My wife commented that ‘They must have taken his phone away from him.’ as we sort of expected an avalanche of 3AM tweetgasms.
Still, the dogs have been whistled to, loudly and thoroughly. This is a sop to his critics in the media who will, alas, eat it up.
It’s no more sincere than anything else the man has ever said; and he knows where his place is in this fight, because yesterday his campaign put up this weeks enemies list“campaign ad”.
To paraphrase John Oliver last night, “Not saying anything was the loudest statement he could have made.”
An excellent development, and quite disgraceful that it took him so long. Now all we in the UK need is to hear Jeremy Corbyn unequivocally condemn the actions of the Maduro government in Venezuela.
Dipper, that’ll happen after Trump condemns Duterte for what he’s doing in the Philippines. Or do you not are about that for some reason?
I’d like to see Trump and May unequivocally condemn the Saudi’s war in Yemen. Using British and US weapons and munitions supplied with the support of those governments, no less. I don’t see Corbyn sending arms to a foreign government to fight in Venezuela. And why no pressure on Trump to condemn the government of Israel for their occupation of Palestine? Please don’t suggest that military occupation is somehow less bad than the Venezuela government.
Actually, it was all mealy-mouthed horseshit that was probably extracted through some serious arm-twisting. Trump is a Nazi sympathizer surrounded by others of his ilk and is simply too unstable to be able to properly stay low and hide his actual support for Nazi ideology.
“They have the best prices, beautiful prices, you’ll get tired of all the winning with the prices.”
Eh, whenever I’ve looked around in one the styles of clothes seem kind of shit–like a marginally upscaled TJ Maxx. Did find a decent pair of cargo shorts one time though.
Oh c’mon, can’t you see that Trump is a philosophical genius, having developed the idea of “polygonal responsibility”, because there is blame on “many sides”?
If I may Belle, that title to your post is Colbert-worthy.
@ Belle. It is your thread – if you don’t want me to side track into Corbyn you can just moderate it out.
There are many similarities between Corbyn and Trump although they are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Both have little regard for the institutions of democracy, both make vague statements that may be policy, may not be policy, no-one really knows. Both are quite weak people out of their depth.
Corbyn has consistently supported Chavez and then Maduro, giving Venezuela as an example of the kind of socialism he supports as have many of his followers and supporters. Hence when his close friends in Venezuela start arresting political opponents at midnight, and when armed thugs acting in the name of the regime start executing opponents in the street, we are entitled to ask if this is what Corbyn plans for us, and when he condemns violence “on both side” wonder if when Corbyn’s Momentum cronies start the persecutions, confiscations and suspension of civil rights in the UK he will stand up for the rule of law or once again wring his hands and condemn all parties equally.
Governments by their nature deal with other governments who have policies they do not agree with. No-one in the UK government has ever held up Saudi Arabia as an example of the kind of country they think the UK should become. Foreign secretary Boris Johnson has criticised the human rights record of Saudi Arabia and criticised its war in Yemen. I have no knowledge of whether Trump has held up the Duterte regime as an example for the USA. Supporting it would be seriously stupid and failure to condemn gross breaches of human rights in an ally would be failing to do his duty.
“An excellent development, and quite disgraceful that it took him so long. Now all we in the UK need is to hear Jeremy Corbyn unequivocally condemn the actions of the Maduro government in Venezuela.”
Because Venezuela is part of Britain, of course. Exactly equivalent cases.
Speaking as someone in the UK, who doesn’t think much of Corbyn or Maduro, I really don’t give a damn what he “condemns”. I am quite comfortable with the fact that many famous old British PMs said nice things about nasty regimes, as we all know they did. If this subject bothers anyone so much, let’s see a comprehensive audit of what every current MP has ever opined about crimes in hot countries, such as South Africa, Angola, Syria, wherever.
They hear no sound, the swell is strong;
Though the wind hath fallen they drift along,
Till the vessel strikes with a shivering crack,―
‘Oh Christ! It is the Nordstrom Rack!’
Under the long and scanty hair he caught glimpses of a plum-blue skin. Into the depths of those lustrous eyes, his spirit sled with no sound of splash. She uttered a few low words, rapidly, in her native tongue. The candle, guttering beside the bed, was strangled in the grasp of the prehensile foot, and darkness received, like a ripple in velvet, the final happy sigh.
His Monkey Wife (1931)
John Collier
In the renewal of openly racist times a lighter vein is sought. Not misogynist to be sure, to go beyond toying with modern sensibilities, beyond miscegenation, for the wife is a chimp. These lines close the novel. Completion achieved at last.
And now (Tuesday evening), of course, we know what T. Rump really thinks, that Monday’s statement was designed to get people off his back…but he couldn’t control himself. What a mess.
