I thought I’d indulge my fantasy of joining the hard-core techie kids (like Kieran) by installing Linux on my home PC at the weekend. Bravely ignoring the concerns of my family — who feared for their own future access to the computer — I downloaded a disk image for Suse 9.1 (Personal edition) and rebooted from the CD-ROM. I even managed successfully to repartition my hard disk (and Windows still works). But under Linux I have no mouse (mine’s a Logitech Optical USB creature) and no network (despite faithfully copying down and reproducing details of DNS servers, gateways etc.). Much googling and initialization of modules later, I’m no further forward. The problem isn’t Linux as such, since Knoppix works fine direct from the CD, recognizing the rodent, happily working with other USB devices, and auto-configuring the network. But I’d like a “proper” version, nicely installed on my new partition, so that I can escape the “told you sos” and “what did you expects” of partner and children. All advice gratefully received.
{ 38 comments }
Reinder 07.26.04 at 12:19 pm
I have a conventional serial mouse and a USB Wacom tablet, both of which work under linux. I don’t know if you had any instructions in front of you when you installed, but did you try configuring the mice with Sax? I never remember which exact command it is: Sax, sax, SaX or a variant thereof; just try typing them until something loads. Sax should auto-probe for mice and does a decent job at finding the right one.
q 07.26.04 at 12:29 pm
I suggest you reverse all the changes, switch back to Windows so your family can access the data. Then buy another machine (doesn’t need to be a fancy one) and test using that machine. This is Standard Software Engineering Methodology: test first implement second.
Chris Lightfoot 07.26.04 at 12:41 pm
The most coherent advice I’ve been able to compose is, “find someone who will help, and use whatever distribution etc. they do, at least until you’re up-and-running”. (As another suggestion, it ought to be possible to see how Knoppix is configuring itself — for instance, what modules is it loading etc., and transfer this configuration over the other distribution.)
weev 07.26.04 at 12:49 pm
I reccomend Redhat Fedora Core 2. All distributions are pretty much equal in power, but not in user-friendliness. I use FC2 on production servers and at home. I also reccomended FC1 to my parents back when Fedora first came out, and they managed to get it installed fine. They’re not tech-literate at all, so that should say alot about it. It autoinstalls from the CD, will recognize and autoconfigure your mouse, and network configuration is a breeze.
Abiola Lapite 07.26.04 at 1:10 pm
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Have you tried looking at Mandrake Linux? That’s about as consumer-friendly as a Linux distribution gets. You might also think of running Linux from within Windows by using VMWare rather than on a separate partition – that way, with VMWare’s NAT you won’t have to fiddle about with networking details. The only thing to watch out for with VMWare is to ensure you have plenty of RAM.
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The magnificently aristocatique Count von Bladet 07.26.04 at 1:14 pm
I used to a Linux admin whizz back in the day, but now I have flunkies to handle the sysadmin chores for me, and my chops have deteriorated markedly. For what it’s worth, I strongly recommend this solution.
Jeff Darcy 07.26.04 at 1:31 pm
If it works fine under Knoppix, you might want to consider installing Knoppix onto your hard drive. I believe there are instructions on their site for how do do it, and it’s pretty simple. A related option would be to boot Knoppix and take notes on what drivers etc. it loads, then use that information to get your other version working.
chris 07.26.04 at 1:44 pm
If Knoppix works fine then your mouse is not one of the few USB devices Linux has problems with. I did quite the same you just did 3 months ago. I’d recommend Debian testing (which is what Knoppix is based on, so you could simply copy the config files), or installing Knoppix on the hard drive. Not that the other distros are bad, but they use kernels that need slightly different modules from those you know will work with Knoppix.
I had some problems with usb devices, too, but I’m now extremely glad I made the switch. The only reason I boot into win (once every three weeks or so) is to check if my blog layout works with IE…
(588 h uptime on Debian unstable [sic!] with the memory a little less than half full)
dsquared 07.26.04 at 2:06 pm
I strongly recommend simply buying a Linux tshirt, telling everyone how good Linux is and continuing to use Windows. All of the effect without the danger.
todd. 07.26.04 at 2:08 pm
For what it’s worth, my Logitech optical usb mouse works great in Redhat. I’d love to share how it was configured, but Kudzu simply found it and set it up for me.
