Open Rugby World Cup Thread

As an Englishmen from Wigan I shall adopt my customary position when confronted by this ‘sporting event’ by ‘supporting’ anyone-but-England (Yes even Australia and that hurts, how it hurts!)— and otherwise try hard to avoid it entirely.

Actually Argentina’s team is doubly European as some of them play for Italy.

Oh and by the way:

As for the Southern Hemisphere, all the Kiwis I know are in their usual frame of mind, viz titanic self-confidence combined with a desperate fear that the All Blacks will choke yet again.

Does this mean that New Zealand is to rugby what Spain is to football?

As is well known, Americans can’t play rugby.

Was that the full USA team that lost to Munster a week or so back? Oh dear.

well, the Argentinians held off the French in the opener! (and did so reasonably cleanly).

My “controversial” view on this World Cup is that I hope it marks the turning point in other teams’ ludicrous deference to the All Blacks and their silly rituals. It was daft enough of them to demand that everyone respected their folk-dancing display when it was at least tangentially related to a Maori war-dance, but the “new” version, which was actually changed in order to benefit from copyright protection and thus earn licensing revenues, really ought to be treated as the joke it is by the rest of the world.

Oh, so that’s why they changed it. I thought perhaps they might have had medical advice that their faces might get stuck in one of those silly grimmaces.

But really, we should do our talking on the field. Any mention of pre-match rituals might remind people that a certain other team has a habit of taking the field accompanied by a goat.

dsquared,

The New Zealand team clearly means showbiz. And why not? What is sports if not entertainment? And why shouldn’t it be rewarded that you’re man enough to look completely silly in a phoney way in front of your opponent and the rest of the rugby world.

Anyway, I wasn’t even aware of this Rugby World Cup thing until it happened to influence my favourite football team – F. C. Copenhagen. They are playing Lens in a qualifier for the UEFA Cup, and the first leg had to move one day forward on account of rugby. I don’t blame you if you say “what?!”. But yes, it’s true. A European football match was forced to move because of an archaic parochial Celtic pastime.

And now I even hear that the New Zealanders are faking their “haka”. To what is the world coming?

As an England supporter and qualified referee, I was appalled at the inept performance of referee Tony Spreadbury in the France/Argentina opener. He clearly has no understanding of the laws of:

1. Offside at the kick; I lost count of the number of times players were in front of the ball before kicks were taken.
2. Advantage; Mr. Spreadbury awarded France a penalty during their huge drive early in the 2nd half, stating that he was still playing ‘advantage’ when the drive was halted illegally 1 metre from the Argentine line, then awarded a penalty against France for ‘holding on’ whilst they (France) were still under his advantage. Why ?????????
3. Staying on your feet at ruck
Both sides dived across rucks throughout the match

Despite the poor display of France, his inept refereeing tipped the balance in favour of Argentina ( who stuck like heros to their gameplan). I hope that during the remainder of the World Cup, referees will be required by the IRB to apply the laws of the game more effectively than Mr. Spreadbury did. If not, then the champion nation will be determined by refereeing lottery rather than rugby skill. as an Englishman, and ex-referee, I was ashamed by Mr. Spreadbury’s performance

Daniel @21,

surely the thing for teams facing the All Blacks to do is stick out their tongues, thumb their noses, then turn round, drop trou and “moon” the New Zealanders? I mean, that’s pretty much the same thing as the haka, if rather less Maori.

In the (extraordinarily unlikely) event that New Zealand ever face Germany, my advice to the Hun squad shall be to counter the haka with Schuhplatteln.

The new All Blacks haka is still a real haka, albeit of more recent vintage. There are many different haka, Ka Mate, the one traditionally performed by the All Blacks, is simply the best known.

A Cancan.

Oh for the love of all that is Holy, Good and Right in this world, I want to see once, just once, the All BLacks answered with another local dance – I want to see the Blues give their best Cancan.

Just once. Oh please, please, please. Even a small one. An attempt. A hint. A spark of Cancan in Pelous’ eyes. Anything.

Thank you, Kieran. Worth watching indeed.

dsquared,

I’m in agreement with Dan Rosenblatt. I don’t see much of a relevant difference between disrespecting the haka, and disrespecting other countries’ national anthems.

