South Ossetia

I don’t want to become the left blogosphere’s Russian apologist, but it was the Georgians who, yesterday, were bombarding the capitol of South Ossetia and demanding that the civilian population abandon the city. Given that, I’m not sure what more “obvious excuse” there could be for the Russians to send the tanks in; the Georgians (as implied by statements from Georgian military officers) seem to have been inclined to solve the South Ossetia problem once and for all. In particular:

The commander of Georgian peacekeepers in South Ossetia, Mamuka Kurashvili, told Georgian television: “We are forced to restore constitutional order in the whole region.”

So yeah, I’m pretty happy to conclude that, right or wrong, the Georgians have brought this upon themselves.

So, if Georgia were members of NATO then they could invoke their Charter 5 rights and NATO would be at war with Russia. Is this what you are saying? And if so, this would make the situation better?

Given Georgia’s behaviour I’m glad that they aren’t part of NATO and I hope that they never are.

I can’t help thinking that if we’d heard a bit less about restraint, and a bit more to remind Russia that joining the international system means you have be a less obvious playground bully

Like the U.S.?

Rob, if by the “Georgians” you mean the Georgian government, then you may have a point. But the people – ie the civilians – who are now going to die didn’t bring it on themselves at all. They just get to die.

Let’s not forget the actual dead bodies in all this political analysis, hey?

So you are saying that if Georgia was a member of NATO then it could feel that it could do as it pleased and be more belligerent, more violent and less prone to negotiation because the rest of NATO would come to its rescue. Great.

I stand by my original statements.

Rob here is imputing action to only one side of the dispute. The Georgian armed forces are not the only people to have used violence recently. There has been low-level violence between the Georgian armed forces and the South Ossetian forces (supported by the Russian military) for the past week or so at least.

The problem here is precisely one of asymmetry.

South Ossetia is a very small place, population wise. 70,000 people, some of whom identify with the Georgian state and have nothing to do with the separatist government supported by Russia.

Georgia, if given a free hand, could easily overwhelm the place and did in fact do that early today.

The problem, of course, is that Russia similarly can easily overwhelm Georgia. It remains to be seen exactly how far Russia will go to rescue the South Ossetians, but the introduction of a tank column through the mountain tunnel into what is still internationally recognized as Georgian territory is a significant escalation of the conflict, as are Russian aircraft bombing areas in Georgia proper.

Russia seems to view Georgia as something less than a fully independent country able to make its own defense and treaty decisions. If Russian troops cross into Georgia proper or Russian air power continues to bombard Georgia proper, then what we have is a full scale war between Russia and Georgia, initiated by Russia.

Katherine says “But the people – ie the civilians – who are now going to die didn’t bring it on themselves at all. They just get to die.”

Do you know this for a fact? Contrary to the wishes of you and me, most people in the world are, in fact, pretty damn jingoistic; quite willing to talk up a storm at least until the point when the shooting starts, at which it’s all suddenly someone else’s fault.

@11: yeah, all those gung-ho kindergarteners, just itching to sink their plastic cutlery into the twitching corpses of their enemies; twinkly-eyed babushkas with AKs under their aprons; eight-year-old girls whose main ambition in life is to slit the throats of other girls just like them born the wrong side of a line on the map.

You can bet your ass that the f*ckers responsible for starting this won’t be the ones digging the charred corpses of their children out from under the rubble of their houses.

The phrase “54-40 or Fight!” (to use one example) didn’t spring from the mouths of the elites, but from the common citizens of the region

Not a particularly good example, given that (1) the “common citizens” of the Oregon Territory at the time were almost all Indians who were due to be screwed over either way, and (2) the US didn’t get 54-40, and didn’t fight either.

You can bet your ass that the f*ckers responsible for starting this won’t be the ones digging the charred corpses of their children out from under the rubble of their houses.

