What Did Pippin Tell Denethor?

well, Pippin gets to play the ignorant fool. Something he seems pretty well qualified for to me. So any questions that are too searching get greeted with a combination or ignorance, apathy, or embarrassed giggles.

Pippin blabs #1, #2, and #4 to Denethor, leaving out only Boromir’s confession that his will failed him and he tried to seize the Ring. He leaves out the identity of Aragorn, since a Ranger of the North is an entirely respectable member of the Company; Denethor seems unaware of Aragorn’s precise claim to be the actual no-shit direct male heir from Isildur. Being told that it is a Ranger alone is sufficiently alarming, since all Rangers share Númenórean descent. He does not know that this Ranger intends to claim the kingship but he suspects it is the case.

Pippin’s cover story is straightforward and mostly true – Boromir and the Ranger were to accompany the Ring-bearer for as long as they were traveling in the direction of Minas Tirith, and then both Boromir and the Ranger would head for Minas Tirith. The Prince of Mirkwood (i.e., Legolas) and Gimli of the Lonely Mountain would not even need to travel that far – they only initially agreed to accompany the Ring-bearer across the mountains (i.e., near the lost Dwarven territories) and then through Lothlórien. Thereafter Gandalf was supposed to make new decisions, keeping the pre-existing commitments of such highborn representatives in mind.

Later on – when Faramir returns to the city – there is a scene where they discuss the “mighty object” that Denethor believes Boromir would have brought to the city; Tolkien uses this scene to illustrate Gandalf’s superior assessment of Boromir’s character. Nonetheless Denethor clearly already knows of the nature of Isildur’s bane and expects Pippin and Gandalf to be unsurprised of this, so they did talk about it.

Denethor does not know that all the Dwarvern Rings have been taken or accounted for (Not even Gloin and Gimli knew this until Gandalf told them at Rivendell). Thus Pippin could pretend that the Ring they had was actually the one of the rings of the Dwarf Lords and that Bilbo stole it from Thorin Oakenshield.

To explain Isildur’s Bane, Pippin merely has to claim that Isildur was ambushed by Dwarves at Moria

As for the aim of the Fellowship, Pippin could pretend confusion or uncertainty, believing that the intent was to travel to Minas Tirith while bypyassing Saruman at Isengard.

Still makes him one hell of a liar though.

Pippin wiped back the drape of hair that had fallen in front of his eyes.

“So it was like a gap year, yeah? Dad wanted me to intern in the bank, but like that’s still going to be there after I finish uni*, so me and a couple of best buds strapped on the backpacks and hit the trail. First stop was the pub of course. Get a few pints in before we hit the trail proper. Also some of the buds wanted to hook up with this Gandalf chap. He’s some kind of guru, you know meditation and chakra and the meaning of Liffe† and sh-stuff.
So we got chased out of town, which was a bit naff. I mean, we hadn’t even bullered a restaurant. Think someone must have eyed up the wrong girl. In rural parts, it’s best to find out whose relatives are in the room before you start checking out the chiquitas. We met Guru Gandalf when we were on the run and he showed us to this brilliant place which was like, completely hidden. You need some special map and you get to this place which is like incredible and awesome, with the most incredible weed ever. To be honest it was a bit too tree-huggery for my tastes, although some of the buds really got into it. But…no beach? I mean, what’s that all about? I mean, a secret place that only a few people know about and you don’t have a beach. Hello. Someone missed a trick. And the food was a bit too foreign if you know what I mean. There are plenty of Elvish takeaways in the Shire but this was something else entirely. Most of us had to have more than one sit down session in the lav to contemplate the Rivendelly-belly question. There curries were hot, I mean proper hot. Too hot in fact. Certainly knew what is was to have a ring of fire after one of their vindaloos, if you know what I mean.
Anyways, we hooked up with some like minded peeps, Boromir being one of them. Good lad, handled a yard of ale like a natural. You really value someone like that when you are surrounded by people of the tree-huggery persuasion. We were going to check out the bungee jumping at Mirrormere. Not all that it’s cracked up to be, in my opinion. Scenic, yeah sure, but a bit tame really. If you’re passing by, yeah sure, but I wouldn’t go out of my way. Oh yeah, we visited some caves on the way to Mirrormere, nothing much, seen one cave you’ve seen them all. Then we stopped off at another so called “secret” paradise. Again no beach. That’s when we heard about the white-water rafting on Anduin. That is more like it, a bit of action.
Unfortunately we must have pissed off some of the locals Deliverance-stylee, if you get me. Suddenly there these oiks surrounding us, and they meant business, they were all tooled up, no replicas. Boromir did great. Man he can swing a sword. He was calling 911 on his horn but no-one came in time.

