In the comments section of Chris’ recent post about a date, people have started debating whether it makes more sense to list the year, month or day first in a date. This discussion made me think about how different languages/cultures present names. In Hungary, “last” name comes first. To me this always made logical sense. After all, even in cultures where given name comes first (a practice that seems to be prevalent in most places I know) the order of the names gets reversed on certain lists to put the family name up front. This makes more sense, for example, when alphabetizing people in a group (e.g. in a classroom). So why does given name come before family name otherwise? Other than Hungary, I have heard in Japan family name is listed first, can anyone confirm that? Are there any other examples of such ordering of names?
{ 52 comments }
jamie 03.01.04 at 3:33 pm
Surname first is traditional across the Chinese speaking world, though that’s changing with westernization.
Chinese people in the US – or who have been educated there, or are influenced by US culture -tend to put their given names first. Chinese people in the UK have traditionally stuck to the surname first formulation, though less so in recent years.
I’ve found that name order in Chinese persons is a marginally reliable indicator of attitudes towards the West.
In Hong Kong, a lot of people seem to use a formulation where a Western first name comes before the family name which is in turn followed by the Chinese given name.
Russell Arben Fox 03.01.04 at 3:47 pm
The family name comes first in Korea, as well. I have found it interesting to note how different Korean immigrants to the U.S., from different generations, have handled the word order change. I have known Koreans that have completely Anglicized or abandoned their Korean names and name orders, and those that have insisted on maintaining their Korean name intact and in full. (Which presents a constant source of frustration on the part those trying to get such individuals to “properly” fill out forms or identify themselves; I’ve known at least a dozen or so Korean immigrants who have to daily remind their teachers and others that “Kim” (the most common family, and hence first, name in Korea) isn’t their given name.)
james 03.01.04 at 3:49 pm
yep, that’s right about Japan.
Chris Martin 03.01.04 at 4:01 pm
One of the things that surprised me when I moved to the U.S. from India was that many Americans refer to the last name exclusively as “last name” and do not know the definition of “surname.”
Even though “last name” is practically a synonym for “surname” I think it might be cognitively harder for people who use “last name” to adapt to places where the surname always comes first, e.g. China, Japan.
The problem comes to the fore in author indexing. For instance, amazon lists this book as having the authors Naoya Shiga and Shiga Naoya.
Mrs Tilton 03.01.04 at 4:08 pm
Verging off-topic, I admit, but Linnaean binomial nomenclature, in taking the form Genus species, could be said to put the surname first and the given name second. Sort of.
Bavarians, when speaking their vernacular, sometimes do the same, tossing in a definite article for good measure (e.g., Xaver Mayrhuber becomes dr Mayrhubers Xaverl). Not done in standard German, though.
Richard 03.01.04 at 4:14 pm
One of the things I’ve often idly wondered about is whether cultures which put surname first tend to have a more communal attitude towards life.
The formal ancient Roman naming system, for example, reflects quite accurately the (literal) patriarchy of their culture.
Mind, one of the greater oddities is that it’s quite common for men in Arabic cultures to take the name of ‘Father of X’ (as in the infamous Abu Hamza), which as far as I know is unique.
Scott Martens 03.01.04 at 4:25 pm
As far as I know, it’s the norm across Pacific coast Asia. It’s certainly the norm in Vietnamese as well as Chinese, Korean and Japanese. I think it’s true for Thai, Lao and Cambodian as well. In Indonesia, not everybody has a last name, so I don’t know. It is also the norm for at least some Bantu languages, although that may be driven more by local government standards than traditions. I don’t think it’s true in India, and I’m pretty sure it isn’t true in the Semetic languages.
You see it more and more in unofficial contexts in French too. Bylines are sometimes in family-name-first order, often accompanied by family-name-in-caps to eliminiate ambiguity.
