The Minuteman Project

“The the best they can hope for is that the people who show up for this aren’t nutters who want nothing more than to dress up in camo gear and take pot-shots at people.”

Whew! I was worried for a second there!

Unless you are in the small minority that believes in open borders, why is there so much hostility to the Minuteman project? Is it the sin of white-men taking action against those of color coupled with the unpardonable sin of private people doing what the government should be doing? Surely no one can approve of the current state of illegal immigration?

It’s great that jet has seen through all those disclaimers on the site about the absence of any racial motivation.

Oh, bull. “From your response I’m guessing I struck a nerve.” Well, okay: from your belligerance, I’m guessing you’re a complete idiot.

See how that works? Are we having a productive conversation yet? Should I mention your mother?

Keith,
You’re cracking me up. I come here and see 2 out of 3 posts expressing desire for harm to come to the Minutement without any explanation. Crazy talk, right? And then I ask why the hate. I then get John’s hasty conclusion and complete disreguard for an honest debate, which you are giving a pass. I respond in kind, and you’re all over me.

And sadly (although not always), this is the best liberal site I’ve found that even comes close to this “generous” level of debate :P It is quite something to get to interact with the most reasoned liberal minds to be found on the net.

Keith,
Because I can’t, for the life of me, see how this is anything but sarcasm:
“It’s great that jet has seen through all those disclaimers on the site about the absence of any racial motivation.”

There is quite a bit of thought that says Western Civ owes the rest of the world quite a bit for harms done in the past. I pondered that the hate pointed at the Minutemen was somehow connected. John gave a less then conducive answer. I try to cooperate here, and adjusted my level of debate to his.

Some or many of the volunteers are supposedly ex-military, so I’d imagine they’re familiar with managing the desert from first-hand experience or at least from reading. And, they’ll be with people like Simcox who live there.

There’s a round-up of today’s news reports about the MMP here.

Some men get together and draw some arbitrary lines on some maps.
Some other men draw their own arbitrary lines on their own maps.
In the areas of the maps that are sparsely peopled there’s some back and forth about what’s what, but that all gets worked out eventually, after some killing and some arguing and some more killing and arguing, and then the lines get formalized and become legally binding.
Rule worship. The sanctity of the rules over and above what the rules were invented to protect.
Not land, not life, not the living that gets done on the land, but the imaginary division that exists only in that abstract place where the map is real and the land is merely a colored-in representation on a piece of paper.
I pledge allegiance to cartography.

“to look for Mexicans to kick around.”

To report to the border patrol, who at least theoretically are supposed to arrest and deport Mexicans, if they’re found in the US without having crossed the border legally.

Alex: you live in, I’d imagine, Yorkshire. How long did you live in the southwestern U.S. then? It would be helpful if you and juke moran would now redo your comments, putting first-hand knowledge of this issue as well as historical knowledge of invasions and borders throughout the past several hundred years and knowledge of the larger issues involved in massive illegal immigration.

Here are just two factors you could blend into your analysis:
1. Why do you think Bush is so much in favor of either massive illegal immigration or massive immigration via his guest worker plan?
2. Do you think Mexico’s second most valuable export being their own citizens has something to do with any of this? Their take from remittances is 80% of that from oil.

‘Their’ take?
TLB – rather than the Southwest, why don’t you try spending some time in the real world.
I’ve worked twelve hour days in the fields alongside illegals from Mexico and points south. The one unifying characteristic of all those I met was their “Indian-ness”. Something that’s going to be missing from your view of things, I bet.
The abstract realm of finance and cartography isn’t peripheral, it’s the source, the cause of a lot of human misery, though it does benefit an increasingly obvious minority.
But what’s real, and what will remain after the money vanishes back into the black hole it came out of, is the land. That was my point.
The Minutemen are just the latest iteration of rule-worshipping drones who put the ad hoc code above the thing it was invented to preserve and protect.
Arbitrarily dividing people the way borders do, especially the US borders, isn’t even practical, as anyone who’s spent time on the ground near them will tell you. Oh they function in a broad general sense, but not well; and in the long run what we lose in these false divisions outweighs what they protect entirely.

