Weltmeisterschaft 2006

by Chris Bertram on December 9, 2005

It is the “draw the World Cup today”:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2006/4511110.stm (about 2030 gmt) so there’s an excuse for a soccer thread (like I need an excuse!). A couple of points worth noting:

— The USA is now the most fancied nation outside of Europe and Latin America, with odds of about 89-1 at betfair.

— The African representation is truly surprising: no Nigeria, no Cameroun, no South Africa. Of the African nations, Ivory Coast has the shortest odds (same as the US of A).

So who is going to win the damn thing? England clearly fancy themselves this time and look strong in every area except goalkeeper. The Germans have to stand a good chance on their home turf. France are over the hill. Spain never seem to perform.

I’m going for the *Netherlands* to win for the first time ever and thereby to stick it to “their historic enemies”:http://www.ajax-usa.com/desk/cheeseheads-vs-krauts-30-years-of-enmity.html on German home turf. And they’re good value too at around 13-1. Whether they’ll still look so good when we see which pool they’re drawn in is another matter.

{ 34 comments }

1

Simstim 12.09.05 at 8:43 am

I’d put Brazil or Argentina higher than England who will be lucky to make it to the semis. Also, thanks for reminding me early that I should avoid England for the majority of next summer.

2

des von bladet 12.09.05 at 9:00 am

Oh to be out of Eng-ger-lnd When the foopball’s here!

(I’m hoping to be in the Netherlands, although I will mostly be supporting teams in bleu, to the negligible extent that I notice the silly Nationalfoopball at all.)

3

foolishmortal 12.09.05 at 10:31 am

England clearly fancy themselves this time and look strong in every area except goalkeeper

I have to take issue with this. When England faced France in Euro 2004, they were two world-class sides with distinctly second class keepers (David James and Fabien Barthez). Since then, James has been definitively dropped. Paul Robinson has been showing both talent and consistency for spurs, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Nigel Martyn get a call come June.
If England have a weakness, it is in the holding midfield position. Neither Gerrard nor Lampard are well suited to that role, and Nicky Butt is struggling to hold a place in second-bottom Birmingham’s starting 11. Ledley King has been used in this capacity,but infrequently and usually as a sub.

Less serious than England’s lack of a defensive midfielder are their lack of a proper target man, and the eternal problem of who to start on the left. Joe Cole should solve the latter problem (though he tends to make the team a bit narrow), and Crouch may help the former.

All the same, England have a shot: there’s a good bit of rancor and disharmony in the Argentina camp, the Netherlands have a very young squad, and Brazil, well, um…. there’s always hope.

4

aretino 12.09.05 at 10:34 am

I loathe the Azzurri, but I can’t see how they fail to rate a mention among your contenders. Surely they are next favorites after Brazil and Germany.

I dare say a lot of money will be lost on the Yanks. Mexico are a stronger side, will likely have a easier draw, and can be had at better odds.

5

aretino 12.09.05 at 10:41 am

Correction: better odds for USA.

6

Kieran Healy 12.09.05 at 10:43 am

For our non-footballing readers, this would be a good time to take a look at this ancient post of mine (from the last World Cup) on national football strategies. The degree to which the political culture of a nation is expressed in its approach to soccer is really quite remarkable. Sadly, I can’t claim credit for the diagrams.

7

Nick 12.09.05 at 10:50 am

89-1 on the US looks like damn good odds. They’re a pretty good side (Quarter-finals last time) and, IIRC, a few of their players are based in Germany which gives them a bit of an advantage.

That said, because of the way the draw works, unless they get placed with one of the weaker European non-seeds, they’re likely to be in the ‘group of death’, but even though it’ll be tough, I’d say they have better than a 1-in-90 chance of winning it.

8

Thlayli 12.09.05 at 11:13 am

The degree to which the political culture of a nation is expressed in its approach to soccer is really quite remarkable.

Pete Davies on the same topic:

“The Renaissance happened in Italy, and the Industrial Revolution in England — and when either country plays soccer, that’s the way it tends to look.”