And it only took him a day to retreat to his earlier support for the white supremacists and their protest of the removal of the statute. Except this time he was less guarded; instead of using high-pitched dog whistles (what else could “we must . . . cherish our history” mean in this context?), he came out and explicitly praised the white supremacists who were there to “unite the right” around statues honoring Lee and Jackson (“Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue of Robert E Lee, and you take a look at it, many of those people were there to protest the taking down of the statue of Robert E Lee. So this week it’s Robert E Lee, I noticed that Stonewall Jackson is coming down, I wonder is it George Washington next week and is it Thomas Jefferson the week after? You all, you really do have to ask yourself where does it stop … You had some bad people in that group, but you also had very fine people on both sides.”). As many others have said before, Trump is one of them.
1.The only time I shopped at Nordstrom’s Rack in Seattle, I found size 17 Orange Alligator boots. With square toes. 1/2 price!
2. Why do we never discuss how wonderful it would be if the CSA did secede? Connecticut sends a $ to DC and gets .68 back. AL sends a $ to DC and gets $2.00.
Let them go and pay their own bills!
So what do the folks who concern trolled Henry Farrell for posting a photograph of a couple of alt-righters – IIRC, those fine gentlemen were wearing “Daily Sturmer” shirts to communicate economic distress – have to say about all this ?
Dipper
Barging into other people’s conversation with a different topic you would prefer to discuss is rude. It doesn’t stop being rude just because there is somebody who has the power to prevent your rudeness and does not do so, and it doesn’t stop being rude just because some people choose to respond to your point.
@taj. Trump isn’t my president. I don’t generally comment on other nations’ politics as all domestic politics is a family argument opaque to others. For instance I have never read any insightful comments on Brexit from people outside the UK, just lots of comments from people who do not understand it and don’t have the knowledge.
The reason for my post was that many of the reasons people don’t like Trump are the same reasons many people in the UK don’t like Corbyn. For instance Corbyn and his allies have attended meetings with people waving hammer and sickle flags and some of his key associates are on the record as supporting Stalin. Corbyn, like Trump, has an inability to distance himself from people committing terrorist acts in causes with which he sympathises.
Those folks who were suggesting that Henry should display more sensitivity to those of us who haven’t bothered to find out what nazis look like these days? We may have to give them credit for being minimally aware enough to realise how that might read right now. It’s still early though, they might drop by eventually.
“Jeremy, we really need to shut this down. If we d0n’t come out against Maduro, we won’t get any of those crucial Northern marginals.”
“Yes, but Seumas, if I condemn Maduro then I won’t be able to do any of that bad stuff I’m planning to do in power. Remember, I’m supposed to be the only Leninist revolutionary ever who feels obliged to stick to all his manifesto and campaign promises and stances.”
Well, I thought and I wrote that the faces in the photos should have been blurred so let me respond here.
Are you suggesting -if you are not, apologies- that every and any neo-nazi should be shamed and outed because this might prevent someone from getting run over ? This seems far-fetched. It does not follow from not publishing his image that James Fields was necessarily going to plow his car in a crowd of protesters. In fact , two hundred other neo-nazis who were not publicly shamed attended the march and they did not run anyone over, afaik.
Anyways , my position is that neo-nazi groups should be banned in the U.S. just like they are banned in several European countries, and that neo-nazi speech should be banned as well. I have little patience with moral crusaders who operate privately, driven to denounce the private behavior of their co-citizens by an irresistible and deeply-felt sense of indignation and an exacerbated sense of “right and wrong”. It’s very American , rooted in puritanism, and I think this mindset is responsible for the hardening of the public debate in the U.S. where each side in the culture wars is convinced of its moral superiority. I’d much rather public moral positions be arrived after rational democratic discourse and clearly encoded in the law. If you believe this is a public matter, make the wearing of these t-shirts in the realm of the public law , not the object of personal crusades.
You are unreal. Britain is literally participating in the bombing and blockade of Yemen, it is actively involved in causing the famine and the cholera epicdemic and has been for years, and you have the nerve to defend these crimes against humanity by referring to Boris Johnson’s remarks as if they were of some kind of consequence.
As for Venezuela, Britain has, the last time I checked, not suspended its arms sales to Venezuela. Perhaps you should direct your criticisms to the Government rather than to the Leader of the Opposition.
Philippe@34 – “Are you suggesting -if you are not, apologies- that every and any neo-nazi should be shamed and outed because this might prevent someone from getting run over ?”
I am suggesting that anyone who wears Nazi themed gear can, with 99 % certainty, be correctly identified as a nazi sympathizer.