I’m with you. That’s basically all I’m thinking about when I hear shitty news like this. The Saakashvilis and Putins- like the Cheneys- will die in bed.
Makes me wish I believed in Hell.

Before beliving in “fake news” try to figure out what S. Ossetia is. It is not Geogria. And 1400 civilians killed in S. Ossetia by Georgians. 90% of civilians in S. Ossetia has russian passports. And when Russian civilians are killed – Russia must save them. Thats what happening. Find more videos and you will see it for yourself.

Just a note to the new arrivals: abusive comments, anti-Semitic language or other such garbage will be deleted from the thread without hesitation, or will not make it out of the moderation queue in the first place.

From the Wikipedia, entry on South Ossetia.

‘On August 8, 2008, at the same time as the 2008 Olympics were officially started, Georgia military forces began hostilities against South Ossetia’s forces in an attempt to re-establish control over the region. The hostilities resulted in the deaths of Russian forces serving as peacekeepers in the region and other South Ossetia civilians. In response, Russian forces moved into South Ossetia and began combat operations against Georgian military forces.’

“Stalin is a hugely popular figure in Russia” where did you get that? Absolute majority of Russian despise Stalin and the crimes committed by his regime. And since he was Georgian, this might give you some insight into one of the reasons why many Russians are eager to jump into any anti-Georgian bandwagon. When millions of your kin were intentionally wiped out by the Georgian dictator (I refer to Stalin here), you will pass on this memory for generations in your subconsciousness.

roac: Oh, you’re right about the Indians all right; I was simply talking about voiced passions and sentiments , not the eventual outcome.

Nikolay,

I know this might be hard to understand, but not everyone living in South Ossetia is Ossetian (there are many Georgians and Georgian-dominated villages all mixed up with the Ossetians), and not all Ossetians support the separatist government. There is an Ossetian-led government that recognizes Georgian sovereignty over the area and controls some 20% or so of South Ossetia.

There is no way to independently verify the number of casualties. It is in the interests of the separatist government to overstate the casualties and in the interest of the Georgian government to understate them. The figure of 1400 comes from the separatist government and could even be right, but we have no idea and no way to tell.

If both of them are the same, then there’s no reason to support Russia unless you are Russian. Since Russia is determined to oppose other countries and invade its neighbors, even if the two leaders are exactly the same (which I don’t agree with), it’s very much in the interest of other world powers and Russia’s neighbors to oppose it.

Do not mislead itself looking news. Recollect the Balkans. Look the Russian news sites in a counterbalance yours.

For some reason I’m cheering for Russia and South Ossetia patriots and hope neither is militarily embarrassed in this mess. Likely because it would be good to see NATO actually try to figure out what the f%^& they are for now. Are they desert rats or what or what or what. Are they only US mercenaries? Likely yes to the last wondering, eh.

If both of them are the same, then there’s no reason to support Russia unless you are Russian.

Well, I’m Russian, so it’s kinda my patriotic duty to defend Russian actions, even though I hate it very much.
It’s certainly natural for US and Europe to support Saakashvili over Putin from the geopolitical points of view, but you have to really understand what you’re buying here. He likes to talk all the BS about “civilized world”, “freedom-loving country”, “common values” etc., but he in fact has no qualms about shutting down TV stations, putting his opponents into prisons etc. He’s also very likely to have killed a major opposition leader in London.
If he turns into a full-fledged Saddam, you’re likely to be embarrassed a little, aren’t you? Just as people who supported Chechen’s fight for independence were kinda embarrassed when Chechens started killing little babies on a big scale.

On the second thought, I don’t understand your point about supporting Georgia. Given the fact that both Saakashvili and Putin are two jingoistic bastards, why is it in the interest of the West to support Saakashili? What does the West gain by being dragged into the military conflict by this particular lying bastard? I’d say that the right thing for the sane countries to do is to try to curb ambitions of both sides of the conflict.

Yes Maria. I think I’m sorry to say.