Part of the impetus for creating the new haka was that Ngati Toa had attempted to claim IP rights over the old one. In that context the NZRFU’s decision to claim copyright over `kapa o pango’ seems perfectly sensible, quite independently of any desire to earn royalties from it. (A claim which, incidentally, I’d not heard anything about before. Is it possible you’ve misunderstood the context here? Alternatively, could you point us to a reliable source for the it? A quick google didn’t seem to turn anything up.)

In any event, I think it’s pretty tenuous to argue that a claim of copyright in this context invalidates any claim to cultural authenticity. The two issues seem to me to be entirely independent. The fact that Ngati Toa attempted to claim IP rights over `ka mate’ didn’t magically render it `culturally inauthentic’. Nor does the fact that country singers claim copyright over their songs mean that country music isn’t an `authentic’ part of American culture. Why should this be any different?

I’m impressed that people think they can call an Indigenous traditional dance “faintly ludicrous”, or argue that people should moon it. Is it because of its connection to sport that the objections are voiced so strongly? Have Mrs Tilton, astrongmaybe or dsquared ever faced a haka in person?

Also the all blacks don’t have “exclusive” or “special” rights to a war dance – most of the island nations also have one. The fact that the european teams don’t is hardly the fault of the rest of the world.

I think dsquared’s just sour because the southern hemisphere (and particularly two countries) have rugby in a stranglehold.

Anyway, back on topic … I predict a NZ South Africa final.

so chris, do you think the final will be SA-NZ or SA-France? I had originally thought NZ-SA or NZ-France but now I really have lost confidence in the French side… I just hope that barbarian Chaball rips someone’s head off before they go out.

And as for England… surely the only question relevant to them is whether they will get past the group stage?

SA-NZ I hope. As for Chabal, he’s never really done it for me. Every time I’ve seen him play for Sale, he’s been pretty anonymous.

@32 I’m impressed that people think they can call an Indigenous traditional dance “faintly ludicrous”…

Interesting phrasing: not that people “call” it ludicrous, but that they “think they can call” it so. In other words, it is not the correctness of the judgement, but the appropriateness of it. The capital “I” in indigenous is revealing too.

I actually rather enjoy the haka, but give me a break – if a team wanted to wear oddly shaped hats, for example, I guess I’d respect their choice to do so, but I reserve the right to comment on the silliness aspect. (Was it the Romanians, about three football world cups ago, who all dyed their blond the night before a game, and ended up looking like utter goons?)

I also find the pompous self-appointed guardians of the dignity of “authentic culture” rather silly. Perhaps I shouldnt think I can call them that.

@stostosto: Maybe the Danes should go for a haka (or maybe an Inuit drum dance?). The Swedes’ only possible answer will be to do “smÃ¥ groderna”.

Otherwise, as a complete rugby ignorant I’m trying to figure out how the same team can meaningfully be compared with Germany and Brazil at the same time. Maybe this reveals some of the differences between football and rugby. That the Argentinians are a nasty bunch, on the other hand, does not come as a complete surprise.

Let’s get this straight – it’s not just “mocking” the haka that the All Blacks object to. On the last Lions tour, they claimed that they were allowed to dictate where the opposing team stood while they were doing it, who was allowed to be where, when and whether they were allowed to move during it, and even after O’Driscoll went to crazy lengths trying to understand the (ersatz, of course – there isn’t a single “Maori” tradition anyway) rules, they still did their whining bit about him “disrespecting” the haka.

Standing stock still with your warmed-up muscles seizing up, five minutes before a rugby game is no joke. How many other countries demand this sort of treatment for their national anthem.

@ 39
Silly hats = very silly analogy. Guilty as charged. I was going to put face-painting or something, but changed it.

The broader point is valid, though: the All Blacks’ demand for pious acquiesence underlies both the control of opponents on the field and the huffy putting-down of even the most mildly skeptical or ironic view of the whole routine.

Maybe we need to find a few experts in Celtic history…
The Italians could do some stylized crucifixions, I guess.

NZ and Aussie playing cricket, Italy and Japan completely baffled.

Conchis – no, I don’t concede that. The NZRU has in fact claimed royalties (from Adidas, Fiat and the makers of the Sony Playstation rugby game) for including performances of the old haka. They then got into a trademark dispute with a group of Maoris who challenged the trademark, and that’s why the new one was commissioned.

BTW, The plural of Maori is Maori. I’m sure you don’t mean it, but, for a variety of reasons “Maoris” is generally thought to carry a strong air of “look at the funny natives” colonial arrogance with it, and is generally avoided.

