November 25, 2004

The Wrong Pie

Posted by Kieran

Thanksgiving is one of America’s best ideas. Appropriately it is intimately associated with one of America’s worst inventions, the Pumpkin Pie. I say “appropriately” because such antinomies are common in American life. North and South, Red States and Blue States, expensive gourmet coffee and never a spoonful of real cream to put in it what do you mean you only have the kind that sprays out of a can never mind no that’s fine. On such foundational tensions is America built. I’m sure Alexis de Toqueville has a line about this somewhere in Democracy in America. Something about the Pumpkin containing the Seeds of its own Destruction — no wait, that was Marx in Vol. III of Theorien über den Wurzelgemüse. For de Tocqueville, pumpkin pie is the fulcrum of the argument developed in Book II, Chapter 14 of Democracy in America, where he shows “How the taste for physical gratifications is united in America to love of freedom and attention to public affairs.” A taste for physical gratification that is fed with pumpkin pie is sure to kindle a strong love of freedom (from the obligation to eat any more) and a concomitant commitment to public affairs (especially the effort to ban the thing once and for all).

I admit this may be a minority reading of de Tocqueville, though surely a wholly plausible one of Marx. But a number of figures in pie scholarship may be against me. Although I have not been able to trace a specific pumpkin-related discussion by the best-known of the world’s two leading pie authorities (the other one is similarly silent on the matter), there is some evidence that Fafnir is strongly pro-pumpkin. (“If a pumpkin pie is not a pie, well then I do not want to live in a world with your cold mechanical robot pies!”) This is a worry. The pumpkin pie is generally neglected in the social science literature, in my view rightly so. Milton Friedman once commented that “Most economic fallacies derive … from the tendency to assume that there is a fixed pie”, but the pie’s actual substance was left unspecified by him. Neoclassical economics assumed away the pumpkin by fiat, a move that goes back at least as far as Walras. He found that the tatonnement process could not plausibly be completed as long as the auctioneer was left with a shitload of pumpkin that he couldn’t get off his hands for love or money. It re-entered the philosophical literature in Wittgenstein, who got it from Sraffa, but his solution is unknown — although in 2001 his grave in Cambridge was found to have a pork pie on top of it (no, really, it was), and also a Mr Kipling Cake — perhaps evidence of efforts at solution via reduction to problems already solved.

At any rate, my plan is to avoid the pumpkin altogether and make an apple crumble instead. I have a lot of things to be thankful for today, and I hope you do as well — and if one of them is the courage to face up to reality and just eat the nutmeg out of the jar this year instead of using pumpkin puree as a substrate for it, so much the better for you.

Posted on November 25, 2004 07:55 AM UTC
Comments

Oh come on… Pumpkin pie is delicious and quite possibly the best part of Thanksgiving! I miss it now that I’m in England…

An (American) friend of mine once told me a story about how she spent a year at Oxford, and when her college put on ‘Thanksgiving’ for the American students, they deliberately mangled the pumpkin pie because they couldn’t believe anyone would want to eat something that tastes like what real pumpkin pie tastes like!

Posted by Andrew · November 25, 2004 08:11 AM

Eduoard de Pomiane, the French gastronome and nutritionist noted that in his youth, the shops used to have pumkins sitting outside the shop as an inviting display, whereas by the time he wrote his book, they had moved them inside and onto a little wooden stool. He also noted that all the neighbourhood dogs used to stop next to the pumpkins “for a while”, and that while food perhaps no longer had that special tang of his youth, the stool was probably a material positive contribution to public health.

Posted by dsquared · November 25, 2004 08:21 AM

May I offer a musical recommendation? “Finger the Pie” by Damnation TX, off the album Half Mad Moon. Available on ITunes. Might help get you through this pie thing.

Posted by JennyD · November 25, 2004 09:36 AM

Pumpkin pie is quite delicious; clearly all you naysayers have never had it properly prepared.

Posted by Chris Lawrence · November 25, 2004 09:48 AM

Pity the poor pumpkin, a sadly under-appreciated vegetable! Pumpkin pie is delicious, although it must be served with fresh cream, which may be a problem in philistine nations where ‘cream’ comes from cans.

I find it hard to get decent pumpkins in the UK. All the shops seem to have are butternut squash — a tasteless mediocrity of a vegetable.

Posted by Duane · November 25, 2004 10:19 AM

Damned nutritious, too, chock full of beta carotene. Better cold than warm, and can be eaten by hand without getting one’s fingers sticky. Definitely more user-friendly than a meat pie.

Nevertheless, it may not be the best foundation for those who wish to make the pie higher.

Posted by bad Jim · November 25, 2004 10:22 AM

Chris Lawrence is wrong. Improperly prepared, pumpkin pie is bad. Properly prepared it is Evil.

May I suggest you try a pecan pie instead. I once had a slice in southern America (where the waitress corrected my pronunciation - ‘Honey, a PE-can goes under your bed at night’). It was love at first bite and I now make them at least a few times a year. I have an excellent if slightly unorthodox recipe that I would be happy to send you. You must caution diabetic people not to approach within ten paces of the pie.

Not that pumpkins deserve our contempt. Far from it; we should respect them enough that we do not empie them. Instead, make them into a soup, with each serving ladled into a small hollowed-out pumpkin of its own.

Posted by Mrs Tilton · November 25, 2004 10:23 AM

Not being American, I have no idea what pumpkin pie is like, so I’m not really qualified to comment on it. However, I can say that butternut squash is very good roasted with olive oil and garlic, and that you can get pumpkins in the UK, because I made a risotto with one around Halloween (it may be that you can only get them at Halloween). The risotto, by the way, was very good (apparently the area around Mantua in northern Italy does lots of things with pumpkin: the stuffed pasta is supposedly particularly good).