Say, we had some some righteous weed earlier and I’ve the munchies. Could you call out for some pizza? I’m pretty sure I missed breakfast.”

Denethor got Ingold to put an order in for pizza. It turned out that they were all a bit peckish so they ordered several large pizzas with the the garlic bread and the coleslaw.

“So,” said Denathor, looking keenly at Pippin’s face. “Diet Coke?”

“Are you mocking me?” Pippin’s looked the old man in the eye. “Full fat Coke of course. What do you take me for.”

Denathor sat back in his chair of stone. “Pray continue, my liege, I am most interested in your tale.”

Pippin produced a roll-up from under his tunic. “You don’t mind if I blaze up, Lord? It helps with the recollecting.”

The Lord Denathor nodded his head in assent. Pippin made himself more comfortable on the bean bag and continued in the recounting his tale.

* Oxford of course.
† Lothlórien Interbank Financial Futures and Options Exchange.

Why was boromir sent to the north in the first place?

“Why was boromir sent to the north in the first place?”

He had a dream, in which he was told:

‘Seek for the Sword that was broken:
In Imladris it dwells;
There shall be counsels taken
Stronger than Morgul-spells.
There shall be shown a token
That Doom is near at hand,
For Isildur’s Bane shall waken,
And the Halfling forth shall stand.’

Imladris is Rivendell.

Denethor had long suspected that Isildur’s Bane was that most fell of weapons, a private equity firm.

Denethor has a palantír, and hates Aragorn since their rivalry in the armies of Gondor in their youth.

Pippin could recite The Waste Land for all the difference it would make.

Niall @8

The Waste Land is relevant but not for the self-awareness it might awake in Pippin et al

“Am an attendant lord, start a scene or two”

If JRRT had to write the Pippin/Denethor scene, it would probably be a question of Denethor qualifying whether P knows anything worthwhile. Pippin qualifies out very early on, but Denethor keeps on with the questioning just to show Gandalf that he (D) can keep them there. Basically a pissing contest.

So he sent them out to score it for him, and someone heard maybe there was a dealer in the Mines of Moria. But that didn’t work out.

Turns out that Sauron was really Nancy Reagan, and this was the original War on Drugsâ„¢.
~

Pippin paused and then said:

“Actually, it’s about ethics in videogame journalism.”

Denethor nodded ruefully. “It is always the same tale, Master Halfling. Wizards and SJWs meddling in your affairs.”

Pippin wondered what single Jewish women had to do with it, but now his mood changed, for the Steward’s stewards were bringing in trays for the third breakfast of the day.

What would a LOTR thread be without a troll? Welcome, anon/portly. I’d say that in the Black Tongue, but I don’t really know it,except for what is engraved n the Ring.

And actually, even Tolkien’s attitudes on race are mixed. There are the embarrassing passages, but he also has the bit on the dead haradrim soldier, and he is clearly an anti-imperialist when writing about Numenorean treatment of people in Middle Earth, ( the Numenoreans became imperialists when they started their turn towards evil) and sides with the “wild men of the woods” against the Rohirrim who used to hunt them like animals.

Thusly dismissing anon/portly with an Epic Pooh-pooh…

Pippin was not at the Council of Elrond. It is not clear that Pippin knew the rhyme that Boromir and Faramir dreamt until he met Denethor. Regardless of whether he knew it or not, there is complete plausible deniability that follows from not being at the Council and not mentioning anything associated with the ring. A simple narration of the events of their travel would be quite possible. Should Denethor ask questions of why, Pippin could always defer to Gandalf as an affair of wizards. If he were to do that, it takes no great imagination to understand why Gandalf grew impatient that Denethor continued to question Pippin. The narrative could then be summarized as: (1) Journey to Rivendell to accompany Frodo; (2) Journey from Rivendell to support Frodo in the affairs of wizards; (3) After Moria, caught up in events.

“if only Tolkien had written the Silmarillion as a novel instead of as Old Testament 2.0”

Tolkien was going for Epic. You might as well complain that Les Demoiselles d’Avignon was a painting not a mint julep.

“The only book I’ve found so far to rival LotR as a bedtime read which is an actual pleasure, and not a chore, is LeGuin’s Earthsea. She does have a habit of listing off place names which, without a map to consult, is a bit challenging, but if you forge ahead (and remember how you pronounced Karego-At three chapters ago) all is well.”

I started reading “A Wizard of Earthsea” to my four-year old. Turns out it was a bit too scary for her. I’ll try again in a couple of years. Niall’s right about how good LeGuin is to read aloud though.

Oh and the ship list in the Iliad is pretty damn boring.