Question for the better informed – what’s with the shields the neo-nazis all wield ? The shields uniformly have either symbols that look like a giant “X” or cryptic lettering on them. Is it supposed to symbolize the shield of Charlemagne, satire of Charles Martel, runes of Siegfried the aryan law-giver ? What are they role-playing ?
“The League of the South has been described as a white supremacist and white nationalist organization. The Southern Poverty Law Center has designated the League of the South as a Neo-Confederate hate group.”
I have little patience with moral crusaders who operate privately, driven to denounce the private behavior of their co-citizens by an irresistible and deeply-felt sense of indignation and an exacerbated sense of “right and wrongâ€.
Marching in a torchlight procession in a public space screaming “White Power” and “Jew Will Not Replace Us” is hardly ‘private behavior’.
Banning “hate speech” or “neonazi’s” would lead to banning protest speech” and “Black Lives Matter” in a heartbeat.
Also, what is absolutely not ironic is that daily stormer lost its .com domain and has reappeared as .ru now. Fiction is just going to have to give up for a while, how can it possibly compete?
“The staff of The Onion, gathered in the conference room, beaten and hollow looks in their bleary and bloodshot eyes, reach for another bottle of whisky. ‘Ah screw it…just publish the real headlines again today!’ says the editor, before slowly sliding under the table and starting to snore…”
Most of the ones I saw pics of had (crossed) fasces. As the linked Wikipedia article notes, despite its 20th-century association with fascism it remains more respectable than e.g. a swastika. Thus, it still gets used in organizational heraldry in liberal democracies and isn’t recognizably fascistic to a layperson, but nods and winks to that distinguished lineage to proud fascists who are better informed than the sheeple, cucks, and race-traitors. It’s basically meant as a fit-for-polite-company swastika in this context, with a side helping of aren’t-we-so-clever.
Philippe
As a participant in that earlier discussion, it was not my impression that anybody was suggesting that disclosing the identity of neo-Nazis was an obligation; it was my impression that some people (including me) were suggesting that it was acceptable, as against some other people (apparently including you) who were suggesting (for reasons that they never made clear to me) that it was unacceptable. If I happen to know that Ploni Almoni actually is a neo-Nazi, what good reason is there for me not to mention it here?
Dipper, I doubt you’ve read anything insightful about brexit from your own country, given you only read Farage.
Philippe you seem to be implying it’s Henry’s fault that the car drove into the protesters.
I too am intrigued to hear the theories of the defenders of those two nice daily stormer boys on the previous thread. Do please come forward and tell us how wrong it is to publicly shame these people! But maybe watch the vice report first so you know exactly who and what you’re defending.
And… not banning neonazis, that means Black Lives Matter can assemble in peace and be heard, yes?
Two entirely different and orthogonal premises.
But not banning organizations deemed ‘hateful’ would certainly mean that BLM members would not be rounded up and clapped in jail on sight. Because your’e asking for it to be illegal for certain people to freely assemble, for whatever purpose.
Claiming we should just “ban neonazi groups” in the context of modern America and the strictures of the Constitution is akin to entering hand-to-hand combat armed with dynamite.
BruceJ @ 1: To paraphrase John Oliver last night, “Not saying anything was the loudest statement he could have made.â€
“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil:
God will not hold us guiltless.
Not to speak is to speak.
Not to act is to act.â€
― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
I believe hundreds of people who protested Donald Trump’s inauguration are still in jail awaiting trial. The protesters attempting to prevent the Dakota Access Pipeline were attacked with concussion grenades. What violence do you think BLM has not been subjected to that they would be subjected to if these neo-nazi marches were banned?
I can only hope that American liberals finally start taking fascism seriously. And stop deluding themselves. Trump is a fascist – not just a cynical opportunist pandering to fascists, but a fascist at heart – and there is a considerable fascist movement in the US that forms his base and through the GOP exerts real power. And there is no reason whatsoever to believe that “it can’t happen here”.
Oh and about that leftist fraction of the sanctimonious rhetoric – does it finally dawn on you that, surprise surprise, the “lesser evil” is preferable to the grater evil after all?
There is no equivalency. The Nazi’s, especially the KKK, in US have a history of murder, terrorism, arson… By comparison Antifa is a school yard bully. Trump should have just condemned the race motivated violence and stopped talking. Unfortunately he lacks either the ability or the desire to do so.
Trump’s reference to ‘violence on both sides’ is a reference to the fact that Antifa showed up to physically fight the Nazi’s. The problem is Antifa has a history of showing up to political rallies to physically fight (Trump supporters, Capitalists, anyone they disagree with, reporters, etc). It is their MO.