Posted by Rob · November 25, 2004 11:05 AM

“the best-known of the world’s two leading pie authorities”: if Kieran’s purpose is to provoke grammatical complaint, I’m happy to oblige.

Posted by JamesW · November 25, 2004 11:23 AM

Make it from scratch; use fresh pumpkin. Boil it. Strain, don’t puree. Throw in about a cup of Irish whiskey, some chopped hazelnuts, all the usual spices, plus cardamom.

I’ve never once had complaints about MY pumpkin pie—Except from people who like the godawful frozen prefab kind.

Posted by Jason Kuznicki · November 25, 2004 12:47 PM

Nothing, repeat nothing can compete with thick soup made of pumpkins from Styria (based on a good plain consomme of course, and with the help of a table spoon creme fraiche or two spoons of fresh sour cream). Add some roasted pumpkin seeds, croutons, and a dash of Styrian “Kernöl” (pumpkin seed oil), and you have a starter that’s really delicious. The Governator loves it.

Posted by Styrian Oak · November 25, 2004 12:59 PM

Brits don’t understand pumpkins. Americans on the whole either have their food too sweet and fatty or too low-fat and ‘healthy’. Commercial pie pastries are almost always depressing.

Adding these things up however does not amount to a blanket condemnation of pumpkin pies. Even in the best, admittedly, the texture can be a bit bland and they are best enjoyed with other dishes rather than as the basis of your whole diet, but the best are definitely very good indeed and should not be dismissed from culinary consideration.

Posted by Tracy · November 25, 2004 03:59 PM

Make whatever type of pie you like, Kieran. My mother, an Irish export like yourself, lets all her culinary creativity run wild on Thanksgiving, and the holiday is all the better for it.

I never go to Starbucks - they really don’t have cream? I know Au Bon Pain does.

Posted by digamma · November 25, 2004 05:01 PM

Fine. But you haven’t truly experienced the sentimental—nay, religious—urge to participate in wholehearted Thanksgiving until you’ve tasted the true American original: the sweet potato pie.

Pumpkins are late-comers, upstarts, and may only be forgiven their intrusion on the Thanksgiving sideboard in consideration of the sensible avoidance of unnecessary Halloween waste.

There’s still time! I’ve posted an adaptation of Fannie Farmer’s recipe here.

Posted by Jason G. Williscroft · November 25, 2004 05:33 PM

Blueberry pie is the best of pies and yes, pumpkin pie is an atrocity.

Posted by rosalind · November 25, 2004 09:38 PM

That should be “über die Wurzelgemüse.” Or “das.” But no “den.”

And everything made with sweet potatoes is disgusting, unless it’s fried or curried. Prefereably both.

Posted by bza · November 25, 2004 09:56 PM

Das Wurzelgemüse. Only das, except if you want to form a questionable plural of Gemüse. And as far as I’m aware, pumpkins aren’t Wurzelgemüse.

Bon appétit.

Posted by chris waigl · November 25, 2004 10:22 PM

I stand corrected, and blush.

Posted by bza · November 25, 2004 10:40 PM

Pumpkins are noble and in Australia are treated with respect - by baking them, making soup, risotto, whatever. (We can even accept Flo’s scones). Not ‘pumpkin pie’ though. This hideous concoction is an abomination in the eyes of all right-thinking people.

Posted by Anthony · November 25, 2004 10:42 PM

I find pumpkin pie delicious, but I do find pecan pie the best. I grew up in Louisiana (Cajun country), and everyone there said puh-kahn, so pronunication clearly varies from one part of the South to another. I personally find pee-can grating, but hey, different strokes for different folks.

Posted by Hektor Bim · November 26, 2004 03:57 AM

Pumpkins are great food - for pigs.

Anthony, here’s one Aussie who doesn’t revere pumpkin - too much roast Queensland Blue in my childhood.

Posted by derrida derider · November 26, 2004 04:08 AM

Pumpkins are great food - for pigs.

Anthony, here’s one Aussie who doesn’t revere pumpkin - too much roast Queensland Blue in my childhood.

Posted by derrida derider · November 26, 2004 04:09 AM

Ha! Saying it twice doesn’t make it true DD.
That said the old Bluey can be a bit variable.

Posted by Anthony · November 26, 2004 01:01 PM

You all need to make your pumpkin pies with cream cheese and rum.

Truely the ambrosia feasted upon by the gods.

Posted by Gozer · November 27, 2004 02:43 AM

Pumpkin pie doesn’t taste like pure nutmeg unless the cook’s hand slipped. While it isn’t my favorite pie (I, too, favor pecan, pronounced pe - CAHN, the Texas state nut), made with cream, brown sugar and fresh ginger it is very good.

Posted by anon · November 27, 2004 07:39 PM
Followups

→ Happy Thanksgiving!.
Excerpt: Kieran is a funny man, but clearly he hasn’t yet refined his taste for American cuisine. Sadly, neither have my wife or children. All three are pumpkin pie haters. So today I’ll be the only King in the Tucson King household eating my delici...Read more at Brayden King
→ Thanksgiving heresy?.
Excerpt: Someone needs to tell my brother-in-law Bob that he isn't alone, despite those who might claim he ought to have his permanent residency revoked because he doesn't like the stuff. I'm good with pumpkin pie. And pecan pie. And apple...Read more at Shades of Mediocrity

This discussion has been closed. Thanks to everyone who contributed.