Oh, I see. If the Amabassador to Mexico says that Bush is still pushing it, then he is? If he says it to the Mexican head of state in a special conference, then he is? Hmm. Where is the political action? What he has gotten the GOP to work on in committee?

Looking at your blog makes me ill.

As it turns out, teh Washington Times reports that less than 100 people showed up – they were outnumbered by police, which is always the mark of a demo that hasn’t lived up to expectations by a large factor.

The illegal aliens ,over ten million today , will help break this great country . Freedom is not free !! Many of us have fought in wars to protect our freedom and the freedoms of others around the world . It is shameless that we have not stopped the illegals , shameless for those who hire them , shameless to our government to continue to allow this great threat from those who seek to kill the infidels in America ! This is not about racism , this is to protect your family and mine . To protect what we vision as the greatest nation on this earth . Too many have fought and died to preserve this great land . We all need to help !!!!!!

I believe we ought to have as open a border as possible, so that we can concentrate on the real troublemakers crossing the border. As it sits, it’s very difficult to get legal status here, and usually invloves thousands of dollars if you can obtain a legal basis. I was born in houston, raised in austin, and married a woman from Nicaragua who had been here for only 6 months. It took us 2 years and 4000 dollars to get her green card. During the time she was illegal she worked and paid taxes for social security she’ll never see. I don’t feel that we as a nation of immigrants can decide to slam the door shut now, after we are here. We’ve done that before, with the Chinese in the 1830’s and 40’s and the irish during the potato famine, the jews in the 1930’s and 40’s. We have now condemned those policies as rascist etc. in our history books. Why should the mexicans/central americans be any different? I also have about 5 years experience as a fast food restaurant manager, and without fail my most dependable, hard working employees were my immigrants. Most suburban high school kids that worked for me lasted only 1 to 3 months. My mexican/central american’s lasted as long as 5 years…

“I am for open boarders with Mexico.”

Me too. So when is Mexico going to allow me to directly own land, and invest in their oil and power industries? When will they give my children free quality medical care and education? When will I not have to pay corrupt officials to run a business? When will everything be in English? I too am for open borders, which also means Mexico needs to end all this discrimination against Americans.

Once again, I don’t know whether Keith Ellis doesn’t know what he’s talking about or isn’t telling what he knows. In any case, there are several amnesty/guest worker bills currently proposed. Two leading bills are AgJobs and the Dream Act.

The latter would give illegal aliens discounted college educations. Out-of-state U.S. citizens would pay the full price.

The interested reader should check out those bills and look at Bush’s position on them and other immigration-related bills. He is almost always on the same side as the ACLU, the Ford Foundation-sponsored MALDEF, the CPUSA, and the corrupt Mexican oligarchy. And, he’s on the opposite side from 75% or more of U.S. citizens.

As for #30:
You tell us that 20 or so people are great and they work hard. Does that mean you’re willing to vouch for the other 10-20 million illegal aliens in the U.S.? Would you, for instance, financially sponsor those 10-20 million? Would you guarantee that as a bloc they won’t be a danger to the U.S.?

And, would you be for open borders if, say, Russia did the same things Mexico does?

If Russia taught their schoolchildren that Alaska was part of Siberia and greater Russia and that it rightfully belonged to Russia, would you support open borders?

What if Russia had an explicit policy to send people to the U.S. in order to increase their control over our immigration system? What if Russia pimped the U.S. to other countries, encouraging them to send illegal aliens as well? What if Vladimir Putin said he was going to use his Russian consulates in the U.S. to “propagate militant activities” in order to get a “migration accord” passed? (Use google to see what I’m referring to.)

I guess there’s nothing we could do. After all, it would be racist to resist Russia’s expansionist plans, right?

I find it appaling that any of you would label the Minuteman Project as “vigilantes”.

For the UK folk – we have a Bill of Rights (the begining of our Constitution). The first 2 ammendments allow the exact freedoms that the MMP are exercising. The Bill of Rights was added (and those first 2 particuarly) to ensure that Amercians would never have to face the tyranny that their forefathers did in England.

