The handshake

Andreas Moser, I have deleted your offensive comment.

I suppose the late Cllr Michael Brown was guilty of premature anti-antimonarchism.

Sinn Féin have always been against the EU, in all its forms. They are just somewhat less explicit about their Marxist ideology than they used to be. And I too once shook hands with Martin McGuinness, so that’s me only one degree of separation from the Queen.

bq. Sinn Féin have always been against the EU, in all its forms.

Not quite all its forms. They fought the last European elections on a policy of joining the euro. I’m not blind to the reasoning behind that, which I would imagine is obvious to everyone. And I’m not telling you you’re wrong because you’re right, overall.

SF have indeed always been anti-EU. Their recent slogan was ‘be positive, vote no’ (Gerry Adams is always flanked by women. This is not accidental).
But they still expect the EU to continue to pour out the loans. They argued, apparently quite seriously, that there wouldn’t be any negative consequences if Ireland failed to ratify the fiscal treaty in the recent referendum and the money would still flow unimpeded. Like in Northern Ireland perhaps. Well, maybe yes, maybe no; I am deeply unconvinced.
People are starting to catch on to their singular views about public moneys in Britain. Their practices are attracting a bit more attention in the South recently.
SF haven’t quite caught up with all the principles of constitutionality (yet?). But the handshake is a good move all the same.

“They fought the last European elections on a policy of joining the euro.”

I missed that Bert – it would have been a NI/UK policy position (obviously) and as such passed me by. God bless them but they really are totally shameless (as Niamh’s links further illustrate).

I agee with the tenor of the post and “rea” above…and the wearing of green showed a different kind of class.

Rea and Patrick – exactly so. The Queen already made a number of important symbolic gestures during her visit last year. But it’s very important in this particular photo that neither should seem to be condescending to the other, and I think this is how it is being played.
Ciaran – SF are on a long march through a swathe of institutions, and they aren’t too scrupulous about it either. They clearly aim to replace Fianna Fáil, long the dominant party in Ireland, which suffered catastrophic defeat in the 2011 general election; they’ve already done for the SDLP in the North.

Bert Im going to have to strongly dIsagee with you there on pretty much all counts. Simon Jenkins quoted Conor cruise obrein to the effect that the peace process would end when the protagonists started to crave respectability in middle age. Certainly it’s hard to see what tremendous difference there is between the current dispensation and the sunnungdale agreement . Yet the same feckers how brought done sunningdale are quite happy with the agreement now that they get there bums in ministerial mercs. I don’t see the economic success of the tepunl

Bert

I can’t really claim any expertise, so am open to correction, but I would have thought the most important factors were the infiltration of the paramilitaries by British intelligence agencies, combined with the slow political progress of those that genuinely wanted to end the war, both within and between the various actors. I wouldn’t have thought southern social changes and economic prosperity were that important a factor. Once again though, I’m open to correction.

“as much as I loathe SF, the Independent has pursued a pretty solid campaign of condemnation against them for a while now.”

I agree, the endless strawmanning of Sinn Fein must be the most tiresome feature of Irish political life, and a useful way of diverting attention from implementing any reforms that might actually be relevant. (Btw – Do you not write for the Sindo? Would you not bring it up at the next editorial meeting?!) (And just let me add the obligatory Sinn Fein are a joke, which is true, if largely irrelevant)

What Rea said. It’s right for HRH to be forgiving publicly, but I’m much more impressed by her than by McGuinness here. It’s not like she actually controlled policy against SF.

@rf Apologies – didn’t mean to imply you did. I have written on them but not published yet…

“Handshakes for slow learners. But better late than never.”

Indeed. How long did it take the British establishment to cotton on that the six counties wasn’t just as British as the home counties. after all?

@ rea

I’ve never voted for Sinn Féin, and never will. But magnaminity is going both ways – Queenie being the head of the British forces and establishment that created this mess, her son being the patron of the very same Parachute Regiment which murdered unarmed civil rights protestors, which event brought a young Martin McGuinness to join the Provisional IRA. But mentioning that of course spoils the smug narrative.

@ Daragh McDowell

If SF raiding the Dáil printer supplies ‘reveals’ them to be “petty thugs” in the eyes of the Indo, what does that make the FF/FG/Lab politicians who spam me with endless Dáil-letterheaded mail all year around? Just a thought.