As an example, at the Charlottesville tragedy, Antifa assaulted two reporters. One ended up in the hospital with a concussion.
The next day at the vigil Antifa assaulted a black student for wearing a Trump hat.
“When masked members of the militant-left group Antifa saw Mr. Slater, they approached him, asked him about his hat, told him to leave and attacked him.
He said his assailants grabbed him by his clothes, choked him with his camera strap and pushed him into the street.” http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/aug/15/antifa-assaults-black-conservative-student-vigil-c/
I do not bring this up to justify the terrorism or suggest equivalency. There is none. I bring it up as a warning. Politics in the US is again turning violent.
@James, neither one of those links is particularly impressive. If you mean to say that when angry people meet in the streets, sometimes pushing and shoving (or worse) results, that’s hardly surprising. But if one group is showing up armed to the teeth to promote racism and white supremacy, and the other one is showing up largely unarmed to protest them, the resulting violence has a cause, and the cause isn’t the latter group.
In 10th grade in Catholic HS Theology class, we discussed the morality of killing Hitler in 1923 (rabble rouser), 1932 (possible threat to the peace), 1938 (definite threat) and 1945.
Should we act or not?
What should our response be to today’s Nazis?
1923 Hitler might have been run over by a beer truck in 1924.
But after 1945, the actions of Nazis are predictable.
What’s more, so does Mayor Marty Walsh: “I want to thank all the people that came out today. I want to thank all the people that came out to share … that message of love not hate; to fight back on racism; to fight back on anti-Semitism; to fight back on the white supremacists that are coming to our city — on the Nazis that were coming to our city.â€
{ 58 comments }
BruceJ 08.14.17 at 5:52 pm
My wife commented that ‘They must have taken his phone away from him.’ as we sort of expected an avalanche of 3AM tweetgasms.
Still, the dogs have been whistled to, loudly and thoroughly. This is a sop to his critics in the media who will, alas, eat it up.
It’s no more sincere than anything else the man has ever said; and he knows where his place is in this fight, because yesterday his campaign put up this weeks
enemies list“campaign ad”.To paraphrase John Oliver last night, “Not saying anything was the loudest statement he could have made.”
Belle Waring 08.14.17 at 6:51 pm
OK not as tough, but I guess it’s an improvement.
Hidari 08.14.17 at 7:20 pm
https://twitter.com/jodyrosen/status/896771304078024705
Almost all of Jody Rosen’s recent tweets are worth reading.
https://twitter.com/jodyrosen
Dipper 08.14.17 at 7:38 pm
An excellent development, and quite disgraceful that it took him so long. Now all we in the UK need is to hear Jeremy Corbyn unequivocally condemn the actions of the Maduro government in Venezuela.
William Berry 08.14.17 at 9:00 pm
@Dipper:
Yeah, because so obviously pertinent.
I mean, WTBFH?
Moz of Yarramulla 08.14.17 at 10:04 pm
Dipper, that’ll happen after Trump condemns Duterte for what he’s doing in the Philippines. Or do you not are about that for some reason?
I’d like to see Trump and May unequivocally condemn the Saudi’s war in Yemen. Using British and US weapons and munitions supplied with the support of those governments, no less. I don’t see Corbyn sending arms to a foreign government to fight in Venezuela. And why no pressure on Trump to condemn the government of Israel for their occupation of Palestine? Please don’t suggest that military occupation is somehow less bad than the Venezuela government.
Belle Waring 08.14.17 at 10:10 pm
Dipper: the fuck though?
Ogden Wernstrom 08.14.17 at 10:32 pm
Belle: It’s clear that Dipper thinks Jeremy Corbyn feels some affinity with Nordstrom Rack, even if they are on a different continent.
Belle Waring 08.14.17 at 11:10 pm
They do sometimes have good prices.
Layman 08.14.17 at 11:28 pm
“They do sometimes have good prices.”
They have the best prices, beautiful prices, you’ll get tired of all the winning with the prices.
Mike Furlan 08.15.17 at 12:31 am
I look forward to our President condemn the violence on “many sides” associated with this event in France.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/girl-killed-seine-et-marne-france-paris-car-slams-into-crowd-pizzeria-a7893481.html
I’m sure that if you looked carefully you would find that there were some tough hombres in the pizza parlor.
And Alex Jones, the Presidents’ good friend will tell us that the driver looks a lot like a cast member of Seinfeld.
Pavel A 08.15.17 at 12:36 am
Actually, it was all mealy-mouthed horseshit that was probably extracted through some serious arm-twisting. Trump is a Nazi sympathizer surrounded by others of his ilk and is simply too unstable to be able to properly stay low and hide his actual support for Nazi ideology.