It is a legal right to carry a gun in Arizona. The MMP has many reasons to carry a gun aside from using them to shoot Mexicans.

I challenge ANY of you to go to the MMP website and find ONE racist comment or incidence of inflammatory rhetoric.

The only racist or inflammatory rhetoric I have heard so far is from you LIBS (vigilantes, racists, yahoo’s, rednecks, “Hee Haw” fans, weekend warriors, migrant hunters, nutters, etc.)

In all honesty, the Left scares the hell out of me. YOU folks are the real “whack” jobs.

Undocumented Border Patrol Officers is what the Minutemen are.

Raise the minumum wage to a living wage and American citizens would then do the work.

I am very skeptical about this whole “minute man” thing, and I will tell you why, if I don’t get off the subject like I always do…

A bit about myself so you can see where my point of view comes from. I am Mexican; I am American (1st from the father, 2nd from the mother). Lived in Mexico about 25 years, and have lived in Texas for the remaining 5. I am in the U.S. legally, I married my 7 year long relationship sweetheart (She is Mexican). I will share with you all the complications we went through to get her to come live with me (married) in the good ol’ U.S. of A. But first, allow me to rant a little bit…

People in this country love to keep things in a nice little “simple package”, they love their stereotypes, they love their icons, they love to feel like victims. Living in Mexico, I never referred to someone by their race. Since I’ve live here, every time people speak about someone they must follow the name with “a black guy” a “white chick” a “Mexican guy” (Mexican of course to anyone with brown skin that speaks Spanish), if you are light skinned as I am it’s: “that’s funny, you don’t look Mexican”.

My wife and I, both are professionals; both of our families are what you could consider middle to upper-middle class in Mexico. It was easy for me to come to the U.S. because I am a Citizen and could. I sadly left Mexico because being a Licensed Architect (in Mexico) I would have been paid about $5.00/hour (and that is if I actually found work as an Architect and cost of life in Mexico is close to what it is in the U.S.). The same would come from my wife (Communications Major). We spent about $3,000 dollars through legal fees, plane tickets, etc (she had to fly to Ciudad Juarez (one of the most dangerous city in Mexico if you are a young woman) to have her tests done, get screened by the F.B.I., etc Go through several interviews. Not to mention that she got her tourist visa denied 2 times when she was trying to visit me. (but oh sweet irony, 1 or 2 of the 911 hijackers received their visa, or green card, in the mail after they were dead, what an effective immigration system).

And I could be having a totally different standpoint saying: “If we did it the -right way- every other Mexican should –immigrate- to the U.S. same way we did”. But the truth of the matter is doing it the “right way” is impossible for your average Mexican, and I am talking about 99% of Mexicans who don’t have fiancés that have American Citizenship. American Citizenship is near impossible to attain being 100% Mexican and not having American family.

You see my people every day, they wash your cars, they clean your office, they serve you your super sized McCrap; the company you work for probably hires many of them (through a subcontractor of course, to not have blood on their hands if they are illegal). The vast majority of these people are good hardworking people, who live bunched up in a 1 person apartment in groups of 6 or so, making ends meet and pushing forward.

Just recently was talking to a kid that works cleaning the office where I work and he was telling me how he works 2 (fulltime) jobs that are 40 miles apart, lives with 4 more guys (one is his brother), left his Girlfriend behind (most likely to never see again), and is just trying to make a living.

Now back on the Minute Man Project… Just today on Democracy Now! (http://www.democracynow.org) I heard a debate between Mike McGarry, media liaison for the Minuteman Project and Jennifer Allen, executive director of the Border Action Network. Mike McGarry kept referring to the “illegal immigrants” as an “invading force”. Knowing what I know, being what I am, and thinking of who I’ve met, I can tell you the problem starts with people like Mike, who are supporting this nationalist bigotry. I’m sure some of them probably don’t have their eyes open wide enough and mean no harm, but harm comes from this mentality.

The problem will not be solved by the RIGHT calling them “illegal aliens” and the LEFT calling them “immigrants”, because these are people, the problem is in the laws (not in semantics); the problem should be addressed by opening your minds, reforming the laws. Mexico needs the U.S. the U.S. needs Mexico, it’s that simple.