It’s yet another variant global norm that isn’t a big deal unless, like me, you build machine translation software. It’s not, however, nearly as irritating as cultural differences in the use of “,” or “.” for the decimal place and for the thousands placeholder, or the way currency symbols get used – “10€50” versus “€10,50”.
Richard – last names weren’t widespread in Europe until the Napoleonic reform – and IIRC weren’t unversal until the 1960’s. So the historical evidence suggests that it isn’t really a factor.
Mrs. T, are you familiar with cladistic nomenclature? It requires species naming to go from the least specific to the most specific, leaving long chains of names with the interesting ones at the end.
Matt Weiner 03.01.04 at 4:26 pm
Off-topic in a different direction, don’t Spanish-speaking countries usually have names of the format Given name, Father’s family name, Mother’s (patrilinear!) family name? This occasionally foxes Anglo indexers and others; Shane MacGowan is always talking about “Lorca,” and as a teen I remember wondering why the newspaper called Daniel Ortega Saavedra “Ortega.”
Seva 03.01.04 at 4:38 pm
In Russia last name goes before last too.
seva 03.01.04 at 4:39 pm
oops, last name goes before FIRST name.
enthymeme 03.01.04 at 4:41 pm
Jamie,
I’ve found that name order in Chinese persons is a marginally reliable indicator of attitudes towards the West.
How so? What’s the correlation, if any?
I write mine in traditional order. What does that suggest?
Phersu 03.01.04 at 4:42 pm
In Icelandic, there is (usually) no last name at all, only First Name and Patronymic (X-sson or Y-sdottir).
Icelandic directories are ordered by First names first and then by Patronymics.
Mrs Tilton 03.01.04 at 4:56 pm
Scott,
familiar with cladistic nomenclature? Why, I sleep with a copy of Hennig’s Grundzüge einer Theorie der phylogenetischen Systematik under me pillow.
The general –> specific ordering you mention long predates Hennig, though. Cladism’s contribution is to insist that the nomenclature reflect phylogenetic history (hence ‘Invertebrata’ is Bad, whilst ‘Vertebrata’ is quite kosher). There’s no need to use the standard Linnaean hierarchy in cladistic systematics, but pretty much everybody does (though sometimes with odd little supplements of their own; I am forever tripping over groups like the ‘fused paracribellar clade’ or the ‘canoe tapetum clade’).
The Swiss, BTW, often use an apostrophe in place of a comma, where of course they ought to be using a dot. And may I just say how deeply annoying I find ’10€’ in place of ‘€10’? (Yes, I know the former mirrors what we actually say, but that is still no justification.)
john 03.01.04 at 5:00 pm
Chinese tends to order the qualifiers in an identity from greatest scope to least, such as family name before personal name, country then province then city, and year/month/day. I find it somewhat easier to follow than English.
The basic rule in the computer industry is that it is easier to parse from large to small (called big-endian), but it is more important to be consistent, as long as the fully qualified identity can fit in the available memory.
We all use both every day, such as phone numbers (big-endian) with email addresses (small-endian).
enthymeme 03.01.04 at 5:06 pm
Presumably some Muslims follow a patronymic system?
Osama bin Laden means Osama [son of] Laden. Or ‘binte’ [daughter of], in the case of females.
And Indians too, for e.g., Nanda s/o Kumar where s/o stands for ‘son of’. Sometimes I think s/o is dropped altogether and Nanda and Kumar are merged yielding Nandakumar. Or Raghu and Nathan are merged yielding Raghunathan. How does that work?
eszter 03.01.04 at 5:15 pm
For those engaging in the programmer discussion, note the follow-up post to this entry over at Educated Guesswork.
As for currencies, Hungarian puts the currency after the figure, so 100 Ft not Ft 100. (Ft stands for forint.) It’s logical in the sense that that’s how we talk about it, as Mrs Tilton mentioned.. and so why is that not enough justification?:)
Mrs Tilton 03.01.04 at 5:20 pm
Oh, there’s nothing wrong with 100 Ft at all. I referred solely to euros. And, as we all know, a foolish consistency etc.