From the Guardian article:

‘Russia’s behaviour is incompatible with its aspirations to be a respected world power. Indeed, thoughtful people will find parallels between this and earlier incidents of Russian land seizures when it thought people were looking elsewhere. – the Baltic crisis of 1939, Finland, and post-second world war Iran come to mind.’.

(emphasis added).

Alexander Kozlovsky: About 1400 Osetian civilians (of 70,000 total) have been killed during Georgia`s attacks

… at least according to Russian sources. You know what I mean.

Roman: Absolute majority of Russian despise Stalin

So, Russians despise Stalin so much that are ready to vote him in the top of Name of Russia contest, where he was #1 for a long time. Funny, isn’t it.

By the way, Kremlin apologetists, if Russia is innocent and only wanted to protect its citizens and peacekeepers in the attacked S.Ossetia (or rather “peacekeepers” – funny, a certain Cheslav Mlinnik, a former Riga OMON commander, wanted for his role in a number of attacks and killings in the Baltics in 1990-91, holds a post in the security forces of Abkhazia, another break-away region of Georgia, full of Russian “peacekeepers”…), why do Russian aircraft, as reported by CNN, bomb Tbilisi and Poti, which are way out of S.Ossetia?

To all Russia now on the largest news television channel(VESTI) have shown Maria’s first remark in our discussion.

TrZ, I’m sure you objected strenuously to the bombardment of Belgrade in 1999. After all, no-one could claim that Belgrade is in Kosovo, right? So why bomb it if the whole thing was about protecting the Kosovars?

See, it’s easy. Personally, I stick with “neither Washington nor Moscow”. I don’t make excuses for the Kremlin or the White House.

But somehow, I have the impression that most of the people now being outraged – outraged – about this Russian violation of Georgia’s sovereign borders are the same people who applauded the bombing in ’99, and are still making excuses for it.

“It’s certainly natural for US and Europe to support Saakashvili over Putin from the geopolitical points of view, but you have to really understand what you’re buying here. He likes to talk all the BS about “civilized world”, “freedom-loving country”, “common values” etc., but he in fact has no qualms about shutting down TV stations, putting his opponents into prisons etc. He’s also very likely to have killed a major opposition leader in London.”

It is interesting to me that, at first, I could not tell whether the writer was referring to Putin or Saakashvili…

Kavkaz is a delicate thing…

It is enough to argue on that of that you do not know. Come to live to Russia and we will look as your consciousness and a sight at the world in general will change. You will understand that the greatest freedom now in Russia.

«Russia wages with us war in our own territory, — the Georgian leader in interview CNN said. — Now it any more only business of Georgia. This encroachment to America, on its value, — was declared by him. — we — the freedom-loving nation, and our freedom now under blow». Cohen’s answer was very simple: Washington cannot be got involved in war on other continent for that simple reason that Georgia is not a member of the NATO. «We have supported the introduction of Georgia into the North Atlantic alliance but if they were members of the military block today we would appear in a situation when according to the fifth chapter of the charter of the NATO we would be obliged to protect Georgia from Russia», — with alarm he has noticed, having specified that for the USA «here on a card much is put». Therefore in the circumstances, in its opinion, cold heads should gain top. «It is very explosive situation», — the ex-minister has specified.« The international community should operate very quickly that it has not got out of hand », — Cohen which words quotes RIA Novosti news agency has underlined.