People speak of an “Illegal Alien Invasion” … well this country was founded by “Illegal Aliens” who systematically murdered the LEGITIMATE inhabitants of North America, brought slaves from Africa, and eventually colonized what is now called “The United States of America” Meanwhile the Spaniards were doing exactly the same, in other parts North, Central, and South America. It’s time to turn talk radio and FOX News off, and to start behaving like human beings.

yes, the liberal left is a wacko haven.

the Minutemen are stepping up and doing the right thing. They are not there to harm anyone, only protect their country, which they have every right to do. Has anyone heard the story of one of their first “victims?” An illegal who they tended to with food and water as he stumbled out of the desert… giving an illegal food and water? boy, what “vigilantes” they are!

i agree with the above poster who said open borders should work both ways… when i can go into mexico and own land, get free medical care and schooling, and force everyone around me to use english to accomadate me, then we’ll be square.

i’m not anti-immigrant (in fact i can’t remember the last time i had a girlfriend who had english as her first language), but the idea that border security = racism is silly liberal gibberish.

the minutemen are doing us all a service. even those of you who seem to hate America.

Onr post makes it seem as if their is no racism in Mexico. From my own experience living and studying there I can tell you that is not so. People of Spanish decent discriminate against the Indios. I’m noy saying racism in US is ok, but don’t fool yourself into thinking it doesn’t happen everywhere.

I am happy about the MMP, because I see the negative impact illegal immigration is having in California.

According to some statistics medical care , education, and the impact on our prison systems costs each household in California around $1100 per year. While the businesses are profitting from cheap labor the taxpayers are paying to subsidize them. Big surprise.

As a teacher, I see the negative impact of illegal immigration on our schools and children. A teacher usually teaches to the middle of the class. What do you think an influx of uneducated and in many cases almost nonlingual children (many are not literate in Spanish or English)does to where the middle of the class lies. How about the mandated 40 minutes of ESL instruction in some districts? What do you think the other kids are missing out on during this time?

Its too bad we didn’t help Mexico build itself up like we did for Europe with the Marshall Plan. Maybe we wouldn’t have these problems.

Invading hordes of wave after wave of illegal criminal border crossers, drug smugglers and other various criminals has gone unabated far too long. The American public has finally taken a stand. Open border supporters should think twice about the consequences this invasion tolls upon the taxpayers and environment.

Billions of dollars are leaking out of the country to Mexico. This practice has become Mexico’s number one industry surpassing PeMex revenues in 2004.

Unabated and uncontrolled immigration brings a plethora of problems that is overwhelming the ability of taxpayers to continue to absorb the costs.

Human devaluation in Mexico and the increasing corruption has allowed over 10% of their entire population to invade the US. That 10% total represents more than 30% of able bodied males. A giant vacuum of brain power and talent has left the country. The damage done to Mexico through this practice only makes those staying feel more impoverished.

Unchecked population growth Worldwide creates a never ending pool of new invaders who must escape third world nations. This rapid population explosion in the world does not necessitate responsibility on the US’ part. Self preservation of our nation, our way of life and the quality we have built on the backs of hard working Americans is no reason to open the floodgates for illegals.

There are no jobs Americans will not do, this is a farce. We allow ourselves to believe this is a reason to let millions of invaders cross but a farce it remains.

It may be next to impossible for most would be immigrants to come to this country due to the legalities but that does not make illegal criminal border crossing ok. We have risen the number of legal immigrants over and over. This is our law, this is what we must uphold and support. For every illegal criminal border crosser, there is someone who qualifies being denied.

The US should and must: Increase Border Control and seal off all illegal means of entry. Enforce Immigration law. Identify, Arrest and Deport every single illegal criminal border crosser in our country no matter how long they have been here. Allow local police to enforce immigration law everywhere. Increase interior immigration enforcement 100fold.
Stop Anchor Baby practices. Identify employers who hire illegals and fine them out of business if they continue the practice. Then and only then will a worker program be enforceable.

HOHOCHI