9

aretino 12.09.05 at 11:16 am

Look, I love the Yanks and their spirited, naive football, but 89-1 is just an excess of foolish American dollars being soaked up by the market. They have far less than a 1 in 90 chance of winning. Quarterfinalists in 2002 was an overachievement.

That said, there’s a curious curse on the favorite in the group with the USA (e.g., England in 1950, Colombia in 1994, Portugal in 2002).

10

jlw 12.09.05 at 11:31 am

I think it’s peculiar that the odds for the Yanks have been driven as low as they are–not because the U.S. doesn’t have a chance, but that I can’t imagine any American bettor laying down money on the World Cup. I mean, most of the sports fans in the U.S. won’t realize that the Cup is on the horizon until late June 2006.

So who’s wagering on the U.S.? It boggles the mind. So it strikes me that 89-to-1 are pretty good odds, with the fair price more likely to be about 75 or 70-to-1.

11

jlw 12.09.05 at 11:38 am

Or make that “as high as they are”

Which is how I had it originally.

12

Hektor Bim 12.09.05 at 12:07 pm

Just for historical reasons, it seems one would favor the Brazilians and the Germans, but who knows? Why does anybody who is not English think the English have a shot, anyway? They’re not top seeds, they’re not hosts, and they tend to underperform. They haven’t been to a final since 1966 (when they hosted) and haven’t been to the semi-finals since 1990. Of course, Brazil can’t win it every time, and the Germans could fall, but I doubt England can pull it off.

Jingoism really does come out on the football pitch. At least there are fewer deaths that way.

13

constablesavage 12.09.05 at 12:32 pm

England are apparently rated 2 in the world on FIFA’s current rankings, but then FIFA’s rankings are a bit mad. Actually I thought England had a better chance at the last world cup. They were then a better team than Germany, who were the eventual finalists.

14

Erik 12.09.05 at 12:33 pm

As a Dutchman, I hope you are right but I fear that the current Dutch team is overrated. I can’t remember a World Cup where there was such a favorite: Brazil could field two teams that could win it.

15

foolishmortal 12.09.05 at 2:08 pm

Why does anybody who is not English think the English have a shot, anyway?

I’m from San Francisco, and here is why I think England have a shot:

1. Defense:
While lack of depth on the flanks is a potential worry, the first choice English back four are, without qualification, the best in the world. Sol Campbell and John Terry are flat out dominating even on their off days (and serious threats at set pieces). Ferdinand perhaps less so, but he has loads of pace and is quite comfortable on the ball or shepherding the ball out of defense. Ashley Cole is much better defensively than Roberto Carlos, and though he may not have Carlos’ shot, he’s confident and dangerous running on to the left flank. Gary Neville is, IMO, as underrated as he is consistent;he’s experienced,industrious, and puts in a better cross than most give him credit for.

2.Industry:
Here is where the frenetic pace of English football pays off: every single member of the England squad (with the exception perhaps of Jermaine Defoe) is willing and able to put in a tackle in any part of the pitch at any stage of the game. Woe be it to the defender dawdling on the ball within fifteen yards of Rooney, and rushed clearances will find Terry’s head sooner than they will an attacker’s. Cole, Gerrard, Lampard, and Beckham are all creative and incisive attackers who can nonetheless deny opponents time and space.

3.Talent
Sven may employ rather conservative tactics, but this can’t completely mask the sheer talent that England possess. Wayne Rooney can score the most unlikely goals when the mood takes him, and Owen is both patient and clinical. I’m not sure about this, but I imagine Owen’s goals to games ratio in La Liga would compare quite favorably to that of Ronaldinho or Ronaldo (and most of Owen’s appearances were as a subsitute). Lampard is always a threat, and Gerrard demonstrated his quality on a certain night in Istanbul not too long ago. They might not have a Ronaldinho or Adriano, but they do have many and varied attacking threats.