Dipper@4: Fuck off quisling.
phenomenal cat 08.15.17 at 1:33 am
“They do sometimes have good prices.â€
“They have the best prices, beautiful prices, you’ll get tired of all the winning with the prices.”
Eh, whenever I’ve looked around in one the styles of clothes seem kind of shit–like a marginally upscaled TJ Maxx. Did find a decent pair of cargo shorts one time though.
Alan White 08.15.17 at 1:58 am
Oh c’mon, can’t you see that Trump is a philosophical genius, having developed the idea of “polygonal responsibility”, because there is blame on “many sides”?
If I may Belle, that title to your post is Colbert-worthy.
nastywoman 08.15.17 at 3:41 am
As ”the Nordstrom Rack” – Ups? –
I mean ”Ivanka” – made him do it – we should NOT make fun of the Nordstrom Rack.
We should thank the Nordstrom Rack!
bad Jim 08.15.17 at 7:34 am
Let’s make it clear that the Nordstrom Rack is not some sort of Procrustean bed bath and beyond.
Dipper 08.15.17 at 8:41 am
@ Belle. It is your thread – if you don’t want me to side track into Corbyn you can just moderate it out.
There are many similarities between Corbyn and Trump although they are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Both have little regard for the institutions of democracy, both make vague statements that may be policy, may not be policy, no-one really knows. Both are quite weak people out of their depth.
Corbyn has consistently supported Chavez and then Maduro, giving Venezuela as an example of the kind of socialism he supports as have many of his followers and supporters. Hence when his close friends in Venezuela start arresting political opponents at midnight, and when armed thugs acting in the name of the regime start executing opponents in the street, we are entitled to ask if this is what Corbyn plans for us, and when he condemns violence “on both side” wonder if when Corbyn’s Momentum cronies start the persecutions, confiscations and suspension of civil rights in the UK he will stand up for the rule of law or once again wring his hands and condemn all parties equally.
Governments by their nature deal with other governments who have policies they do not agree with. No-one in the UK government has ever held up Saudi Arabia as an example of the kind of country they think the UK should become. Foreign secretary Boris Johnson has criticised the human rights record of Saudi Arabia and criticised its war in Yemen. I have no knowledge of whether Trump has held up the Duterte regime as an example for the USA. Supporting it would be seriously stupid and failure to condemn gross breaches of human rights in an ally would be failing to do his duty.
Mike Furlan 08.15.17 at 11:43 am
I predict that the kids who tore down the CSA shrine
in Durham will do more jail time than the murderous
Nazis mob in Charlottesville.
Many sides….
casmilus 08.15.17 at 11:53 am
@4
“An excellent development, and quite disgraceful that it took him so long. Now all we in the UK need is to hear Jeremy Corbyn unequivocally condemn the actions of the Maduro government in Venezuela.”
Because Venezuela is part of Britain, of course. Exactly equivalent cases.
Speaking as someone in the UK, who doesn’t think much of Corbyn or Maduro, I really don’t give a damn what he “condemns”. I am quite comfortable with the fact that many famous old British PMs said nice things about nasty regimes, as we all know they did. If this subject bothers anyone so much, let’s see a comprehensive audit of what every current MP has ever opined about crimes in hot countries, such as South Africa, Angola, Syria, wherever.
chris y 08.15.17 at 2:01 pm
They hear no sound, the swell is strong;
Though the wind hath fallen they drift along,
Till the vessel strikes with a shivering crack,―
‘Oh Christ! It is the Nordstrom Rack!’
Omega Centauri 08.15.17 at 3:58 pm
Pavel @12.
Well said.
Thats what our media is too chicken to publically admit.
taj 08.15.17 at 9:50 pm
Dipper: I have no knowledge of whether Trump has held up the Duterte regime as an example for the USA.
You could have typed that exact statement into google and found out. But that was never really the goal, was it?
(And to save you some time, he said “you’re doing a great job” and invited him to America.)
alfredlordbleep 08.15.17 at 10:23 pm
Under the long and scanty hair he caught glimpses of a plum-blue skin. Into the depths of those lustrous eyes, his spirit sled with no sound of splash. She uttered a few low words, rapidly, in her native tongue. The candle, guttering beside the bed, was strangled in the grasp of the prehensile foot, and darkness received, like a ripple in velvet, the final happy sigh.
His Monkey Wife (1931)
John Collier
In the renewal of openly racist times a lighter vein is sought. Not misogynist to be sure, to go beyond toying with modern sensibilities, beyond miscegenation, for the wife is a chimp. These lines close the novel. Completion achieved at last.
Pavel A 08.15.17 at 11:21 pm
Ok guys, you saw the latest melt down… who still doesn’t think that Trump is a straight up Nazi?
