Chris’s post about “the ENO production of Rheingold”:https://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/001476.html reminded me of why I don’t know anything about Wagner’s music. When I was a graduate student, I invested a substantial chunk of my income in a pair of season tickets to the Met, with half-decent seating. You got a set program of opera over the course of the year. We had a great time. Then came the Wagner week. I forget which opera it was. Die Walküre I think — anyway, the one where the guy stumbles into the forest hut, falls in love with the girl, and upon discovering she’s his sister sings, delightedly, “Such wonderful news! Our children will therefore be of the purest blood!” or words to that effect.
As soon as we got to our seats we knew something was wrong.
We’d gotten to know some of the faces in the surrounding rows, but that night the crowd was different from usual. Everyone was dressed up very severely. The guy sitting next to me looked like a young Nietzsche. The guy sitting next to him looked like Nietzsche when he had tertiary syphilis. (I think he was the first one’s father.) Three elderly women all in seemingly identical black outfits sat in front of us. I’d been warned to expect this sort of thing with Wagner, so I wasn’t too put out. But just before the overture began, a heavyset man sat down behind us. He had some sort of respiratory disease. It required him to inhale in huge, wet gulps. He would then make a low groaning noise, pause momentarily, and exhale in a sequence of rapid belches of descending pitch and increasing duration. He did this without fail throughout the entire first act, without regard for the vicious shushes he got from me, never mind the much more intimitating glares of Nietzsche _pere et fils_, and he showed every appearance of continuing until the final curtain fell, or he died.
We fled at the first interval. And that was it for me and Wagner. That gurgling, gasping, eructating sound appears in my inner ear whenever I hear a scrap of _leitmotif_, faint but inescapable, like a tubercular Glenn Gould being drowned in the bath.
{ 39 comments }
Kevin Buggy 03.09.04 at 12:16 am
Kieran,
Another good reason to eschew Wagner is that Wagner was Hitler’s favorite.
K
ionfish 03.09.04 at 12:33 am
Hitler was a vegetarian too; a good reason to eschew vegetarianism?
Robert Green 03.09.04 at 12:36 am
yes, another very good reason to eschew vegetarianism, along with creeping sanctimony (that the medical term, i don’t know the latin) and general bad-smelledness.
wagner is worth avoiding for the incredible level of pomp and pretension–you can leave the politics out of it.
Kieran Healy 03.09.04 at 12:40 am
It would be great if this thread could be less about Hitler and more about the belching.
Dan Simon 03.09.04 at 12:50 am
I’m told that belching is better than it sounds.
nnyhav 03.09.04 at 1:40 am
“Occasionally the pain began during a meal, and Hitler, obviously greatly distressed, would leave the table. He also complained of abdominal distension accompanied by duller pain and frequent belching.”
David 03.09.04 at 2:03 am
Also a good reason to avoid China (the belching, et al, not the Hitler thing). Good veggie food, though.
bob mcmanus 03.09.04 at 2:29 am
Got it. Wagner makes you belch. Will avoid Meistersinger and ladies in horned helmuts.
msg 03.09.04 at 3:07 am
In some parts of the world, the process of inseminating maternal animals with the sperm of their offspring who have demonstrated desirable qualities, through artifical or the usual means, and vice-gender-versa, is called line-breeding.
In humans it’s called incest, and the common assumption is it only produces puddles of dysfunctional mutancy.
Fact is it does, or can, purify the blood, in the sense of strengthening gene traits.
The fact is, also, it’s far more common in our shared histories than most of us are comfortable recognizing. It isn’t all about hemophilia and retardation.
Feeling queasy yet?
–
As far as Wagner and belching, I have the same aversion to the sight of split-pea soup, from being abused at a babysitter’s when I was 7 and ill with undiagnosed flu, and forced to eat the wretched lunch she provided, fried bologna sandwiches, and the aforementioned porridge.
Two dishes I only transported, briefly, from the lunch table to the commode. And have not touched since. Though admittedly, praise Odin, they don’t get offered much.
rea 03.09.04 at 3:33 am
Wagner–the heavy metal of opera . . .
MGF 03.09.04 at 4:01 am
I appreciate Mark Twain’s comment regarding Wagner, to the effect – “Wagner’s music must be better than it sounds.”
James Russell 03.09.04 at 6:19 am
Another good reason to eschew Wagner is that Wagner was Hitler’s favorite.