Anyway, since Hungarians order their names in the opposite direction to other Europeans, surely your 100 Ft example confirms my assertion that it should be €100 and not 100€…
jamie 03.01.04 at 5:23 pm
“I’ve found that name order in Chinese persons is a marginally reliable indicator of attitudes towards the West.
How so? What’s the correlation, if any?”
I’ve worked in journalism in and about China for about 15 years. I find that if I’m going to speak to someone who puts their family name last, in the Western style, then it’s an indicator that they are more likely to be a) open to western cultural influences, b) more ambitious in terms of their career, or c) both, with the idea that a will help facilitate b in some way.
By marginal I meant “according to the laws of journalistic shorthand”.
jamie 03.01.04 at 5:25 pm
…and I should add that I’m referring to people from the PRC, or who have left fairly recently
dsquared 03.01.04 at 5:30 pm
If you ever meet a Welsh person who uses the Welsh patronymic “ap” instead of a surname, be aware that you are in the presence of a very ardent nationalist indeed …
mara 03.01.04 at 5:41 pm
In France too the last name goes first, usually in upper case. It’s commas instead of dots in decimals, and you put a comma after the street number in an address and a space in front of all punctuation except commas and full stops.
enthymeme 03.01.04 at 5:50 pm
Jamie,
Do they put their family name last even in the PRC? Now, I’m no cultural chauvinist – I mean, it’s fine to do so in Western countries as a matter of administrative convenience and/or to avoid confusion – you know, do as the Romans do and all. But I take a dim view of any Chinese who inverts the ordering of his or her name for no better reason than to ape Western form. Believe me, some people think it’s a mark of sophistication – some kind of indicator of “openess” to the West. I regard it as a complete lack of pride and respect for one’s culture.
reuben 03.01.04 at 6:19 pm
In English, isn’t it the case that though you share your surname with your family (usually), in the big picture (ie the entire population) surnames are more unique indentifiers than forenames? That is, there are more surnames than forenames, and the most common surnames (eg Jones) are less common than the most common forenames (eg Matthew)? Or am I talking bollocks?
What are the situations in other languages?
harry 03.01.04 at 6:20 pm
bq. Osama bin Laden means Osama [son of] Laden. Or ‘binte’ [daughter of], in the case of females.
Is this the origin of the archaic English colloquialism ‘bint’ (to refer to young woman, synonymous with ‘bird’ more or less, though it always seems a little more derogatory)?
JX 03.01.04 at 6:24 pm
It’s Western custom to honor an elder (or among Jews, the recently deceased) by naming an infant after him or her.
Chinese tradition considers this practice disrespectful of the dead. What the Chinese sometimes do is have what are called “generational” names. Chinese given names are usually two characters. If a family employs generational names, then all the children in a given generation will share a character in their given name. The generational name is often taken from a poem, subsequent generational names taken from subsequent words in the poem.
Phersu 03.01.04 at 6:24 pm
enthymeme:
Presumably some Muslims follow a patronymic system?
Ossama bin Laden’s father’s name was Mohammed bin Laden, not Laden.
Arabic names were originally patronymic but I don’t think they are anymore (like MacX, O’X, ap X, X-ian). But they still use concatenations of “ibn” for patronyms, especially for cheikhs and princes.
Russian uses real patronymics (X-vich/X-vna) before the Last Name but Icelandic may be the only language which uses patronyms and no Last names at all (except if you are a “recent” Danish immigrant).
Henry 03.01.04 at 6:25 pm
>Is this the origin of the archaic English colloquialism ‘bint’ (to refer to young woman, synonymous with ‘bird’ more or less, though it always seems a little more derogatory)?
As far as I know, yes (I’ve seen a couple of etymologies argue for this derivation, although of course I’m not an expert).