“They fought the last European elections on a policy of joining the euro. I’m not blind to the reasoning behind that, which I would imagine is obvious to everyone. ”

…they regard it as another way of causing billions of pounds worth of damage to the City of London, this time without needing to use unmarked vans?

…they have a historical fondness for large unaccountable institutions run from Germany that cause avoidable suffering and misery for millions of people across Europe in the name of unifying it, and they thought this might look better than trying to team up with the Nazis again?

*stepping-stone

I have an OT question – I saw Moon last night for the first time. I seem to recall a CT post somewhere that actually mentioned this film, can anyone remember what it was (may have been actually a comment/comments to a post, either)

Don’t like sectariansim, but you guys act like Sinn Fein and the Provos had no public support during the Troubles. Of course, they did, and there are reasons for that which make you too nervous to discuss. I mean the whole Bobby Sands M.P. (hardly a pacifist mind you) thing kind of settled this question of popular support.

This post could have been about understanding the reality of Northern Ireland in the Troubles . Instead it is just feckless tongue clicking.

@EWI – oh FFS. There’s a difference between an allowance for mailshots being allocated and used, and taking 50K worth of toner cartridges (and subsequently claiming you’ll donate them to a charity, and having to be shamed into doing so…)

Ciaran, RF –
Sorry for not responding sooner.
I was out watching football. ¡Ay caramba!

The only time the thought “George W Bush has done the right thing here” ever crossed my mind was when he responded to a grubby pub killing by stopping Gerry Adams swanning around Washington for St Patrick’s Day, as had become his habit. You’re right that the leadership’s hunger for the perks of high politics was a strong motivating factor, was widely understood, and was widely used as an incentive to draw them away from violence. As an aside, I can’t say I’m thrilled that the centre parties that did so much of the early work have ended up losing out so comprehensively to the former hard men. The SDLP in particular (who, by the way, were consistently pro-European).

The contrast between Sinn Féin and the Scot Nats is interesting. In Scotland, Europe was the land of milk and honey at the end of the nationalist rainbow. Indeed, they’re just now hitting a spot of trouble trying to reverse their way out of a longstanding commitment to join the euro. In Ireland, by contrast, Europe was the thoroughly mainstream religion of the main parties of government. I’m too lazy and a bit too drunk to check, but I think I’m right in saying that for a good two decades, between 5 and 10% of Irish GDP came direct from the EU budget, each and every year, through the CAP and later the Structural Funds. When Ireland got rich, one of the key pillars underpinnning the inward investment of the Celtic Tiger years was access to the Single Market (the other was low corporate tax rates, obviously nothing to do with the EU). Europe meant wealth, and it also meant the advance of secularism, an international outlook, an openness to cultural influence, and an increasingly relaxed confidence about Ireland’s place in the world. None of these things were a help to those advocating violent separatism.

You’ll notice that none of my explanations claim direct cause and effect. Europe set the context, and the influence of Europe doesn’t exclude a role for other factors. I have to say though that a wartime victory for the security services doesn’t appeal to me as a theory. A preference on all sides for that kind of deep state guff is one of the things that prevents Italy from being treated seriously as a country. I’m sure if you spoke to a spook they’d encourage you to believe it. Who’s to say though?

Ajay, the Shinner euro stance is a puzzle, and your theories are excellent. EWI is closest with his/her final one, though, I think. It would serve to unite the island of Ireland, at the expense of ties across the Irish Sea.

“I’m too lazy and a bit too drunk to check”

You’re a surprisingly articulate drunk. I’d just be incoherently baiting Ajay.

Just to clear up, I wouldn’t have gone so far as to say a wartime victory for the security forces; but it was always ‘a limited war’ that the main political players on all sides knew they couldn’t win, it was just about when the time to make a deal would come. Perhaps what was happening in the Republic had some relevance, but I think the communities just became war weary, the paramilitaries less effective, and there was the bones of a political deal to build on with the political will in Ireland, Britain and the US. I’m not sure the example the Republic set was all that important, (and how does it account for all sides being willing to bring it to an end), although I accept the point, just to a much more limited degree.

“Who’s to say though?”

S**t, we should have just asked Niamh.

@32 stepping-Tone, surely?