Dipper@17: Fuck off you whataboutist quisling.
Donald A. Coffin 08.15.17 at 11:30 pm
And now (Tuesday evening), of course, we know what T. Rump really thinks, that Monday’s statement was designed to get people off his back…but he couldn’t control himself. What a mess.
Henry (not the famous one) 08.16.17 at 12:44 am
And it only took him a day to retreat to his earlier support for the white supremacists and their protest of the removal of the statute. Except this time he was less guarded; instead of using high-pitched dog whistles (what else could “we must . . . cherish our history” mean in this context?), he came out and explicitly praised the white supremacists who were there to “unite the right” around statues honoring Lee and Jackson (“Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue of Robert E Lee, and you take a look at it, many of those people were there to protest the taking down of the statue of Robert E Lee. So this week it’s Robert E Lee, I noticed that Stonewall Jackson is coming down, I wonder is it George Washington next week and is it Thomas Jefferson the week after? You all, you really do have to ask yourself where does it stop … You had some bad people in that group, but you also had very fine people on both sides.”). As many others have said before, Trump is one of them.
RD 08.16.17 at 1:35 am
1.The only time I shopped at Nordstrom’s Rack in Seattle, I found size 17 Orange Alligator boots. With square toes. 1/2 price!
2. Why do we never discuss how wonderful it would be if the CSA did secede? Connecticut sends a $ to DC and gets .68 back. AL sends a $ to DC and gets $2.00.
Let them go and pay their own bills!
None 08.16.17 at 2:56 am
So what do the folks who concern trolled Henry Farrell for posting a photograph of a couple of alt-righters – IIRC, those fine gentlemen were wearing “Daily Sturmer” shirts to communicate economic distress – have to say about all this ?
J-D 08.16.17 at 7:27 am
Dipper
Barging into other people’s conversation with a different topic you would prefer to discuss is rude. It doesn’t stop being rude just because there is somebody who has the power to prevent your rudeness and does not do so, and it doesn’t stop being rude just because some people choose to respond to your point.
Dipper 08.16.17 at 7:47 am
@taj. Trump isn’t my president. I don’t generally comment on other nations’ politics as all domestic politics is a family argument opaque to others. For instance I have never read any insightful comments on Brexit from people outside the UK, just lots of comments from people who do not understand it and don’t have the knowledge.
The reason for my post was that many of the reasons people don’t like Trump are the same reasons many people in the UK don’t like Corbyn. For instance Corbyn and his allies have attended meetings with people waving hammer and sickle flags and some of his key associates are on the record as supporting Stalin. Corbyn, like Trump, has an inability to distance himself from people committing terrorist acts in causes with which he sympathises.
taj 08.16.17 at 8:18 am
Those folks who were suggesting that Henry should display more sensitivity to those of us who haven’t bothered to find out what nazis look like these days? We may have to give them credit for being minimally aware enough to realise how that might read right now. It’s still early though, they might drop by eventually.
Maria 08.16.17 at 9:18 am
I’d settle for him showing the same level of outrage he did that time Kristen Stewart did the dirt on Robert Pattinson.
casmilus 08.16.17 at 10:02 am
“Jeremy, we really need to shut this down. If we d0n’t come out against Maduro, we won’t get any of those crucial Northern marginals.”
“Yes, but Seumas, if I condemn Maduro then I won’t be able to do any of that bad stuff I’m planning to do in power. Remember, I’m supposed to be the only Leninist revolutionary ever who feels obliged to stick to all his manifesto and campaign promises and stances.”
“Damn, forgot about that.”
Philippe 08.16.17 at 11:54 am
@None @taj
Well, I thought and I wrote that the faces in the photos should have been blurred so let me respond here.
Are you suggesting -if you are not, apologies- that every and any neo-nazi should be shamed and outed because this might prevent someone from getting run over ? This seems far-fetched. It does not follow from not publishing his image that James Fields was necessarily going to plow his car in a crowd of protesters. In fact , two hundred other neo-nazis who were not publicly shamed attended the march and they did not run anyone over, afaik.
Anyways , my position is that neo-nazi groups should be banned in the U.S. just like they are banned in several European countries, and that neo-nazi speech should be banned as well. I have little patience with moral crusaders who operate privately, driven to denounce the private behavior of their co-citizens by an irresistible and deeply-felt sense of indignation and an exacerbated sense of “right and wrong”. It’s very American , rooted in puritanism, and I think this mindset is responsible for the hardening of the public debate in the U.S. where each side in the culture wars is convinced of its moral superiority. I’d much rather public moral positions be arrived after rational democratic discourse and clearly encoded in the law. If you believe this is a public matter, make the wearing of these t-shirts in the realm of the public law , not the object of personal crusades.