Conchis @50, re: plural form of “Maori”:

thank you for bringing this to our attention. I suspect it’s something few non-NZers would be aware of.

astrongmaybe, yeah I use a capital I in indigenous, punish me if you will for being willing to break a simple rule of capitalisation in the English language if the Indigenous people of my homeland ask me to. Perhaps for you it is “instructive” of something that I choose to use a polite word to refer to those who you, presumably, just think are stupid natives.

And when i said “think they can call”, I wasn’t trying to enforce some kind of PC mind control, merely pointing out how rude you sound. I don’t demand any pious acquiescence, see, but I think everyone can see how rude and stupid you look when you say things like that. It’s up to you if you want to continue looking rude and stupid, but don’t say you weren’t warned. I mean really, face-painting? Perhaps you weren’t aware of the Maori tradition in that regard either, or was that a deliberate little swipe too?

sg @53, of dsquared:

I am presuming you’re english

Daniel a Sais? His reaction to that suggestion should be interesting.

BTW, one usually uses a capital E in “English”. The indigenous people of that country ask you to.

I’m English and John M’s post is excellent. I don’t if the English team are arrogant at the moment, but only because they are so bad. It could be said that the fact we expect to be one of the best teams in the world is arrogant. I don’t see the Irish as being arrogant – just confident, and rightly so.

well to be fair, dsqaured, sg’s not the only who’s come across as pretty arsey on this thread, surprisingly or otherwise.

Daniel @23,

What part of thinking only European forms of celebrating identity are OK isn’t “racist and disrespectful to Maori culture.”

Can’t speak for anybody else on this thread. But I think what I want to say is that the haka (as preliminary to a rugby match — can’t really speak as to whatever other cultural significance it has, and recognise that it may have worlds of meaning elsewhere) is no more and no less silly than (say) the Welsh goat. You don’t want us to diss the Maori. I’m 100% with you there, actually. But don’t ask us to romanticise them either. One might even argue that’s its own, rather subtler form of racism.

BTW, I hope you don’t take away from all this that I dislike the haka. Very much the opposite. Indeed, I think about the haka a lot, and what it means for a country comprising settlers and natives (or, at any rate, settlers and much earlier settlers). One of the things I like about rugby is that it is organised on an all-Ireland basis. I have always wished Irishness might once more be as inclusive as Irish rugby is. It breaks my heart a little, then, that there is no functional Irish equivalent to the haka.

Well I’m afraid that a comment like that just betrays your “anyone but England” mentality

Sorry – I didn’t mean to make a secret of it in the first place. That said, much humble pie to be eaten after the shocking Irish display last night.

derrida, I really had no idea. I read a comment on an earlier thread along the lines of “you are barred, my son” and immediately assumed he was a London boy. It certainly didn’t occur to me to think that everyone in the UK with the surname Davies is automatically Welsh, but that could be because long years away from those isles have caused me to lose my understanding of the nuance of their parochialisms.

(In fact it didn’t even click after dsquared’s not-so-gentle rejoinder – only when I looked at the graphic at the top here and finally realised that it wasn’t a screenshot from a crazy 80s video game).

“I don’t demand any pious acquiescence…. It’s up to you if you want to continue looking rude and stupid, but don’t say you weren’t warned.”

I think this pretty much sums up my views of the haka debate too.

mrs tilton, in the original it was actually a typo, but I am quite happy to step into the breach over whether it is rude and stupid of me to deliberately insult the land of my “heritage”. You see, I spent half my childhood being abused for not being “English” enough (I had a funny accent) by the English. You can rest assured that all the various strains of heritage in the Isles (Welsh, Scottish, English and I have no doubt Irish) would have been lining up to give me a kicking when I was young, on account of my funny accent. Even though I grew up in Wessex my own father doesn’t consider me English, only British. You hint at the same with your ardent desire that Irishness be as inclusive as Irish rugby. I wonder why ever it isn’t? Could it be that Irishness itself is the problem? Because it certainly is for Englishness, and giving it an upper case E isn’t going to suddenly make it noble.

If sneering at vicious parochialism makes me rude and stupid then yay! I am glad to be so unenlightened.

No no! I am not concluding anything about any of the commentators herein, merely these parochialisms. Correcting my punctuation of english does not make Mrs. Tilton viciously parochial!