And Stalin was apparently a fan of American westerns. But then again, I don’t see any reason to let what I choose to listen to or watch be decided by the tastes of world-famous dictators…
Dan Simon 03.09.04 at 6:37 am
I appreciate Mark Twain’s comment regarding Wagner, to the effect – “Wagner’s music must be better than it sounds.â€
Actually, Mark Twain attributed this quotation to fellow humorist Edgar Wilson Nye. (Also, as far as I know, he never said anything about belching.)
Motoko 03.09.04 at 7:15 am
Surely the best comment made regarding Wagner was made by Debussy, when he inserted the opening bar from Tristan in the piano piece Golliwog’s Cakewalk, and marked the score “avec une grande émotion”.
Motoko 03.09.04 at 7:16 am
Surely the best comment made regarding Wagner was made by Debussy, when he inserted the opening bar from Tristan in the piano piece Golliwog’s Cakewalk, and marked the score “avec une grande émotion”.
Motoko 03.09.04 at 7:17 am
I felt that needed a repeat.
Chris Bertram 03.09.04 at 7:56 am
Not that Debussy could have written Pelleas, or much else of his output but for Wagner ….
I know from experience that arguing against Wagnerphobes is a fruitless waste of effort, but somehow I can’t stop myself. So here goes:
I first bought a CD of Wagner’s music (a selection) in a fit of open-mindedness about 15 years ago. Until then all I really know was the Ride of the Valkyries which is (a) the bit that everyone knows and largely accounts for his reputation for being bombastic and (b) completely untypical of his output. From then on I was hooked, though I’m past the first rush of enthusiasm now. Whether it is the opening bars of Tristan or the layers of sound that make up Parsifal, only those who are predisposed to dislike him would dispute Wagner’s genius. His influence speaks for itself Strauss, Mahler, Debussy, Schoenberg … it just doesn’t happen without Wagner.
And to his musical talent we have to add his skills as a dramatist and psychologist. (There’s a sinister side to his abilities here and he can slip into the manipulative.)
Wider cultural influence: without Wagner, no Ulysses, no Remembrance of Times Past, no Wasteland, no Odilon Redon, perhaps no Art Nouveau. I could go on and on.
Was he Hitler’s favourite composer? I thought that was Lehar. Wagner’s odious politics — especially as he got older — are to be deplored, but the political message of the Ring (for example, and if there is one) is hardly one that is congenial to the Nazis. Of course, given his wide cultural
And of course there’s so much for intellectuals to argue over and get excited about: the relationship with Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Max Weber, psychoanalysis and the Ring, Marxism and the Ring (cf George Bernard Shaw), the question of how far Wagner’s racial views infect his work.
Are Wagner fans an odd bunch? Certainly, but don’t let that put you off.
Motoko 03.09.04 at 8:48 am
Not that Debussy could have written Pelleas, or much else of his output but for Wagner…
You’re right about Pelleas, but ‘much else’ seems a bit of an overstatement. I think Debussy had the same feeling about W. as so many others: he loved it and laughed at it.
I saw Pierre Audi’s production of the entire Ring in Amsterdam four years ago, and I can honestly say it was the best thing I ever saw or heard and ever will see or hear in a theatre. But at the same time there were so many over-the-top moments in the libretto, leitmotives that returned hundred times, etc. that my friends and I would spend days afterwards making fun of it. There’s definitely something there I can’t feel comfortable with, also ideologically of course.
And to his musical talent we have to add his skills as a dramatist and psychologist.
I don’t really see those. I think when Brunnhilde betrays Siegfried and then, after he dies, claims she was the only one to love him that’s just silly.
…without Wagner, no Ulysses, no Remembrance of Times Past, no Wasteland, no Odilon Redon, perhaps no Art Nouveau.
No LOTR!
James Russell 03.09.04 at 10:30 am
Actually one of the best comments I ever read about Wagner came from Edgard Varèse, who said of Parsifal that some of it was grand and strong but it went on and on and on. You could say similar things about much of Richard’s other work, of course…
Iain J Coleman 03.09.04 at 10:30 am
No LOTR!
Why not? Tolkien’s sources were much older than Wagner.
bad Jim 03.09.04 at 10:54 am
Wagner offers so many opportunities to laugh at one’s self that it’s probably imprudent to ignore all of them.
Motoko 03.09.04 at 11:46 am
Why not? Tolkien’s sources were much older than Wagner.