Nikolay,

The reason to oppose Russia in this matter is not because Saakashvili is some amazingly moral or humane person. The reason to oppose Russia is because it shouldn’t feel like it can annex bits of its neighbors arbitrarily and subvert the sovereignty of all its neighbors. Russia is a bully relative to all its neighbors and is one of the few countries actively trying to change borders all around it. That kind of behavior is enormously destabilizing and is likely to lead to a lot of suffering, as we are seeing today. Even if you don’t think Russia caused this flare-up, it would not have happened without Russia’s involvement. If Russia succeeds in this action, it will try it in Abkhazia, in Transdinestra, in Crimea, in the Baltics, maybe even in the parts of Finland or Poland it didn’t gain in its aggressive war in ’39 and ’40.

there is a huge possibility that a full out war between Russia and Georgia is on the way, its sad to see such close nations which are both Orthodox go to war and lose thousands and thousands of young boys for the sake of something that is so not worth it, Georgia has suffered enough, 20 000 Georgians died in the early 90’s, most of them were civilians, last thing Georgia needs right now is another war, Russia should not commit itself to go to war with Georgia, not only will spark a total chain of conflicts in whole of Caucasus, it will put the whole region in disaray, Russia has just ‘given’ 2 islands to China, but it tries so hard to bully such a small country like Georgia for a region like South Ossetia which is nothing more than a tiny town with only 30 000 residents, they should sit down and think hard if this is all worth it.

“If Russia succeeds in this action, it will try it in Abkhazia, in Transdinestra, in Crimea, in the Baltics, maybe even in the parts of Finland or Poland it didn’t gain in its aggressive war in ‘39 and ‘40.”

I strongly oppose imeprialism, I think that this war is profoundly stupid for every state concerned, but this is silly.

Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Nagorno Karabakh, and Transnistria did not come from nothing. During the breakup of the Soviet Union, these areas, populated mostly by people not belonging to the titular nationality of their putative future state broke away, with the help of Russia or Russian allies, to become an effectively independent state. Georgia, for whatever reason–I’d blame Gamsakhurdia–was particularly vulnerable to this.

Could Abkhazia or Transnistria be next? They already are, especially the first one.

Is Crimea next? No. Ukraine, most unlike Georgia, is a state that controls its territory and its borders. There has been no “Crimean Autonomous Republic” that has existed under Russian occupation in the twenty years since the civil war that stitched Ukraine apart mostly at the Dnepr/Dneiper.

The Baltics? The Baltic States are European Union member-states and NATO member-states, unlike either Ukraine or Georgia, hugely increasing the risks to Russia. Trying to do something with them would risk triggering a Europe-wide war.

Poland or Finland? Um. No. Why would Russia be so stupid as to do such a thing?

Let’s see.
Russia claimed that it was working to maintain its territorial integrity by opposing the Chechen seperatists with overwhelming force that resulted in uncounted civilian casualties, opposed the disintegration of a Serbian-dominated Yugoslavia because the conflict was an internal matter, has resisted the division of other countries into ethnically based entities and now they’re upset with Georgia for acting to preserve their territorial integrity against ethnic Russian seperatists.
It’s interesting to note that hypocrisy remains an international maxim of statecraft and that Russia remains a master practitioner.

The clash between Russia and Georgia over South Ossetia, which escalated dramatically yesterday, in truth has more in common with the Falklands war of 1982 than it does with a cold war crisis. When the Argentine junta was basking in public approval for its bloodless recovery of Las Malvinas, Henry Kissinger anticipated Britain’s widely unexpected military response with the comment: “No great power retreats for ever.” Maybe today Russia has stopped the long retreat to Moscow which started under Gorbachev.
…Devoted to achieving Nato entry for Georgia, Saakashvili has sent troops to Iraq and Afghanistan – and so clearly felt he had American backing. The streets of the Georgian capital are plastered with posters of George W Bush alongside his Georgian protege. George W Bush avenue leads to Tbilisi airport. But he has ignored Kissinger’s dictum: “Great powers don’t commit suicide for their allies.” Perhaps his neoconservative allies in Washington have forgotten it, too. Let’s hope not.