Joel 03.01.04 at 6:29 pm
The rule of general-to-specific ordering also applies to addresses on envelopes, at least for domestic mail, in Japan and probably elsewhere in Asia. So, for example, a letter might be addressed to Tokyo-to [= city], Minato-ku [= ward], Minami-Aoyama 2-chome [= district/street segment], 1-1 [= building + unit no.], Tanaka Taro [surname given-name].
alf 03.01.04 at 6:35 pm
English learners in China (prc) usually pick an English first name, (I think they picked this up from Hong Kong). They use it when introducing themselves to English speakers (e.g. David Wang or Amanda Li). This is quite useful as Chinese names are quite hard for English speakers to pronounce. A Chinese person living on the mainland would never use the English style for their Chinese name. People would just get confused, though it’s quite common to see them switch when they people immigrate to America.
Chinese students are quite creative in naming themselves. I have known girls named Man, cola, King root, Yolanda and several named apple. I’ve known two boys who gently had to be reminded that Ashley is largely a girl’s name. I’ve also known a boy’s named destiny, ice wolf, fee boy, Royal and the whole gauntlet of NBA stars; Kobe, Iverson, Bryant and Jason come to mind.
roger bandwidth 03.01.04 at 7:33 pm
The first name can be taken as an adjective which describes someone more precisely than the surname – he’s not just a Smith, but a Bob Smith. I wonder whether the order correlates to the placement of adjectives in the language? – in English the adjectives come first but in French (for example) they’re placed afterwards.
eszter 03.01.04 at 8:26 pm
That’s an interesting point, Roger. In Hungarian, adjectives come first. But the idea works in the opposite direction, I think. That is, the surname modifies the given name. I’m a Hargittai type Eszter if that makes any sense.:) More precisely, “i” in Hungarian is very common at the end of surnames. It has a similar meaning to “de” in French and “von” in German. So I guess in Hungarian to say that I am an Eszter from Hargitta you’d end up having to write Hargittai in front of the name whereas in French you’d say Ester de Hargitta and in German Ester von Hargitta. Hmmm… I’m not sure if this makes quite as much sense with occupations (like other languages, Hungarian also has a lot of surnames that mean various occupations).
As a sidenote, no, there is no place called “Hargitta”, but there is a place called “Hargita” and that’s where this name comes from originally. That is, you’ll find many more Hargitai’s and Hargitay’s (don’t ask) in a Hungarian phonebook than you’ll find Hargittai’s or Hargittay’s. (My family, by the way, has no link to the mountains in Transylvania by that name. My uncle changed his name in the 50s, a change my father followed, but we have no historical ties to this name.)
enthymeme 03.01.04 at 8:27 pm
Phersu, haha what a boo boo. You’re quite right about bin Laden, of course. So you’re right that Arab-Muslim names aren’t patronymic. I seemed to recall differently from Malay friends, and it seems that this was the source of my confusion:
“Malays do not have family names. They are known by a given name plus ‘bin’ [son of] or ‘binte’ [daughter of] followed by their father’s name. For example, the son and daughter of Jamal are named ‘Karim bin Jamal’ and ‘Fatimah binte Jamal’ respectively. When Karim has his own son, the latter will be named ‘Ahmad bin Karim.'”
Since (most) Malays are Muslims, and since the only thing in common between Arabs and Malays was religion, I assumed (wrongly) that the similar form of their names was due to religion. Apparently, that isn’t the case – so the patronymic nature of Malay-Muslim names does not entail the same with Arab-Muslim names.
Alf, don’t forget “Noodle”, “Ekin”, “Sammi” (female), and . . . “Hymen”.
Way weird, but not unlike that other mangled sub-strain of English that is Japlish.
novalis 03.01.04 at 9:14 pm
So, my parents tried to be strictly egalitarian — I have two last names, one for each parent. In practice, however, I go by the one listed last — that is, my father’s. This is problematic for a truly equal society, because it means that naming is patrilineal.