I didn’t ask if he was a taxi driver, though.

rf, actually what I would like to write something about at some point is truth and justice institutions, lustration processes, and informal approaches to muddling through. They’ve all got different conditions to make them feasible; they’ve all got costs as well as benefits.
McGuinness standing for the Irish Presidency was a clear bid for auto-lustration. It didn’t work, for the reasons Darragh McDowell succinctly outlines. But it set a marker for their intentions to move into the mainstream in the South, hoping that time alone supplies enough distance from their past actions.
SF have had to become a normalized political force in the North if there was to be any political progress at all. McGuinness’s chumminess with Ian Paisley and now with Peter Robinson, which required a good bit of movement on all sides, is in my view a thoroughly welcome development, whatever ‘Purple’ @31 may think.
I agree that internationalization on several fronts (EU membership, US engagement, changing British-Irish relations) has been important in changing the framework. My colleagues at the UCD Institute for British-Irish Studies have done a great deal of work on these themes.
I am continuously impressed by people who have suffered terrible losses from IRA violence to be willing to support what it takes to move things on. And by the willingness of the vast majority on all sides to accept the legitimacy of the Police Service of Northern Ireland and other core institutions.
It’s still a very odd polity and a very odd society. But it is vastly better for the politics of the peace process, however imperfect this may be.

HTML edit fail in post 44 , apologies.

@niamh

McGuinness standing for the Irish Presidency was a clear bid for auto-lustration. It didn’t work, for the reasons Darragh McDowell succinctly outlines.

I can not help feeling that you are letting your visceral dislike of Sinn Fein get in the way of your political analysis here. There is no lustration process in Irish republic (or any real need for one, though the the organs of INM constant whining about Garda Gerry McCabe might have you believe otherwise) and the presidential campaign of McGuiness was not part of some search for respectability, it was simply an attempt to broaden Sinn Fein’s geographical range.

McGuinness did place third in the presidential vote after all.

@Niall McAuley

There most certainly is a lustration process ongoing in the Republic. At one time, SF representatives were not even allowed to speak on TV, and RTÉ is still as anti-SF as it can get away with before it gets boring.

The Irish national broadcaster is simply on the establishment right (not unlike the Irish Independent), I think much of the current animus against Sinn Fein is better understood when viewed as bourgeois/creditor class solidarity then as some debate about whether breaching the states monopoly on violence can ever be forgiven.

The question is how long SF will have to wait before being regarded as mainstream, as FF, the Workers Party and other off-shoots of various IRA splits eventually were.

As mentioned the period of absolution necessary to enter the establishment is more a less a function of how far to the left from the establishment position one is. Ireland’s political class (along with most of Europe’s) are now so far to the right that Sinn Fein may up being our Die Linke. No time is long enough to forgive Marxist thought crime.

“I think much of the current animus against Sinn Fein is better understood when viewed as bourgeois/creditor class solidarity then as some debate about whether breaching the states monopoly on violence can ever be forgiven.”

Sure, that’s one thought. Different analysis I ever heard was by a guy who was convinced that any white Christians killing other white Christians had to be due to a plot driven by non-white/non-Christians. That is the beauty of multiple realities, each can be correct in explaining the situation to someone …

The idea that the Right Wing establishment is anti-SF because Marx doesn’t really stand up when you consider that SF has been in power in the North for years without any actual Marxism happening.

@Daragh McDowell

Yeah, when you dismiss outrage over the murder of an unarmed policeman as ‘whining,’

Yup, whining – pathethic, opportunistic, disinegnuous, nauseating whining mainly inspired by INM and their political fellow travelers on the right. The same set of reactionaries so keen to try and coopt the word “disappeared” from the victims of Chile’s right wing dictatorship (its a common trope: “Ground Zero” anyone?).

Lets lay it out.

Just in terms of the police force Northern Ireland saw thirty times the levels of the killings as in the Republic and while we expect their relatives and friends to cope with the settlement that the peace process offered the Irish Independent harps endlessly on about just two categories of victims.

1 Northern Catholics killed by the IRA as informers whose bodies were hidden.
2 Southern police killed by the IRA.

These two sets of people constitute 0.6% of those killed during the troubles (and you will notice that none of them of them are protestants). How much comparative coverage do you think that your newspaper has given them in the years since the Good Friday Agreement as opposed to all the other victims?