Like Galtieri in 1982, Saakashvili faces a domestic economic crisis and public disillusionment. In the years since the so-called Rose revolution, the cronyism and poverty that characterised the Shevardnadze era have not gone away. Allegations of corruption and favouritism towards his mother’s clan, together with claims of election fraud, led to mass demonstrations against Saakashvili last November. His ruthless security forces – trained, equipped and subsidised by the west – thrashed the protesters. Lashing out at the Georgians’ common enemy in South Ossetia would certainly rally them around the president, at least in the short term.

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Seth, indeed. Of course, those who warned against the perception of Saakashvili as a democrat (as opposed to simply the leader of another faction of the ruling oligarchy) were accused of being “Kremlin apologists” (that one never gets old), if not outright Russian PR flaks.

6 civilians died this night under Georgian fire this night in Ossetia

“I think the rather obvious point is that had Georgia been a member of NATO, Russia would not have invaded.”

No — these treaty obligations yield to pragmatic decisions about whether to fulfil them or not at any point in time. I can’t see anyone in the US or UK or Germany fighting for South Ossetia no matter how many pieces of paper had been signed; if there was a real interest now, we’d be fighting for South Ossetia whether we had signed those bits of paper or not.

I just think it’s fascinating how quickly a gang of unconditional Russian patriots can be mobilised to invade the internet as soon as some shooting starts. Not that it’s different to what unconditional American patriots do – though I doubt many of them will be trying to splurge Russian-language sites with their views.

A small piece of advice – if you really can’t see how totally f*cked-up this situation is, and how wrong both sides are [or all 3/4/however many you consider to be involved], maybe you aren’t objective enough to be worth taking seriously.

The reason to oppose Russia in this matter is not because Saakashvili is some amazingly moral or humane person. The reason to oppose Russia is because it shouldn’t feel like it can annex bits of its neighbors arbitrarily and subvert the sovereignty of all its neighbors. Russia is a bully relative to all its neighbors and is one of the few countries actively trying to change borders all around it.

Well, you don’t get it. The situation at the current moment is as much Saakashvili’s responsibility. I mean, he invades a territory that was de facto independent for 16 years and perpetrates there a genocide which, if you take into account the number of people living in that territory, is like killing 10 millions of Americans in a single day. All this on the day of the Olympic opening ceremony. Was he provoked? Yes, he certainly was. But this still doesn’t change the fact that at this moment he’s as much a war criminal as Radovan Karadzic.
Is it any different from what Russia did in Chechnya? No, it’s not. Is it any different from what Serbs did in Kosovo? No, it’s not.

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I suppose everyone who lives out of Russia has only one point of view on events happening in South Ossetia at the moment, which is broadcast on TV channels.
I’d like you to get familiar with a russian channel, which broadcast in English, that is russiatoday(dot)com.
One has to know all the information about conflict from both points of view.

Russia struggles with humanitarian accident. Europe again chews American bubble gum and is silent having closed eyes

Russia is helping the civilian population in South Ossetia, which killed Georgian troops.Media Georgia and West dezinformiruyut people. Georgia has left Russians broadcast channels, there potomuchto speak the truth.Georgian troops fired on Russian convoys with medicines and humanitarian aid for the wounded.They kill Russian population, peacekeepers. And yet called brotherly people … They liar and murderer!That the U.S. to put up to the Georgian government not to go war against obedience. The Americans are selected to Russia from all sides and borders, they are not in their lezut delo.Snachala Avganistan, Vetnam, Iraq, in the Czech Republic want to consolidate their forces, then Ukraine, Georgia. Someone apparently paid the UN that they can not still understand what they want. All the efforts of Russian representatives to draw attention to the attack on Georgia Ossetia, no one takes seriously.The voice of truth to make silent! We live next to them, we know what happens. Georgia attacked at night, without declaring war, sleeping in the city, all bombed and now accuses Russia that she allegedly guilty. But it is not so! We should help reassure Georgia and its patient on the head prezidenda Saakashvili.Lyudi help the people of Ossetia, they have nothing left except the sorrow, all the devastation of their homes and families killed or sneeze ранены.Не callous.