Andrew Case 07.26.04 at 2:36 pm
Nobody’s said it yet, so I will: Sh*tcan the PC and by a Mac. All the superiority (both real and imagined) of Linux, none of the hassle of a PC.
Theophylact 07.26.04 at 4:07 pm
Hmm. My SuSE 9.1 installed just fine with regards to the mouse (a cordless optical Logitech), and I’m even using a KVM switch to go back and forth between a WinXP box and Linux.
Where I have a problem is with the desktop, which overruns the screen by about 25%.
Dave 07.26.04 at 4:15 pm
No offense, but there is never a reason to use Linux on a family computer. The largest problem you will have, if you use MS Office under Windows, is that the free clones have a file format which is subtly incompatible with the Microsoft software, and will cause you problems if your family wants to move files back and forth to other computers.
I don’t understand why you want to use Linux, especially on that machine. I consider myself a “hard-core techie” and I exclusively use Windows, because it’s easier, is a legitimate multi-user system with NT/2000/XP, and leaves me free to spend my time on software and Web development. But if you do want to try a UNIX system, and don’t want to shell out for a Mac (which would be my first suggestion as well), I’d buy a secondhand computer with lots of generic hardware and use that – leave the computer you have for your family’s use.
Rich 07.26.04 at 4:16 pm
There’s a good X configuration tutorial here: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/edu/os-dw-linuxxwin-i.html
Go through that step by step, and you may get your mouse running and screen sized properly.
Andrew Brown 07.26.04 at 4:17 pm
networking on suse is a royal pain. Specifically, anything involving DHCP is a pain. What I ended up doing was listing all three machines in the hopme network in a hosts file — for a ong time I could browse all over the internet, but not reach anyone else in the house.
You can probably install the mouse manually with yast, though.
Not Me 07.26.04 at 4:35 pm
Yeah, another person here who doesn’t understand the Linux obsession.
We run a Win machine for games, &c., and on one game I admin I’ve been watching one user attempt to tutor the other in SuSe for a solid week now — just trying to to get his peripherals and network functioning again.
Meanwhile, our play-with-techie-things box (named “frankenbox”, because it’s a buncha mismatched spare parts) runs FreeBSD quite happily and with minimal frustration. I like the BSDs, and they’re more than enough to get your tech urges out on without delving into Linux hell.
weev 07.26.04 at 5:06 pm
dave wrote:
“No offense, but there is never a reason to use Linux on a family computer. The largest problem you will have, if you use MS Office under Windows, is that the free clones have a file format which is subtly incompatible with the Microsoft software, and will cause you problems if your family wants to move files back and forth to other computers.”
This is simply not true. Openoffice has the ability to load and save MS Word, Excel, etc files. I have been using Openoffice in Windows-only workplaces for two years now with no problems.
W. 07.26.04 at 5:14 pm
I use Debian myself, and it is rock solid, and fun and easy to use. But when I installed it (three plus years ago, mind), it was an ordeal to get all my peripherals working.
There is the new install system, which I’ve heard is quite wonderful … , but I have not tried to install or run a dual-boot system, so I have no clue how that does.
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
“Sarge” is the name of the testing variation of Debian, which is probably the sweet spot between bleeding edge up-to-the-date software, and stuff that’s actually been tested, and proven not to possess crippling, showstopping bugs. It does not install the latest version of Firefox, but the latest version has been added to the unstable tree, and might get uploaded to testing later in the week. My point is, you won’t be on the leading edge, downloading new versions of stuff within moments of their release. The Apt package management system will keep track of your specific system, and manage the task of dowloading, configuring, and installing upgraded versions of your programs.
As for your specific issues, USB support in linux is pretty good, but still, obviously, isn’t particularly intuitive. I don’t have good knowledge of SuSe, but Debian uses a program/system called “hotplug” to manage USB devices and associate them with appropriate drivers. I’ve had no end of difficulty getting my scanner to work reliably, but this is a function of my scanner being a pain, not hotplug. If other folks are able to get your mouse to work in their systems, then I imagine it does, in fact, work well, you’re just a victim of linux’s painfully non-intuitive configuration.
Configuring your network is pretty dark magic for me, even after seven or so years of using Linux. Every distro I’ve ever used, Redhat, Mandrake, Debian, Knoppix, Gentoo, etc, have successfully gotten me onto my network, and the internet with minimal interaction from me.