I’m sure that there are many older sources, but you gotta admit there are a lot of links here. Mime and Luskin, the ring everyone wants that is completely useless to its bearer (Warenfetischismus).
Speaking of quotations on Wagner; didn’t Debussy call the Leitmotivs traffic signs?
TomD 03.09.04 at 3:04 pm
The last words of Walkure Act I are actually “so blühe denn Wälsungen-Blut!”: “so flourish, blood of the Walsungs!” Not quite “our children will be of the purest blood.”
And that about sums up a common attitude, even from intelligent and perceptive people: infantile, unreflecting hostility based on a distorted or plain wrong idea of the work and the facts.
The greatest great composer of the Third Reich was actually the throughly German, universally popular and uplifting artist — Beethoven; Bruckner, Brahms and Strauss bringing up the rear. Carl Orff was the approved contemporary composer: the wildly popular Carmina Burana being almost the musical equivalent of a Nuremberg Rally.
Wagner was a difficult case for the Nazis, since some of his works (Gotterdammerung, Parsifal) had a philosophical message (pessimism and defeat, compassion and pacifism respectively) that clashed with their propaganda. Solution: Parsifal was not performed after 1939.
But the rather innocuous comedy of Meistersinger went down a treat thanks (?) to the closing hymn to ‘Holy German Art’. Art without an explicit philosophical message, but with a few propitious surface symbols, is *easier* to pervert to propaganda.
Psychologically, a phobia is similar to a philia: both are extreme, irrational emotional reactions. “I don’t like Wagner” often means “I don’t like what Wagner reveals to me about myself.” With sufficient exposure to the stimulus, the irrational reflex reaction goes away – to be replaced by a real appreciation. Of course, you still might not like the music, but at least you would have the basis of an informed critique.
For those interested in going this route, buying CDs (preferably with full libretto and translation) is almost always the best way, for reasons that Chris and Keiran have demonstrated.
Walkure Act I is actually a very good place to start, being as sweeping, direct and melodic as any of Verdi’s. Bruno Walter’s old recording is recommended. Act III of Parsifal is another high point (Knappertsbusch). The Dutchman, Tannhauser and Meistersinger are not to be neglected: no leitmotives needed here! W’s greatest work is of course Tristan, but this takes a lot of ‘getting used to’.
Avoid at all costs the “Ride of the Valkyries”: it’s not by Wagner at all! It was stuck together by someone who, to borrow Bernard Shaw’s phrase, didn’t much like music, but loved the noise it made. The result bastardizes the musical/dramatic structure of the passage, resulting in a repetitive and unbalanced musical botch, usually played much too slowly and heavily.
Speaking of which, also avoid James Levine (he of the 15-hour-plus Ring cycle), Bernard Haitink and Reginald Goodall, who can drain the life out of anything.
Chris Martin 03.09.04 at 4:25 pm
tomd wrote:
Avoid at all costs the “Ride of the Valkyriesâ€: it’s not by Wagner at all!
Golly gee whiz. Who knew that Wagner subcontracted his composition work to people who “didn’t much like music, but loved the noise it made.”
Yes, Virginia, there is a Ride of the Valkyries by Wagner. There is some editing in the concert version, but that doesn’t change the essential Wagner composition.
Kieran, I’d start with the Siegfried Idyll in the original chamber version. Nothing bombastic there. In fact, it’s tender and disarming. (Factoid: Nietzsche was at the premiere.) Then listen to the Rienzi overture.
At that point if you decide you’re interested in more, I’d recommend getting a disc of his overtures and preludes. This 2-cd bargain is excellent, but you can search rec.music.classical.recordings for more recommendations.
Motoko 03.09.04 at 6:07 pm
I think “our children will be of the purest blood” is from “Good People Breed Good People”.
Anyway, if somebody here wants to start listening to Wagner, try out Stokowski’s recording of the prelude to Act III of Tristan (with the English horn solo). There’s nothing like it.
mecki 03.09.04 at 8:07 pm
tomd wrote: “The Dutchman…no leitmotive.”
Huh? It has some of the strongest leitmotive I’ve ever heard. My favorite is where the Leitmotiv of the Dutchman runs roughshod over the leitmotif of the sailors.
Interesting comment on Levine, who I have found one of the few conductors who can make the Berlin Phil sit up and beg.
aveggie 03.09.04 at 8:53 pm
Hitler a vegetarian? He ate pork and other pig stuff. Even if pigs can fly it cannot become a plant.
jay 03.10.04 at 12:50 am
There’s a lot to make fun of in Wagner, and your experience is not one
I’d be eager to repeat, either.