People, Mass-Media deceiving you. Georgia has started bombardment of their own territories and broke their promise. There’re 1400 dead civilians in South Ossetia already. Mass-Media hide the whole fact. Scenes that contain military equipment also belong to Georgia.

The expansion of NATO was always a dangerous idea. The US should have encouraged a continued hopefully more democratic but still stable “Eastern Bloc.” Russia’s move to the right was a predictable response to US triumphalism. Putin has compared the Missile Shield a the Cuban crisis. He’s now talking about using Cuba as a refueling station, etc. etc.

Getting what you want: America should have acted to mitigate it’s status as the sole superpower. Instead the Pentagon studies world history to learn more about great empires of the past, and the government talks hypocritically about spreading democracy.
If the US had acted more wisely this might be playing out differently.

I don’t care who started this. A pox on all the houses. US, and western, moralizing under these circumstances is self-serving; and acting on it is self-defeating if not self-destructive.
And for all the US has been weakening the UN.

I would have thought that round about now is when we should start bombarding the White House, Downing Street, the Elysee Palace and the Chancellery with emails asking them to instruct their putative NATO allies in Georgia to withdraw their troops to allow a peacekeeping operation restore order under the leadership of the Russians but with participation from neutrals like, say, Finalnd, Ireland, India etc. While we’re all points scoring, people are dying.

You can get the South Ossetian viewpoint of the invasion here

I am sorry, but are you an idiot?

Russia has not invaded Ossetia, what are you talking about? Talk to people who managed to escape from the hell that was there last night, talk to those who used to live in the place that is now turned into ruins and talk to those who lost their families there (more than a thousand people were murdered by Georgians). Ask those people, whether their land was “invaded” and who invaded it.

As for CNN – look at who wrote this article, it was written by a georgian reporter – what’d you expect her to write? “Oh, my president has a huge ego and he wants to see daddy Bush fight with bad Russians, so, after half a year of lame provocations he finally found a way to piss Moscow off. Yay to that!”

Why did the West support Kosovo but not South Ossetia?

Mr. Edenbuam:

“The US should have encouraged a continued hopefully more democratic but still stable “Eastern Bloc.””

Even if the people involved didn’t want such?

hi. poor people. Your information is far from truth. You’re watching CNN or BBC. you don’t know all the truth… Do you think that it is wright to kill citizens who are not millitary people??? Is it wright to kill children??? 1600 citizens are dead already and 1000 are ingured… is it good??? It only ego of mr. Saakashvili… One word killed 500 children!!for what??? For taking ticket to NATO????????????? Is idiocy. Well… you may think that I’m too kriticall… but… I KNOW!!! Nobody in Georgia whanted to start a war excepted their president. He will go under tribunal, cause his people hate him. Hi ruind all what they tried to do all the time in one moment… well.. I’m shoked of your myopia…

By the way, the fact that you trust CNN as an unbiased news source on this is kind of cute.

I have to mention that Russia performs it’s obligations to keep piece in South Ossetia. This is not an expansion. If Russia wanted to expand why then wait for Georgia to kill civilians? And as I recall Russia didn’t break any international laws, the country has full rights to send reinforcements to own piece keepers.
Georgian piece keepers should keep piece, but what they did? Started to fire russian piece keepers. How is that?
Even more if Georgia just wants to retake consitutional order in South Ossetia why they would kill so many civilians 20 years ago when this all started? It is clearly fascism acts over Ossetia, the same point with Abkhazia.
Why do you think people would start separation? They would never do so, unless Georgia starts to kill.

Russian Citizen, if you believe that the Russian ruling class cares at all about the lives of the people of South Ossetia or Abkhasia, then you really need to re-think things. They couldn’t care less. This is about a strategic conflict between Russia and NATO, with Saakashvili foolishly thinking he could take advantage. The people are just pawns in this, to be moved around as the rulers see fit.