Honestly, if you’re interested in running Linux to prove a point, don’t bother; the sentiments are appreciated, but the heartbreak and hassle aren’t nearly worth it. If you’re actually interested in learning to use it, you probably should invest in a seperate computer to nutter with, and break, so you’re not dealing with the stress of potentially losing important data.
The Walmart (*ducks*) Microtel PC’s are pretty good, and the support folks at Microtel have some linux experience, and will answer your questions. (The Linux distro they use is not called Debian, but might as well be called Evil Debian, the version of Debian that charges you to download software. Rest assured, you are in no way obligated to actually use it.)
Walt Pohl 07.26.04 at 5:19 pm
I’m glad to know that there are people who will always take a stand against trying something new.
Dave 07.26.04 at 5:38 pm
It’s not an issue of trying something new. I’ve worked on Windows, Linux, UNIX, and Mac, and I strongly prefer Windows (though Mac is becoming a closer and closer second).
As for OpenOffice, I used it about a year/year-and-a-half ago, and had some serious compatibility issues with MS Office. So, YMMV.
Chris 07.26.04 at 5:47 pm
You could dump SuSe, install Lindows and trick your family into thinking they are using Windows.
todd. 07.26.04 at 6:00 pm
You mean Linspire?
I also disagree with w. I started out dual-booting two years ago, thinking I would just tinker around. At first, I was easily frustrated and ran back to Windows constantly.
But within a couple of months I was fairly competent in Linux, and gaining confidence daily. And because I found that I prefered Linux, I rarely rebooted into Windows at all.
There are headaches and frustrations. If they turn out to be too much, then by all means scrap the partition and go on with your life. Dave doesn’t like Linux. Great. Many people do. A lot of people think that the initial headaches are worth it. And it’s worth the effort to find out for yourself.
jam 07.26.04 at 6:00 pm
I fear there is no such thing as “linux” any more. There’s a bunch of not very compatible distros, some of which may work with your particular configuration.
If this particular version of Suse doesn’t work for you, undownload it, get your money back, and try another distro.
I do have to add that it is antisocial to run Windows on a machine directly connected to the internet. There are enough zombies out there; you should not seek to add to them.
W. 07.26.04 at 6:39 pm
I may have, er, communicated my sentiments in a more brisque fashion than I intended. Of course, Professor Bertram should try new things. Running Linux is a wonderful and rewarding experience.
It is also a significant investment in time and effort, and I think the time and scratch spent procuring a separate computer to make mistakes on, and “break” would repay itself many times over, because nothing feels worse (in my experience) than hosing valuble data because of self-inflicted wounds, er, a computer-related project went south.
Is my horrible experience with finnicky harddrives, and bad boot sectors, and elbust-o power supplies showing? Heh.
Shai 07.26.04 at 6:44 pm
I’ve been running a freebsd (*nix like linux) on my network gateway since 1998 (I had previously messed around with redhat 4.1 in 1996 and was amazed at the christmas module — snow collected on the top of windows. I didn’t do much else). It also functions as a web server, mail server, proxy server, database server, firewall. In fact it works so well I haven’t upgraded it since 1998 (it’s amazing the 1995 2.1gb hard drive in it is still functioning) …
Now I’ve tried linux on the desktop and there was a time when it compared favorably wit windows. Windows 95 and 98 were truly horrible. Some of the human factors problems in Gnome, KDE, etc were offset by the stability of the linux platform, but windows 2000 and windows xp have closed that gap a few years ago, so I can’t think of any good reasons to use it unless you like to tinker.
cooper 07.26.04 at 7:09 pm
Yeah, I really have to say, I wouldn’t recommend SuSE for someone getting started. Mandrake or Fedora (anything RedHat derived) tends to simply go better when you (*cough*) don’t really know what you are doing.
Tom Runnacles 07.26.04 at 8:50 pm
Chris,
(1) I’m with w.: to go from a Windows-only PC to dual-boot when there’s important data on the existing disc is probably a no-no unless you’re comfortable doing the install in your sleep. It’s really way too easy to trash stuff by accident.
(2) Weev wrote:
Hmmph. Complicated OO documents with lots of formatting really don’t come out looking sensible in Word, in my experience. OO is fine for shopping lists, but use it for your resume at your peril, folks.