On the other hand, the Ring cycle contains some of the most interesting,
challenging, complex, and satisfying music I know of.
Wagner was egotistical, bombastic, prejudiced and brilliant. Hemingway was
reactionary and anti-semitic, but at least you don’t have to put up with
belching when you read.
I once owned a two-LP set called “An Introdution to Wagner’s Ring” which was
sort of a one-hour (maybe 90 mins) lecture by Derek Cooke (IIRC). He showed what all
the musical structure was, how one theme develops into another and changes, and how that
expresses literary ideas that do not appear in the text as such. Amazing.
The other introduction to Wagner’s Ring is by Anna Russell. Extremely funny, even if
you are completely unfamiliar with the Ring.
I actually think “Das Rheingold” is the most accessible. It’s shorter, and the
plot stands on its own the best. Though Dutchman and Lohengrin are nice, too.
My wife actually sort of likes Lohengrin, so that’s certainly in its favor.
Greg 03.10.04 at 1:08 am
Hitler liked his dog too, and believed in good roads. I guess they’re off our approved list too.
Evelyn Waugh described the Battle of Crete, in which he fought, as being like German opera: too long and too loud.
And on a thoroughly puerile note, some people seem to think this genuinely classic book on Wagner has a funny title.
Jean Lepley 03.10.04 at 7:54 am
Of course, if you’re going to define yourself by Hitler’s likes and dislikes you’ll want to take up smoking. Hitler didn’t allow it…
Jean Lepley 03.10.04 at 7:54 am
Of course, if you’re going to define yourself by Hitler’s likes and dislikes you’ll want to take up smoking. Hitler didn’t allow it…
linden 03.10.04 at 7:54 am
“And Stalin was apparently a fan of American westerns. But then again, I don’t see any reason to let what I choose to listen to or watch be decided by the tastes of world-famous dictators…”
Actually, I remember reading recently that Stalin tried to have or wanted to have John Wayne killed.
Dave F 03.11.04 at 11:47 am
I think it was Khrushchev who was a big fan of Hollywood movies. I seem to recall a tabloid hoo-haa about Shirley Maclaine shaking her butt in his face when he visited the set during his famous visit to the US.
Listening to Wagner is like being force-fed Black Forest Cake, for my money.
He was a keen anti-Semite too, but music lovers will know that amid much gotterdammerung, Daniel Barenboim championed his music with concerts in Israel, purely on artistic grounds.
Abiola Lapite 03.11.04 at 11:51 am
“Hitler a vegetarian? He ate pork and other pig stuff.”
No he didn’t. Hitler really was a vegetarian. This argument a lot of veggies like to make is pretty stupid anyway, as others have pointed out here. For goodness sake, the man liked to keep clean – should we all roll around in the mud because of that?
Abiola Lapite 03.11.04 at 11:53 am
By the way, Hitler liked Mickey Mouse reels too. Anybody about to give up on Disney’s output? Kim Jong Il likes Cognac and fast cars; let’s bin those as well.
Walt Pohl 03.11.04 at 4:30 pm
I personally like Wagner, at least in small doses. I did start to watch a TV version of “Siegfried”, and I found it incredibly dull. The repetition of leitmotifs over long enough stretches becomes grating — like we’re watching a sung version of Star Wars or something.
There is a lot of Wagner I do like, such as the prelude to Tristan, or “liebwohl” from the Ring. But a world in which no one hated Wagner would be intolerable.
milt rosenberg 03.12.04 at 11:03 pm
By their essays shall ye know them! Try to read his stuff. It is more pumped up and more repititious than his music–and the ultimate leitmotif is the corrupting, verminous presence of the Jews. No Wagner, no Debussy? No Wagner, probably no Hitler!
milt rosenberg 03.12.04 at 11:03 pm
By their essays shall ye know them! Try to read his stuff. It is more pumped up and more repititious than his music–and the ultimate leitmotif is the corrupting, verminous presence of the Jews. No Wagner, no Debussy? No Wagner, probably no Hitler!
milt rosenberg 03.12.04 at 11:04 pm
By their essays shall ye know them! Try to read his stuff. It is more pumped up and more repititious than his music–and the ultimate leitmotif is the corrupting, verminous presence of the Jews. No Wagner, no Debussy? No Wagner, probably no Hitler!
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