I think I’ve mentioned before that the Center of which I am director produces a podcast called Ethics and Education which is about… ethics and education. Just to be clear: the producer/director/voice artist/supremo is Carrie Welsh, and my involvement is mainly as a sounding board about topics and how to approach them, and doing whatever she asks for any given episode.[1] I’ll link to a few episodes over the next few weeks. This week: we recently produced an episode about sex education (via spotify; via our website, and here’s a taster on headliner), featuring the authors of a new book about the ethics of sex education by Lauren Bialystok and Lisa Andersen called Touchy Subject. It’s a terrific book, in a series of topical books each co-authored by a historian of education and a philosopher of education. They cover the (often surprising) history of sex education in the US, and discuss much more subtly than in most discussions both the values that ought to lie behind sex education and how to make trade offs with parental interests. You shouldn’t use the podcast as an excuse not to read the book, but it does stand alone well: you can tell that our student producers had a lot of fun finding the vox pops (going up to people cold in the street and asking them how they learned about sex turns out to yield interesting results), and Lauren’s and Lisa’s discussion is genuinely illuminating. Feel free to recommend it to your friends.
[1] I emphasize this because I really think the podcast is excellent, and want it to be clear that the only credit I deserve for that is that I helped hire Carrie and fund extremely talented undergraduates to work with her on it.
{ 16 comments }
steven t johnson 08.04.24 at 1:09 pm
“…discuss much more subtly than in most discussions both the values that ought to lie behind sex education..” Would “tactfully” be more apt here? Given the widespread sex education by TikTok etc. and internet porn and old school word of mouth from other kids, it’s not clear how subtlety doesn’t privilege parental denialism about real sexual activity in middle schools and high schools.
“…and how to make trade offs with parental interests.” On the other hand, a thorough analysis of what constitutes legitimate parental interests would be fascinating. Making trade offs with illegitimate parental interests is not good, in principle, no more than making trade offs with illegitimate state interests. Or so I think. Governor Gleichschaltung in Florida champions “parental interests,” after all.
One consideration may be to add an education economist, given how much discussion of all education focuses on the monetary interest of education in general? Sex education is simply part of the whole curriculum after all. When discussing the parental interest the necessity (as some perceive it) of going to parochial or private schooling is a necessary part of it.
SusanC 08.04.24 at 3:24 pm
I am an old person. So old, that when I was a kid you didn’t get Internet access until you were at university (if then), and, the Internet of then was a rather different thing.
I do wonder (/worry) how much of this debate over sex education has become entirely irrelevant when the kids can just look stuff up on the Internet. (Or, soon, ask their AI boyfriend/AI girlfriend/AI talking pink pony whatever question they want).
Now: You should know that pornographic movies are not a realistic depiction of typical sex.
Soon: You should know that the kind of sex you are currently having with AI Rainbow Dash is not a realistic depiction of a relationship with an actual human being.
See also: the trailer/advert for friend.com
SusanC 08.04.24 at 3:36 pm
P.S. Yes, I’ve seen the movie “Her”, and I’m also aware of the range of characters currently available on AI gf/bf services. I pick Rainbow Dash (a really available option by the way) in order to gesture at what might be available without violating Crooked Timber community standards by describing the more transgressive options you can pick. The kids are, presumably, already accessing these kind of services.
Kids: Ask your grandmother what life was like before we had widespread Internet access.
SusanC 08.04.24 at 3:53 pm
P.P.S. The firend.com advert would be entirely fine if it were a dystopian science fiction movie in the tradition of “Blade Runner” or “Her”. The fact that it is, apparently, a product you will soon be able to actually buy is rather more concerning. (Like if Blade Runner had ended with an order form for you to buy your own replicant).
Presumably, this will need to be somehow explained to the kids who are about to encounter this technology.
MisterMr 08.04.24 at 11:49 pm
When I was a kid, there was no internet, but I did read a p0rn comic when I was in primary school (that is, around 10). It shocked me a lot.
I suppose kids today might find dubious depictions of sex a bit earlier, but I don’t know how much earlier.
Tm 08.05.24 at 7:54 am
SusanC; why and in what sense would the internet make sex education irrelevant?
SusanC 08.05.24 at 10:42 am
You might well think that the Internet is not a reliable source of sex education, and try to provide the kids with something better.
But attempting to keep teenagers innocent. e.g. of sex, or of the fact that transgender people exist, ceased to be a viable option some time ago.