(3) I’ve used Redhat since 7.0, and though I should say that my hardware is very standard, the installer left me with absolutely no tweaking to do since it recognised everything straight away. Grand. I’ve not upgraded to Fedora, but if it’s as good as the other RH releases, you should be fine.
(4) Debian is hard, hard, hard. Avoid.
Sarah Kinley 07.26.04 at 11:17 pm
Dear Chris
As someone who went from Windows to Linux with no specialist knowledge, I have found that visiting a Linux-specific forum, particularly one aimed at newbies, is the best method for solving problems.
Here is one that I found to be particularly helpful. It is frequented by a group of Linux users and distro professionals. Even if they cannot answer the question personally, they will try direct you to someone who can :)
http://linuxquestions.org
PS SuSE 8.2 works very well indeed on my PC.
Chet Murthy 07.27.04 at 12:15 am
Chris,
If Knoppix works fine, then, um,
so will Debian. And you can use
Knoppix as an installer.
And … you can snarf all the config files from Knoppix.
In short, Knoppix has done all the hard work.
Tom T. 07.27.04 at 3:01 am
I’ve been contemplating turning my WinXP box into a dual-boot system with Linux (just for tinkering). I have a second hard drive that’s essentially empty, and I would put Linux on there. Am I running the same risk of Windows crashing and data loss if the Linux install is on a wholly separate disk?
Gil 07.27.04 at 5:04 am
I have a dual boot RH80/WinXP box. My Logitech USB optical mouse doesn’t work in Linux either. While I try to figure out how to set it up I’m using two mice(mouses?); USB with XP and PS/2 with Linux. They seem to ignore each other when required to.
Alex 07.27.04 at 6:45 pm
Dear Dad,
All I’m going to say in this space is that “Google” is not, has never been and will never be a verb. Well, in other contexts it could well be, but using a search engine would generally be described as “searching”. Do as you will with Linux when I’m not in the house. Or at least when I’m not trying to use the internet.
teep 07.27.04 at 8:07 pm
Google, like xerox, is a copyrighted noun frequently used as a verb to the ongoing distress of its copyright holders. Whether or not one AGREES with using ‘to google’ as a verb, it’s what is actually happening out there in the real world when regular people are permitted to use the language as it suits them to do.
Persons who take a descriptivist approach to language will accept ‘to google’ as a verb because there are people using it as such out in the real world.
People aboard the prescriptivist train, which makes tidy circles in its ivory tower, will likely explain repeatedly how we ought not be using ‘to google’ as a verb, but their pronouncements (as always) will only be of interest to themselves.
More on this:
http://www.marketingprofs.com/4/arruda12.asp
http://www.wordspy.com/words/google.asp
The two articles cited use “to google” as a specific case of ‘searching for information about a person of whom you know nothing’… I’ve seen it applied more broadly than that, in more of a general “searching via one’s search engine of choice” sense, but your mileage may vary. It is a newish word and, as such, is still in flux. I suspect that its meaning will settle down if the word persists.
todd. 07.27.04 at 8:45 pm
I feel bad because we veered off into arguing about distributions and Windows. Any progress with the network and/or mice, Chris?
Chris Bertram 07.27.04 at 10:53 pm
Thanks for asking Todd. I’m nowhere with the mouse at the moment, but I’m getting lots of help on the network side. Actually lots of people have offered help for which I’m really really grateful. But I think it best if I try to follow one “help path” at a time so I’ve had to put some people off. Thanks again everyone.
Thlayli 07.28.04 at 4:27 am
The only USB device I have on my SuSE machine is a Zip drive (does anyone else still use those?) No configuration required. Ditto for my Logitech cordless optical PS/2 mouse.
anon 07.28.04 at 6:36 am
JWZ once noted that when you have a problem with Linux, everyone will tell you to use a different distribution. Or to recompile your kernel (fortunately, this one much less these days).
I recommend that you use whatever distro your most technical friend uses. And don’t forget the HOWTO series of documents — you may end up cargo culting a bit, but if it works, who cares?
Don’t forget to check the syslog.
USB mouse support has at least two components: kernel, and X server. Both need to understand your mouse.
Tim 07.28.04 at 9:55 pm
One avenue you might want to go down is seeing if there’s a Linux Users Group (LUG) in your area. If so, join their mailing list, attend some meetings, etc. What you’ll find is a group of people with a highly concentrated knowledge of linux and a willingness to share it.
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