Dipper 08.16.17 at 12:25 pm
@J-D. You are correct. My apologies. I’ll keep the Corbyn stuff for another thread.
Katsue 08.16.17 at 12:32 pm
@Dipper 17
You are unreal. Britain is literally participating in the bombing and blockade of Yemen, it is actively involved in causing the famine and the cholera epicdemic and has been for years, and you have the nerve to defend these crimes against humanity by referring to Boris Johnson’s remarks as if they were of some kind of consequence.
As for Venezuela, Britain has, the last time I checked, not suspended its arms sales to Venezuela. Perhaps you should direct your criticisms to the Government rather than to the Leader of the Opposition.
casmilus 08.16.17 at 12:57 pm
Meanwhile: Daniel Larison –
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/venezuela-and-the-virtue-of-not-taking-sides/
None 08.16.17 at 3:00 pm
Philippe@34 – “Are you suggesting -if you are not, apologies- that every and any neo-nazi should be shamed and outed because this might prevent someone from getting run over ?”
I am suggesting that anyone who wears Nazi themed gear can, with 99 % certainty, be correctly identified as a nazi sympathizer.
None 08.16.17 at 3:36 pm
Question for the better informed – what’s with the shields the neo-nazis all wield ? The shields uniformly have either symbols that look like a giant “X” or cryptic lettering on them. Is it supposed to symbolize the shield of Charlemagne, satire of Charles Martel, runes of Siegfried the aryan law-giver ? What are they role-playing ?
casmilus 08.16.17 at 3:55 pm
@38
Too bad for Prince Harry.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1481148/Prince-Harry-faces-outcry-at-Nazi-outfit.html
Mike Furlan 08.16.17 at 3:58 pm
Meanwhile: Daniel Larison —
He is a member of the League of the South. Why promote him?
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-hegemonists-thomas-woods-and-the-league-of-the-south/
“The League of the South has been described as a white supremacist and white nationalist organization. The Southern Poverty Law Center has designated the League of the South as a Neo-Confederate hate group.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_the_South
BruceJ 08.16.17 at 3:58 pm
Phillipe@34:
Marching in a torchlight procession in a public space screaming “White Power” and “Jew Will Not Replace Us” is hardly ‘private behavior’.
Banning “hate speech” or “neonazi’s” would lead to banning protest speech” and “Black Lives Matter” in a heartbeat.
taj 08.16.17 at 4:34 pm
As None above said, yes. If they’re just being ironic nazis, they can go ahead receive ironic nazi shaming.
taj 08.16.17 at 4:36 pm
Also, what is absolutely not ironic is that daily stormer lost its .com domain and has reappeared as .ru now. Fiction is just going to have to give up for a while, how can it possibly compete?
BruceJ 08.16.17 at 5:43 pm
taj @43:
“The staff of The Onion, gathered in the conference room, beaten and hollow looks in their bleary and bloodshot eyes, reach for another bottle of whisky. ‘Ah screw it…just publish the real headlines again today!’ says the editor, before slowly sliding under the table and starting to snore…”
Orange Watch 08.16.17 at 8:32 pm
None@39
Most of the ones I saw pics of had (crossed) fasces. As the linked Wikipedia article notes, despite its 20th-century association with fascism it remains more respectable than e.g. a swastika. Thus, it still gets used in organizational heraldry in liberal democracies and isn’t recognizably fascistic to a layperson, but nods and winks to that distinguished lineage to proud fascists who are better informed than the sheeple, cucks, and race-traitors. It’s basically meant as a fit-for-polite-company swastika in this context, with a side helping of aren’t-we-so-clever.
J-D 08.16.17 at 9:02 pm
Philippe
As a participant in that earlier discussion, it was not my impression that anybody was suggesting that disclosing the identity of neo-Nazis was an obligation; it was my impression that some people (including me) were suggesting that it was acceptable, as against some other people (apparently including you) who were suggesting (for reasons that they never made clear to me) that it was unacceptable. If I happen to know that Ploni Almoni actually is a neo-Nazi, what good reason is there for me not to mention it here?
Collin Street 08.16.17 at 9:36 pm
Banning “hate speech†or “neonazi’s†would lead to banning protest speech†and “Black Lives Matter†in a heartbeat.
And… not banning neonazis, that means Black Lives Matter can assemble in peace and be heard, yes?
You get nothing for your tolerance of hate speech; the purveyours of hate aren’t bound by laws and rules, neither yours or their own.
Faustusnotes 08.16.17 at 11:59 pm
Dipper, I doubt you’ve read anything insightful about brexit from your own country, given you only read Farage.