I will concede that Brazil are favorites, and justifiably so. However, their defense is paper thin: Luisao is by no means world-class and Roque Junior couldn’t hold a starting place at Leeds(!). Furthermore, any Brazil player is liable to go into a sulk at any moment (c.f. Ronaldinho in 2002). Like Argentina,they haven’t had stable management for a while, and frequently the European-based players fail to participate in friendlies, training, and even minor tournaments (last Confederations cup).

I do not mean to suggest that an English victory is particularly likely. As has been noted, England have their problems, and chronically underperform, but I can quite confidently assert that they have a shot.

16

aretino 12.09.05 at 4:28 pm

Yanks in group of death; should be available on much easier odds now, perhaps 500-1.

17

Slocum 12.09.05 at 4:32 pm

Look, I love the Yanks and their spirited, naive football, but 89-1 is just an excess of foolish American dollars being soaked up by the market. They have far less than a 1 in 90 chance of winning. Quarterfinalists in 2002 was an overachievement.

Hmmm. In 2002, the U.S. outplayed runner-up Germany pretty obviously. Only spectacular goal play and one set-piece goal saved Germany. In this cup, Mexico is a 5 seed and the U.S. is a superior team (Mexico hasn’t been able to beat the U.S. anywhere other than Mexico City for several years). I don’t think there’s much doubt that the U.S. world cup team is a much likely bet than the U.S. hockey team was in the 1980 Olympics.

(Of course, I wrote that before checking the draw–the U.S. got hosed pretty badly there. Both Italy and the Czechs?)

18

Hektor Bim 12.09.05 at 4:52 pm

Slocum,

It could have been worse. The US could have taken Ivory Coast’s place in Group C. That one will be ugly, not that Group E will be fun. Group F should be interesting, actually, just to see how the Croats look.

Anybody know how good the Ukrainians actually are?

19

David Weman 12.09.05 at 4:56 pm

There was a survey of yesterday of Swedish football figures says that England along with Trididad and Togo were our dream opponents, so they can’t think oo highly of them. We avtually ened up with England, Trindidad and Paraguay, so they’re all very happy now.

20

Mrs Tilton 12.09.05 at 6:50 pm

For once I find myself largely in agreement with Slocum. Minor dissents: German victory over USA also materially aided by dodgy refereeing; spectacular goalkeeping yes, on the whole, but Kahn made one of his few bad calculations of WC02 in the match against the Americans, and it very nearly cost the Germans dear. (He made a far more serious error in the final, of course, and that one did cost.) America won’t win; but chances are good they’ll give a decent account of themselves.

But, in the end, it’s gotta be Togo.

21

eudoxis 12.09.05 at 7:10 pm

Oranje boven!

22

aretino 12.09.05 at 7:30 pm

Hmmm. In 2002, the U.S. outplayed runner-up Germany pretty obviously. Only spectacular goal play and one set-piece goal saved Germany.

Yes, and needing only a draw to advance from their group the U.S. let a dire Poland thrash them. (Remember that naive football I told you about. Yeah, there it is.) Only Portugal’s spectacular implosion saved the Yanks’ blushes.

23

Nick 12.09.05 at 7:40 pm

OK, I’d like to retract the idea that the US are good value now that they’ve landed in one of the two groups of death. (They’ve actually gone out to 94-1 on Betfair now)

Hektor – I believe they’d have actually taken Serbia & Montenegro’s place in group C, rather than Ivory Coast’s, though they’re probably wishing they’d got Costa Rica or South Korea’s instead.

Oh, and did anyone else find themselves wishing Poland had been drawn into the second spot in Germany’s group, so they’d get to play the opening match against them?

24

P O'Neill 12.10.05 at 12:30 am

Togo and Ivory Coast seem to prove that political collapse is no obstacle to having a half-decent football team.

25

Chris Bertram 12.10.05 at 6:50 am

There was a survey of yesterday of Swedish football figures says that England along with Trididad and Togo were our dream opponents,

Yes but this is probably just because England have such an abysmal record against Sweden (no victories for 37 years). Even if this run continues (and there’s not guarantee of that) England should still get through the group phase.