And what concerns Chechenia- they were almost 10 years independent de facto… how did they use their freedom? genocide of non-chechenians, forays, raids to capture slaves form other Caucasian countries… And all of that was happening BEFORE “The first Chechenian war”

Randy Macdonald,

I don’t trust in the good judgment of the Russian government. They are clearly trying to annex these parts of Georgia. Note that Abkhazia is currently attacking Georgian forces in the Kodori gorge almost certainly using the Russian military. That’s another provocation. If this kind of action is accepted, why wouldn’t Russia just stage more provocations in other areas to get what it wants? You think it would be stupid for Russia to try this in Ukraine (for example), but just because something is stupid doesn’t mean it won’t be attempted.

I don’t have a problem with ethnic minorities gaining their own states (see Kosovo). I do have a problem with imperial powers annexing parts of other countries that aren’t even populated by their own dominant ethnic groups. If Russia is so concerned with the fate of the Ossetians, it should let North and South Ossetia unite as a single independent country. But we all know that Russia would never do that.

That we here did not discuss there is one truth. Innocent inhabitants children, old men, women sit 3 day in bombproof shelters. The Georgian military men do not allow to them to leave a zone of operations. Here this most important from this that is told everywhere.

Well… it’s not flood. I saw all that people from Osetia!!! They are betrayed by their goverment… it’s too hard to explain all… you should see it by yourself(((( http://www.ossetia.ru

franck well.. you are wright only in several moments – Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania their goverment worked for nazi…not all.. but their was… but Belarus, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kirgizistan, Moldova, and Mongolia – they are our friends now for a long times. now they all tring to help S. O. So, please ,stop it))) Your coutries will do the same things if you will be in the same situation)

Franck:

“I don’t trust in the good judgment of the Russian government. They are clearly trying to annex these parts of Georgia.”

Retrain as puppets, sure. Annex? I don’t see that, not yet at least.

“Note that Abkhazia is currently attacking Georgian forces in the Kodori gorge almost certainly using the Russian military. That’s another provocation. ”

… or it’s an entirely expected result of an attack on an Abkhazian ally in a widening interethnic war.

“If this kind of action is accepted, why wouldn’t Russia just stage more provocations in other areas to get what it wants?”

Russia doesn’t have the same leverage in (say) Crimea or the Donetsk basin or … There are no parastates operating on Ukrainian territory, never mind in Estonia or elsewhere.

“You think it would be stupid for Russia to try this in Ukraine (for example), but just because something is stupid doesn’t mean it won’t be attempted.”

I’d be suspicious, if only because the same separate identity and autonomous Russian-backed government that exists in the Georgian regions doesn’t exist elsewhere. Iff Russia did try something in the Crimea, that would be a notable break with policy established under Yeltsin and even under Putin.

“I don’t have a problem with ethnic minorities gaining their own states (see Kosovo). I do have a problem with imperial powers annexing parts of other countries that aren’t even populated by their own dominant ethnic groups. If Russia is so concerned with the fate of the Ossetians, it should let North and South Ossetia unite as a single independent country. But we all know that Russia would never do that.”

I take it this isn’t addressed to me, right?

For the record, I’ve never said that

Barbara:

“Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania their goverment worked for nazi…not all.. but their was… ”

Considering that the Soviet Union had invaded and occupied those countries, and were considerably more brutal than the Nazis (twice as many Estonians died in the relatively brief Soviet occupations of Estonia than under the Nazis) such wasn’t an unforeseeable event. hitler or Stalin?

Somebody of that people are not reading comments to the end and just screaming their opinions. It is not just foolishly, it is even funny.

Words like “That means Russia reserves the right to invade these countries…” means only that you are “floating in the river of desinformation” and no anything else. You believe only in the words that you heard and do not construct your opinion. WE ARE NOT GETTING PLEASURE WHEN OUR SOLDIERS ARE DYING! “Peacekeeping” like that – it is not the best way to solve the problem, but YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENING (and we too) and NOBODY WHO TALKING YOU (us) KNOWS.