Donald at 23 Рperhaps pushdug Anon/portly -glob b̼bhosh skai would serve, h/t Grishnakh, and of course, the invaluable Ardalambion

Raising your children to be able to notice obvious racism and sexism: not hard.

(alternatively-alternatively, Faramir discloses that it is the Ring during his account of Frodo, and Frodo’s intended destination. But that seems out of character for Faramir, really.)

And while we’re talking about racism/sexism in LoTR, Tolkien’s dwarves were pretty obviously Jews, although more physically tough than the average Jewish stereotype. Maybe Israelis?

The “swarthy men of the east” stuff and the fact that the good guys have a pecking order determined pretty much entirely by blood is something that everyone over the age of 5 who reads LoTR notices. Most of us can register our distaste and still enjoy the books. Likewise every even halfway serious Lovecraft fan is aware of his racial issues but still enjoys Cthulhu Mythos stories.

It’s possible to be aware of the sketchy aspects of a work without being a preening bore about it.

#30 -“every leaf.” All of LOTR is filled with detailed descriptions of the physical world, which illuminates the psychological state of the characters. Pull out a volume and scan a page, and you’ll be amazed at how much of the text is devoted to description. Here’s a random sample, pulled after ten seconds of searching, from TTT, Book IV Ch. 1, “The Taming of Sméagol”:

“The cleft was longer and deeper than it seemed. Some way down they found a few gnarled and stunted trees, the first they had seen for days: twisted birch for the most part, with here and there a fir-tree. Many were dead and gaunt, bitten to the core by the eastern winds. Once in milder days there must have been a fair thicket in the ravine, but now, after some fifty yards, the trees came to an end, though old broken stumps straggled on almost to the cliff’s brink. The bottom of the gully, which lay along the edge of a rock-fault, was rough with broken stone and slanted steeply down. When they came at last to the end of it, Frodo stooped and leaned out.”

Another random example, from TROTK, Book V, Ch. 5, “The Ride of the Rohirrim”:

“Presently he came to an open space where a small tent had been set up for the king under a great tree. A large lantern, covered above, was hanging from a bough and cast a pale circle of light below. There sat Théoden and Éomer, and before them on the ground sat a strange squat shape of a man, gnarled as an old stone, and the hairs of his scanty beard straggled on his lumpy chin like dry moss. He was short-legged and fat-armed, thick and stumpy, and clad only with grass about his waist. Merry felt that he had seen him before somewhere, and suddenly he remembered the Púkel-men of Dunharrow. Here was one of those old images brought to life, or maybe a creature descended in true line through endless years from the models used by the forgotten craftsmen long ago.”

This is Tolkien’s standard technique: as the characters move through a landscape we are almost always given a super-realistically detailed description of what they saw and how they perceived it.

#34 – scariness and violence. In pure percentage terms, very little of LOTR is devoted to scenes of warfare, fighting, and threatening confrontations. The battle scenes are violent enough, and there’s plenty of suspense and derring-do in the Shelob episode and the like, but Tolkien has some of the most violent episodes take place off-stage. And in addition to the acres of description, the pages of LOTR are packed with verse, lowering the pace and the emotional temperature.

If you compare the percentage of screen time devoted to fighting and killing in the movies to the percentage of pages devoted to the same, you’ll see that the movies resemble the books more or less the way that a hyena resembles an Irish sheepdog – all the same parts are there, but, man, the proportions are different.

I suspect that hour long conversations were for Tolkien what a man coming through the door with a gun in his hand was for Raymond Chandler.

Isn’t it something like…

“I’m on a quest. Some kind of fucking quest. I don’t recall ever actually asking to be part of it. I thought we were going to have a laugh and see the world. But apparently the whole mission has got much bigger than we thought it was when we had the original planning meeting. To which I wasn’t invited, by the way. Did I mention we’re lost? Anyway for reasons I don’t understand, a simple exercise in destroying a weapon of mass destruction had turned into a global clash of civilisations and a whole load of otherwise uninvolved parties have been told that ‘you’re with us or against us’. The guy whose idea it all was seems to have totally disappeared and the only person who seemed to have a clue where we’re all meant to end up isn’t communicating. We don’t have anything like enough resources for our stated mission and nobody seems to have an acceptable answer as to how it’s all going to get paid for. Do you want to hear my story? I’ll tell you my fucking story….”

But, dsquared, Iraq would have turned out MUCH better if Cheney had been cast into a live volcano.

52: I never knew the GGK angle. Thanks!

28: Agreed that JRRT reads well aloud. I read The Hobbit aloud to my mom when I was 12, and I am such a sad nerd that I enjoy reading aloud some LOTR passages to myself, like Galadriel rejecting the Ring and the Lord of the Nazgul at the gate of Minas Tirith. I believe Tolkien, consciously or not, had the gift of writing with an ear for how his prose would sound. Try reading Lovecraft aloud and the contrast is sickening.