Still room for Futurama’s “Don’t Date Robots”:
Carrie Welsh 08.05.24 at 1:05 pm
We also made this teaching guide, with a readers theater we wrote with our students, and which we’ve enjoyed presenting at conferences: https://ethicsandeducation.wceruw.org/curricula/touchy-subject-thinking-better-about-sex-education/
Harry 08.05.24 at 4:18 pm
The teaching guide, and the podcast itself, address lots of the issues raised here. Eg: if you think sex ed is about more than ‘just the facts’ or ‘just the plumbing’ then the internet isn’t sufficient (and, even if you think it is just about the facts and plumbing, and know how vulnerable teenagers are to misinformation and disinformation then the internet doesn’t suffice); the book carefully discusses how much legitimacy to accord to parental interests (I’ve written a book about that too); the authors are sensitive to the ideal/non-ideal issues that the teaching guide takes up, especially around how to handle parental demands for opt-outs.
Tm 08.05.24 at 4:46 pm
Still not grasping your point SusanC. If we could rely on the internet to educate children, not only sex education but all of school would be irrelevant.
SusanC 08.05.24 at 6:29 pm
Having been young once, even if it was a very long time ago. I’d like to mention that the kids themselves may be embarrassed by sex education, even if their parents are the sort of liberals who are fine with it.
Along the lines of …
“Adults do what? That’s gross! You mean a boy might want to do that with me. Barf.”
“Ummm … are you really going to talk about menstruation in class?”
Now, admittedly, one tends to get over this by, I guess, age 12, probably younger.
=====
Now, as a person who knows about tantric versions of Vajrayana Buddhism: “You know, the way an irrational ick prevents people talking about menstrual blood has been used by Buddhist women philosophers for at least a thousand years as the go-to example of how irrationality gets in the way.” We should get over ourselves already.
Alan White 08.06.24 at 5:26 am
Perhaps the biggest thing is to normalize human biological and sociological functions as just those. An anecdote:
During lunches at my campus way back when a woman amongst us mostly males one day protested that our sports talk excluded her because she had zero interest in it. She said, hey let’s talk about some thing that might interest me, like menstrural cycles. I said–quite honestly I might add–sure, I’d be very interested in that. And–I meant it. It’s just human experience, and while sports stuff has some interesting sides, so does anything else that people experience. To this day she says she was startled by my response, and its apparent honesty. And it was not just apparent–I guess I’ve always been someone who accepts human experience in all aspects as something worthy of discussion–not just toleration or eye-rolled acceptance. We are sexual beings among all else and all aspects of that need airing when parties feel it’s appropriate.
Tm 08.07.24 at 7:25 am
“the kids themselves may be embarrassed by sex education”
Possibly. It obviously depends on how it is done. In my time (also long ago), sex education was less embarassing as it was almost clinical with little regard for the questions young people might actually have. It doesn’t have to be that way and anecdotally things have changed. In schools in my region it is common to invite external educators specialized on sex education into classes and they do separate sessions with boys and girls. Seems to work well and kids are really interested and open up.
Moz of Yarramulla 08.08.24 at 4:47 am
It might be worth mentioning in future that the “our website” link is the one with the transcript, and that the others are very promiscuous in who they tell about your watching/listening habits.
But this gets complicated when schools and parents don’t trust each other.
This is a really important part of the ethics discussion. When is it ok to override kids, parents, administrators, legislators, others? (ideally not all at the same time!)
One of the cliche ‘liberal values’ is that consent is something women give to men, and that men override when it’s withheld. This is both obviously untrue (to some people) and very damaging (and not just to the people it’s not true for). Sadly some ‘sex educators’ believe it and teach it, and not just the Dworkin-McKinnon school of educators. Even talking about it is difficult because it’s become a right wing talking point (in a small subset of right wing circles) and thus it often raises hackles when mentioned. Much as ENM/polyamory does (and as with consent, it’s difficult for both liberal and repressive sides for different reasons… you can’t have biblical marriage without at least the non-monogamy part).
But if you want really challenging, and very directly pointing at difficult behaviors, talk about negotiating less consensual sex and relationships. When, and how, is it ok to agree that HE is the head of the household and SHE is the obedient helpmeet? Or, you know, vice versa. Can that ever be ethical, or even legal?
Moz of Yarramulla 08.08.24 at 4:51 am
Just as a practical question, how does someone teach kids that it’s ok, even sometimes required, to disobey authority figures like the one that’s teaching them that it’s ok to disobey?
Not just the ‘you don’t have to have sex with teacher’ version, the ‘you don’t have to beat the shit out of the annoying kid even if the teacher says it’s ok’ or, bob help you, ‘you don’t have to pretend to be Christian just because your parents will starve you’. Consent based parenting is difficult even for people who practice consent-based living, dealing with a child who’s been exposed to it can be a very rude shock and might get some kids killed. So… when and how should kids be exposed to the idea that their consent matters?
SusanC 08.08.24 at 1:05 pm
The JD Vance couch discourse is proving more enlightening than what they actually told us in 6thy grade…
Sixth grade Susan raises her hand in class. “I get that Mr. Vance did not actually tell the couch story in hbs book, and its just one of those stupid stories they make up on the Internet. But … the way the boys are all laughing at it … am I right in thinking that like, at least half of them have, in fact, done that with a couch?”
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