The hypocrisy, the barely hidden appeal to sectarianism and the parochialism of INM is simply unbearable.

@Niall McAuley

Indo readers, on the other hand, think we should dig a Dundalk to Derry canal and fill it with electric jumping sharks.

Since that satisfies my desire for Keynesian stimulus policies I would normally agree with you however I must first ask you a question.

* Does the canal follow a bee-line between Derry and Dundalk?

For the record it does not matter which side of Dundalk the new robot killer fish waterway starts on

Thanks 26 and some others. Can’t stand your smugness NIAMH.

While mentioning the Queen: Maybe it would have helped if at some point in the last 40 years or so, the Queen had made a very strong very public statement expressing her disgust about so-called Loyalists claiming to murder out of loyalty for the monarch and the union? IMHO that would have been one instance where she could have made a genuine difference, and earned respect.

And while not mentioning Blair: huh? I always thought that Blair’s stance in the runup to the Good Friday agreement was one of the few (maybe the only) instances where He Did The Right Thing, and nobody is willing to give him credit? Crediting instead the EU, or even George W Bush??? What’s wrong with you guys?

“But I’m not British so it’s not my responsibility to call them out.”

Well to my knowledge, the Queen is British and did have that responsibility. Especially given that it is now seriously suggested that her shaking hands with McGuiness was an act of personal sacrifice on her part. Why not on McGuiness’ part who witnessed Bloody Sunday perpetrated and covered up in the name of same Queen? I’m neither British nor Irish but I have no time for the petty rewriting of history advocated by many posters here.

Piglet@ 61:
” I have no time for the petty rewriting of history advocated by many posters here.”

Me neither. Perhaps you will turn your scorn to

EWI@25:
“the very same Parachute Regiment which murdered unarmed civil rights protestors, which event brought a young Martin McGuinness to join the Provisional IRA” which contains massive, even Alpine if not Himalayan rewriting of history.

Young Martin McGuinness was at the time of Bloody Sunday already a leading member of the PIRA (and may be forgiven many sins since he later was of great help to HM Government in causing the collapse of the armed Republican movement in NI, if not the violent deaths of Republicans who obstinately supported that movement). But at the time he was causing the violent deaths of those who opposed that movement, and a fair few innocent civilians who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And what happened on Bloody Sunday was not exactly an attack on “unarmed civil rights protestors”. If you read the Saville Report you will discover that it was, in turn:
A peaceful, unattacked march in protest against internment of real or supposed IRA members.
A fairly violent riot against the British Army road blocks that prevented the protest march entering the city center – previously much bombed by M McG & Co.
A low-intensity firefight between republicans and the British Army, with the first shots fired by republicans.
Withdrawal of the still-peaceful elements of the protest march away from the city center.
Advance, as ordered, by elements of the Parachute Regiment to arrest remaining rioters; in most sections, arrests without casualties.
In one section, Paras made unauthorised advance into the Catholic Bogside area: ineffective opposition with occasional shooting by Bogsiders, absolutely unjustifiable firing by some Paras, many killed who had not been or were no longer involved in riot, only one of whom was carrying bombs.
In my opinion, whoever decided to launch Paras (not, by definition, nice or peaceful people) against lightly-armed rioters should have been courtmartialed.
But that doesn’t mean EWI’s rewriting of history is acceptable.

I did notice (and didn’t bring it up because it appeared too remote) the McGuinness mistake that EWI now acknowledged. However that mistake is truly a bagatelle (and obviously unintentional) compared to a statement like “And what happened on Bloody Sunday was not exactly an attack on “unarmed civil rights protestors”.”

That was exactly what it was and denying that disqualifies you Stephen completely from this conversation.

“Popular opinion”? There’s a soft spot for Liz in Eire & among northern Catholics? Really?

Better late than never? I would say, rather, Never until . . . .

Why in the world would anybody from Sinn Fein shake hands with the central symbol of the 850-year suppression of Sinn Fein’s nation until that suppression has been totally lifted from said nation? I’m not a supporter of violence now or in recent decades; and, although I believe violence was justified in 1915-1922, I believe Collins didn’t have a choice in 1922, even if I sympathize with the Republican’s feelings that they had been betrayed.* But reverting to tribal tugging of the forelock in front of the British aristocracy? Why?

