1,500 or so coalition deaths yields fewer killings per day.

Where did you get all these numbers, especially 100 people a day?

How many did they kill in 2002 - why do you think it’s 100 people a day and not 2 people a day or 0 people a day?

Thanks.

Warthog,
There hasn’t been a single American casualty in 11 of the 18 provinces of Iraq.

“The onion” already had a similar joke: big success: 99% of Iraqis are still alive! Or something like that.

You could’ve added that 80% of the US troops have neither been killed nor injured nor committed suicide nor were medically evacuated for any other reason. Not bad, huh?

Posted by abb1 · September 23, 2004 07:10 AM

Warthog
Israel has broken the back of the Infitada by killing almost all of the Hamas and other terrorist groups leadership. There will be individual acts of terrorism inside Israel, and like crime these individual acts cannot be totally eliminated but the “war” is over.

Wasn’t there a suicide bombing just yesterday? And isn’t Sharon now in the middle of the so-called ‘cut-and-run’ thing in Gaza? Not on your planet, huh.

Yes, at least in Gaza it, indeed, is over - the resistance won.

Before that it was over in Lebanon - the resistance won there.

Stay tuned.

Posted by abb1 · September 23, 2004 07:51 AM
dubious,
to your (dubious?) claim about 100 people killed by the Baathist regime every day. I have no idea what the correct number is, but here’s what we do know, from the Guardian:
PM admits graves claim ‘untrue’

Sunday July 18, 2004

Downing Street has admitted to The Observer that repeated claims by Tony Blair that ‘400,000 bodies had been found in Iraqi mass graves’ is untrue, and only about 5,000 corpses have so far been uncovered.

Cheers.

Posted by abb1 · September 23, 2004 11:07 AM
Followups

→ his truth is marching on.
Excerpt: Jacob Levy may be officially gone from the blogosphere, but he lives on in correspondence. In response to the notion that good and true Libertarians simply cannot consistently support humanitarian foreign wars, he writes: Libertarianism is incompatible...Read more at Crescat Sententia
→ his truth is marching on.
Excerpt: Jacob Levy may be officially gone from the blogosphere, but he lives on in correspondence. In response to the notion that good and true Libertarians simply cannot consistently support humanitarian foreign wars, he writes: Libertarianism is incompatible...Read more at Crescat Sententia
→ Song of the Schmibertarians.
Excerpt: I agree with Matt. Jacob Levy’s defense of the possibility of Libertarian Hawkishness is coherent and even forceful in the...Read more at Kieran Healy's Weblog
→ Song of the Schmibertarians.
Excerpt: I agree with Matt. Jacob Levy’s defense of the possibility of Libertarian Hawkishness is coherent and even forceful in the...Read more at Kieran Healy's Weblog
→ Song of the Schmibertarians.
Excerpt: I agree with Matt. Jacob Levy’s defense of the possibility of Libertarian Hawkishness is coherent and even forceful in the...Read more at Kieran Healy's Weblog
→ Needs must when the devil drives.
Excerpt: A series of posts on Crooked Timber criticise pro-Iraq war libertarians, mentioning this blog in particular. The posts (and still more the comments) differ in their degree of charitability to our position but the general thrust is '... can we think of ...Read more at Samizdata.net
→ Needs must when the devil drives.
Excerpt: A series of posts on Crooked Timber criticise pro-Iraq war libertarians, mentioning this blog in particular. The posts (and still more the comments) differ in their degree of charitability to our position but the general thrust is '... can we think of ...Read more at Samizdata.net

This discussion has been closed. Thanks to everyone who contributed.