It is very easily to understand that government and media of each distort the facts in its interests. Your media says you “Russians are bad” and shows you pictures of “Russian jets bombing civilians” and you believe in it. Try to use your mind without of any external sources of information and any emotions, please! It seems that for the long time all of the world wants to see Russians in some awful situation and when it happening all of the world are glad. Now it is happening!

Barbara:

“This is the same I wrote. )))) Stalin and Hitler were like siam twins)))
”

Actually you didn’t write that. What you said, in reply to Franck’s contention that South Ossetia might cause Russia to intervene in a variety of post-Soviet countries where there were large Russian communities, was the below:

“you are wright only in several moments – Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania their goverment worked for nazi…not all..”

You didn’t make any attempt to equate Hitler with Stalin. More to the point, by separating the Baltic States from the other countries you named as Rusdsian friends (“Belarus, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kirgizistan, Moldova, and Mongolia”) seemed to suggest that the Baltic States and perhaps the unnamed Ukraine might also be plausible subjects for Russian intervention because of their highly divergent experiences of the Nazi/Soviet interludes and Russia.

120 – fair enough. Let me rephrase: the governments and their defenders are drowning in a sea of double standards. We’ve even seen them stressed right here (but, oddly enough, always pointing in one direction).

CNN and BBC did report on the start of the fighting, i.e., before the Russian intervention. If you think otherwise, you’re just wrong.

They’re both Americans with German wives, they both have worked in the Balkans and Caucasus, they both blog on Fistful, but they’re different people. Honest.

The Telegraph is reporting that Georgia was given a nod and a wink by the USA, on condition that it was all sorted out within 48 hours. Now things have gone pear-shaped the Georgians have basically been dumped.

Serves ‘ em right.

Vanessa Kachadurian
“Sorry, I know the real truth and all of you didn’t even know about the CASPIAN OIL PIPELINE.”
How much funds per year Georgia can get for transit of Caspian oil?
And how much funds Georgia wasted in 2004-2008 for preparation to this war?
(Some evaluations give us about 1.5 billions USD or more).
Is this project have payback period at all, or it is just a part of much more big game?
Georgia is agricultural country with about 17% of unemployed people and only 9% of employed in industry. If Georgia’s existing political «elite» have few of brains and conscience, they must raise welfare of Georgian people. But they want war. They unleash war with inhuman artillery and rocket bombardment of civil town Tskhinval. Nobody can predict consequences of this act of inhuman genocide. Nobody can predict extent of escalation of this conflict. I think, people of Georgia demand another political elite, not supported by west.

Well, this situation os beneficial, first of all, for the United States…
They’ve always been trying to defame Russia, and, well, they seem to succeed in doing that now.
Most of the population doesn’t care much about the reasons of this war or whatever (if most of the world now thanks to the mass media is sure, that it was the United Stated, that won World War 2), they are ready to accept what is shown on the Global TV.
Do they people from Ossetia, who lost their homes, their relatives…everything just in a single night? Do they show, that Georgian soldiers are killing women, kids, and…Russian peace-makers (whos main goal is to STOP the agression in OSSETIA, not attacking Georgia). And, for sure, if the US is supporting Georgia, why should they show the real situation? The easiest and the most effective thing here is to turn the things upside down and to blame Russia.

USA is not going to support Giorgia. The army is tied up in Afganistan and Iraq. All is left are National Guards. Unless mobilization, no USA there. NATO iz not going to to anything without USA. I say Russia crash Giorgia. Kick them in their a$$es and sand them back to push sheeps trhrough the fence (from behind).

Nitpick: the Doug in Tblisi is Doug Merrill, not Doug Muir.

Yes I heard this news too that the birthplace of Stalin was bombed. Did not say what kind of damage was inflictied on the town.