*IMO, deValera was the worst thing that ever happened to the rebellion and the early Free State—a humorless, honorless, narcissistic theocrat. If ever God spared the wrong man, it was Collins dying while deValera survived.

It took the provisionals some 20 to 30 years to realise that actually the official ira was right and armed struggle was a cul de sac. So maybe in another two decades we’ill be welcoming mickey mckevit as the new nelson Mandela,when the real ira has a similar epiphany .
On the question of popular support, I think bobby sands may be an outlier , hunger strikes are an emotive one. It wasn’t until the peace process was well a truly bedded down that sinn fein over took the sdlp as the biggest party. I’ve a figure in my head that sinn fein/ ira had the support of about ten% of the northern population during the troubles .

SF’s position on the treaty is not insane. If Ireland had rejected the treaty, the Euro unravelled, the EU retrenched and Ireland was left out in the cold, SF would be delighted. All the more creative chaos for them to exploit and unseat the established parties.

My point is that Sinn Féin are not taking any risks.

If a risky policy is ignored by government, Sinn Féin can make a noise like they matter.

If the risky policy is tried and fails, hurray, the situation is worse and folks need an alternative, and with FF still in the doghouse, SF are it.

If a risky policy is tried and succeeds, hey, SF were for it before anyone else.

If, God, Mary Mother of God, Jesus, St.Jude, St.Anthony and all the Saints between us and all harm, SF get into power, then…

All bets are off, they never said anything about risky policies, because shut up.

See their record in the North for details on how that works.

Hey Niall ,
Yes that’s a reasonable. From what little I hear of northern politics they haven’t exactly started work on the hacienda.At the same time the constitutional arrangements are mighty peculiar up there. A fundamentalist conservative protestant party in coalition with an ostensibly left wing politically correct catholic party . I mean how would they even agree on a platform on spending and social issues. What actually powers does the government up there actually have I wonder? I don’t follow it so closely.

It’s really not an easy life being a female CT poster, as rf, Shay and piglet are happy to demonstrate.

75 wtf???

I shouldn’t bite but hard to resist. I have no idea of either Niamh’s or rf’s or Shay’s or your gender ajay, and you don’t know my gender, and why it should matter is beyond me.

Ireland should have voted no, if Sinn Fein were for a no vote they were right. Ireland (and greece, spain italy and portugal but I digress) would be better off leaving the Euro and devaluing… even if they stay in they should have played tough. Voting no would have been part of that.
Re northern ireland not my area of expertise but even in this informed and civil discussion there seems to be rather a lot of whataboutery – Olivers army, paras and provos all not very nice, shame people seem to vote for SF rather than SDLP now but then we voted for Blair who killed more in an afternoon than died in the history of the troubles so I try not to judge. Not entirely on the point if I ever had one but as someone who grew up in England I do think the change in English attitudes to the irish I have seen in my lifetime is one of the few concrete examples of sanity prevailing, I remember the most incredible unthinking anti irish racism was part of the warp and weft of ordinary life growing up in the 1980’s.

. I have no idea of either Niamh’s or rf’s or Shay’s or your gender ajay

I love being lectured about Ireland by someone who doesn’t know whether “Niamh” is a male or female name.

“I love being lectured about Ireland by someone who doesn’t know whether “Niamh” is a male or female name.”

Yeah, but not really. You don’t have to be able to differentiate every name by gender to have an opinion on a country’s politics.

Stephen

I haven’t read Saville, and don’t really want to get into this because you appear to be the mirror image of the one issue nationalist bores I’ve heard throughout my life, but EWI initially said:

“Parachute Regiment which murdered unarmed civil rights protestors,”

You’ve gone to great lengths to debunk this without dealing with the statement. Among the dead who was armed? I was under the impression they were all found to be unarmed? I’m willing to be wrong on that though.

From the bit I’v checked with Saville:

“it is at least possible that they did so in the indefensible belief that all the civilians they fired at were probably either members of the Provisional or Official IRA or were supporters of one or other of these paramilitary organisations; and so deserved to be shot notwithstanding that they were not armed or posing any threat of causing death or serious injury.”

Could you clarify?

Extremely convincing argument ajay. First I’m sexist for criticizing a female blogger, then I’m ignorant for not knowing she was female. But you have a point, nobody who isn’t fluent in Gaelic should ever venture to have an opinion about anything Irish.