26

des von bladet 12.10.05 at 12:31 pm

Swe-der-lnd, Swe-der-lnd, Swe-der-lnd!

27

novakant 12.10.05 at 1:04 pm

well, well, everybody please keep in mind that Denmark (if you’re too young, old or haven’t been paying attention – I kid you not), yes, DENMARK managed to win the European championships in 1992…

hmmm, had I only bet a couple of 1000 on Denmark then …

28

Danny 12.10.05 at 2:13 pm

Brazil is easily the most talented side – but talent doesn’t mean much – look at Euro 2004.

Fortunately, Brazil have the Miror Theory on their side: Observe:
1982 – Italy
Going 4 years backwards and forwards:
1978, 1986: Argentina
Again:
1974, 1990: Germany
Once Again:
1970, 1994: Brazil
A bit of cheating:
1966, 1998: Host nation (England & France respectively)
Back in the mold:
1962, 2002: Brazil

Well, Brazil won it 1958. According to this calculation, they should win it this time round as well.

29

Guy 12.11.05 at 6:26 am

I am afraid the Dutch team is indeed overrated, but that could be to their advantage. Hubris has all too often made them selfdestruct.

One interesting detail: Ivory Coast player Salomon Kalou has been applying for Dutch citizenship. So far it has been denied. Should he be naturalised, he’ll end up playing against his ‘former’ country. The Dutch will be playing either with Kalou or against him. Good stuff for a debate on immigration.

30

Doug 12.11.05 at 6:12 pm

Are the Czechs actually any good? I confess to having missed if they are. And I wouldn’t want to underestimate Ghana (see the FR-GH opener in 2002), but I do like the Americans’ chances of getting out of the group. Whether or not any goals at are are scored in the games that Italy plays.

As for the US team being good because a few guys are in the Bundesliga, I think that’s exactly backwards. First, the Bundesliga is not that good (see current Champions’ League results). Second, the Americans are not getting much time on the field. Unless, in contrast to athletes in every other sport on the face of the planet, they are getting better by not playing, warming a Bundesliga bench is not such a great thing. MLS is a better pro league than it gets credit for.

And for whatever the FIFA rankings are worth, they have the USA at #8 and Italy at #12. Group of Death it may be, but whose?

31

strewelpeter 12.12.05 at 5:21 am

A foolproof way to make lots of money on british based exchanges is to lay ENG ER LAN AND in all major international sporting events in which they compete.
No matter how good or bad their teams are or what their real chances of winning are they will always be bought at a huge discount to the real odds by punters who bet with their hearts.

32

Doug T 12.12.05 at 9:54 am

Dumb question that is now irrelevant, but if the Netherlands really are a good bet to win it all, then why would their first round group make that big of a difference? If you’re really good enough to be one of the favorites to win the whole thing, then surely getting out of the first round ought to be fairly straightforward, an easy enough task that it wouldn’t affect the odds that much.

To put it another way, the difficulty and chance of failure is a lot higher when playing in the second round, when it’s win or go home and every single opponent is a top team, as opposed to the first round, where the success criteria is usually winning every other game, and half of the opponents are lower tier teams.

33

glenn 12.12.05 at 9:58 am

Czechs are very good, and the way Italy is playing – relying mostly on their reputation, and are a shadow of former selves – the USA has a slim, but not impossible, chance of getting second. Clearly, playing in Europe helps the azzurri. But at the end, I think we’ll have to suffer through another Brazilian victory.

34

Matt 12.13.05 at 10:17 am

Puzzlement at why Brazil should be favored; has a South American team ever won a World Cup played in Europe? Yes, but in 1958 when they had arguably one of the best teams ever–and they don’t play the same “pure” Brazilian style now that they played back then.

Italy tends to get off to a slow start in the first round–they tend to win a game and get two draws and have everyone else beat each other up. The US could put up a win against Italy.

Dutch–Always too many head cases.

Spain–‘nough said.

England–Find a way to beat themselves or get screwed out of a win. I think the soccer gods are punishing them for a controversial cup win in 1966.

Look for the Germans to march to victory.

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