Philippe you seem to be implying it’s Henry’s fault that the car drove into the protesters.
I too am intrigued to hear the theories of the defenders of those two nice daily stormer boys on the previous thread. Do please come forward and tell us how wrong it is to publicly shame these people! But maybe watch the vice report first so you know exactly who and what you’re defending.
BruceJ 08.17.17 at 12:23 am
Two entirely different and orthogonal premises.
But not banning organizations deemed ‘hateful’ would certainly mean that BLM members would not be rounded up and clapped in jail on sight. Because your’e asking for it to be illegal for certain people to freely assemble, for whatever purpose.
Claiming we should just “ban neonazi groups” in the context of modern America and the strictures of the Constitution is akin to entering hand-to-hand combat armed with dynamite.
Raven 08.17.17 at 2:06 am
BruceJ @ 1: To paraphrase John Oliver last night, “Not saying anything was the loudest statement he could have made.â€
“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil:
God will not hold us guiltless.
Not to speak is to speak.
Not to act is to act.â€
― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Katsue 08.17.17 at 12:36 pm
@50
I believe hundreds of people who protested Donald Trump’s inauguration are still in jail awaiting trial. The protesters attempting to prevent the Dakota Access Pipeline were attacked with concussion grenades. What violence do you think BLM has not been subjected to that they would be subjected to if these neo-nazi marches were banned?
TM 08.18.17 at 8:40 am
I can only hope that American liberals finally start taking fascism seriously. And stop deluding themselves. Trump is a fascist – not just a cynical opportunist pandering to fascists, but a fascist at heart – and there is a considerable fascist movement in the US that forms his base and through the GOP exerts real power. And there is no reason whatsoever to believe that “it can’t happen here”.
Oh and about that leftist fraction of the sanctimonious rhetoric – does it finally dawn on you that, surprise surprise, the “lesser evil” is preferable to the grater evil after all?
James 08.18.17 at 1:50 pm
There is no equivalency. The Nazi’s, especially the KKK, in US have a history of murder, terrorism, arson… By comparison Antifa is a school yard bully. Trump should have just condemned the race motivated violence and stopped talking. Unfortunately he lacks either the ability or the desire to do so.
Trump’s reference to ‘violence on both sides’ is a reference to the fact that Antifa showed up to physically fight the Nazi’s. The problem is Antifa has a history of showing up to political rallies to physically fight (Trump supporters, Capitalists, anyone they disagree with, reporters, etc). It is their MO.
As an example, at the Charlottesville tragedy, Antifa assaulted two reporters. One ended up in the hospital with a concussion.
https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/897977496930570240?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftownhall.com%2Ftipsheet%2Fguybenson%2F2017%2F08%2F17%2Fcnns-tapper-antifa-has-assaulted-a-number-of-journalists-too-n2370023
The next day at the vigil Antifa assaulted a black student for wearing a Trump hat.
“When masked members of the militant-left group Antifa saw Mr. Slater, they approached him, asked him about his hat, told him to leave and attacked him.
He said his assailants grabbed him by his clothes, choked him with his camera strap and pushed him into the street.”
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/aug/15/antifa-assaults-black-conservative-student-vigil-c/
I do not bring this up to justify the terrorism or suggest equivalency. There is none. I bring it up as a warning. Politics in the US is again turning violent.
Layman 08.19.17 at 12:49 pm
@James, neither one of those links is particularly impressive. If you mean to say that when angry people meet in the streets, sometimes pushing and shoving (or worse) results, that’s hardly surprising. But if one group is showing up armed to the teeth to promote racism and white supremacy, and the other one is showing up largely unarmed to protest them, the resulting violence has a cause, and the cause isn’t the latter group.
RD 08.19.17 at 3:12 pm
In 10th grade in Catholic HS Theology class, we discussed the morality of killing Hitler in 1923 (rabble rouser), 1932 (possible threat to the peace), 1938 (definite threat) and 1945.
Should we act or not?
What should our response be to today’s Nazis?
1923 Hitler might have been run over by a beer truck in 1924.
But after 1945, the actions of Nazis are predictable.
BruceJ 08.20.17 at 3:53 am
In my 10th grade class our teacher had us play ‘Origins of WWII’ several times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_World_War_II_(game) Eye opening…
Raven 08.20.17 at 7:38 am
Kevin Drum seems to think Boston is a pretty good model case.
What’s more, so does Mayor Marty Walsh: “I want to thank all the people that came out today. I want to thank all the people that came out to share … that message of love not hate; to fight back on racism; to fight back on anti-Semitism; to fight back on the white supremacists that are coming to our city — on the Nazis that were coming to our city.â€
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