JRRT was a member of a group called Inklings who read their work to each other. This must have influenced the writing process.

Also there is a JRRT lecture where he talks about ‘cellar door’ in terms of the sound and beauty of the phrase. Clearly the sound of the language was important to him.

Doug has it right: the character of Pippin as drawn by Tolkien would be reluctant to lie in any circumstance. Also, recall that it was supposed to be difficult to fool Denethor and dangerous to try. Then too, we have textual evidence that when obliged to deceive, Pippin displayed little natural talent for it:

‘Aragorn?’, said Beregond, ‘Who is he?’

‘Oh,’ stammered Pippin, ‘he was a man who went about with us.’

But I think you underestimate one of Pippin’s best advantages, which was the weakness of the counterfactual. Suppose he had instead undertaken to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? How well would that have gone over?

“It all started with dear old uncle Bilbo, who had this magical ring that made him invisible. You know, like eccentric uncles often do. We thought it was just a run-of-the-mill Ring of Power, such as any Dwarf Lord or Nazgul might have, but it turns out its actually the One Ring, sufficient to plunge the Middle Earth into a second Darkness, to which none can foresee the end etc. Well obviously we couldn’t leave a thing like that just lying about – it really had to be destroyed. Unfortunately, there’s a snag about that, because its nearly indestructible; the only thing to do is to cast it into the Fires of Mount Doom. Mount Doom, as you know, is situated behind a wall of mountains, on a plain of ashes filled with pits. Pits, pits pits, and Orcs, thousands of Orcses. Location, location, location. Well really, its guarded by the Dark Lord’s many armies, any one of which would suffice to crush the combined forces of the West. So we thought we’d better send nine chaps to do the job. Why nine, specifically? Well there are nine Nazgul, aren’t there? So it stands to reason – inevitable, really. Of course, we made sure all the major stakeholders were represented. You know, a couple of Men, an Elf, a Dwarf, and an angel of Iluvatar. Admittedly we may have gone overboard with the Hobbits. Aragorn? Oh, he’s descended from the fellow that your ancestor usurped. His people have been living in the sticks and stifling their political ambitions for generations. But now that Gondor looks like being overwhelmed by the Black Tide, he thought the time was ripe to seize control and guide the ship of state as it sails into a second Darkness. After all, change is opportunity.

On an unrelated note, I also read it to my daughters. But it bothered them that there were so few women in the whole thing. (There are absolutely none in the Hobbit.) When I read ‘Merry’ they decided that it was ‘Mary’ and they forced me to change all the pronouns.

(They were delighted when Eowyn got to kick arse a bit.)

Actually, I’ve been thinking about deliberately seeking out an adventure story with a female protagonist to read to her soon. Tiffany Aching springs to mind, but oddly enough I think Pratchett would be lost on her at age 5 (oddly, b/c here I am reading her LoTR).

Doug (@58) may well be talking about Tom Shippey’s “The Road to Middle Earth”, which is a very interesting deep dive into the linguistic roots of Tolkien’s world.

Tragically, I heard Shippey speak just last week, and…it was like listening to Grandpa Simpson if old Abe had a PhD and was a UKIP member. A semi-coherent rant about how the world is going to hell in the proverbial handbasket (as evidenced by such things as the reduction in size of the British army and the (I sh*t thee not) ban on fox-hunting) with an occasional amazing interjection about (eg) the etymology of the word “sheriff”. His fundamental claim was that because there are only a dozen shiriffs (JRRT’s spelling) in all of the Shire that (basically) libertarianism is good. He was recommending an execrably bad book entitled “The Hobbit Party” by a couple of third-rate American academics that wants to be taken seriously despite committing howlers such as claiming that Bilbo ran all the way to Bree (!!!) to meet Thorin and Co on the morning after the party.

Anyone who can bear to have only 15 minutes of LOTR read to them at night can have Tiffany Aching read at night, Rob in CT. She will think the Wee Free Men are the funniest thing in the world. Also I suggest Sabriel and the sequels? SO AWESOME. Zoe is in Chiang Mai on a school trip reading it now.

Or rather, not Rivendell wherever they are heading. It’s been a long time since I read the book.

Sackville-Baggins is actually a Tolkien pun, sayeth Shippey. Sack = bag, and of course derives from the French. For JRRT “Sackville” would be a double dose of Frenchness, which (linguistically) is a bad thing (he bemoaned the Norman Conquest not for its political implications, but rather for its impact on his beloved Anglo-Saxon tongue.)