My proposed solution is that when two people decide to have a child, that the child be named with an amalgamation of the two parents’ names. So, if I were to have a child with Eszter, he or she would have the last name Turgattai or Harner.
I know of someone who changed his name upon marriage in this way, but marriage ain’t what it used to be.
Arthur D. Hlavaty 03.01.04 at 9:27 pm
The Hungarian practice of family name first comes from the Chinese, via the Huns, who were the ancestors of the Hungarians.
Rosa 03.01.04 at 9:41 pm
In my Crayola box, “blue green” was greener than “green blue”. Which lends credence to the first name as adjective/surname as noun theory.
But in most romance languages, adjectives come after the noun.
Someone said France uses the surname first. Really? In conversation, as opposed to telephone directories? It’s called “Charles de Gaulle airport”, and Le Monde’s front page refers to “Mel Gibson”, “Jean Bertrand Aristide”, etc. today.
I’ve never encountered it except for Hungary & among Asian friends.
Then again, Napoleon Bonaparte is “Napoleon” and Michaelangelo Buonarotti is “Michaelangelo”–are they just the historical equivalent of Madonna, or did the western way of naming people change?
jamie 03.01.04 at 9:43 pm
Enthymeme
I certainly know of a couple of staffers at the China Daily who put their Chinese given names first, and would guess that the practice is taking off with the younger generation to a certain extent.
Whatever it says about respect for one’s own culture, I guess it goes to show that callow attempts at sophistication are a universal cultural value!
Walt Pohl 03.01.04 at 10:24 pm
After reading several talk pages on Wikipedia, I’ve come to the conclusion that passionate adherence to conventions is a pervasive form of mental illness. There are people there driven to a white-hot fury about the correct way to capitalize mathematical theorems.
Enthymeme: Why does changing the order of one’s name really prove anything about a lack of pride or respect in one’s culture? Obviously it’s an affectation, but affectations is just one of those things people do.
Anyway, I don’t understand why people act like not having respect for one’s own culture is morally equivalent to clubbing baby seals. The right to think that your own culture is stupid seems like an important human freedom.
Matt Weiner 03.01.04 at 10:45 pm
Alf–
Ashley, like Courtney and Shannon, didn’t use to be mostly female–there’s Ashley whatsizname in Gone with the Wind, and there is a current NFL player named Ashley Ambrose I think (as well as a couple of Courtneys and of course Shannon Sharpe). So this could be a case of not doing your research in quite enough depth, like Ford Prefect in the Hitchhiker’s Guide.
novalis–
How do you get those names by combining “Hargittai” with “von Hardenburg”? :-) I’ve thought that the really egalitarian method would be to hyphenate the last names of the male-line and female-line descent.
Matt Weiner 03.01.04 at 10:47 pm
(I should add, I think it very unlikely that I will ever try to hyphenate my last name with anyone. I once dated a woman named Myers, which seemed like it could’ve lead to an especial disaster, as students of American lunchmeat can attest.)
Tim May 03.01.04 at 11:12 pm
Arabic names are complex. They’re composed of a fairly large number of elements, including patronymics and whatever the opposite of patronymics is (“father of …” – filionymic?). Originally, there were no surnames as such, and different elements have become surnames in different cases. This Languagehat post provides an overview and links to more detailed accounts.
drapeto 03.01.04 at 11:30 pm
Mind, one of the greater oddities is that it’s quite common for men in Arabic cultures to take the name of ‘Father of X’ (as in the infamous Abu Hamza), which as far as I know is unique.
well, it’s also true of ‘mother of’ – umm whoever.
…
Sometimes I think s/o is dropped altogether and Nanda and Kumar are merged yielding Nandakumar. Or Raghu and Nathan are merged yielding Raghunathan. How does that work?
i have never heard of this. i’ve heard of merging names but not merging the patryonimic.
…
I don’t think it’s true in India,
ML Vasanthakumari and RK Narayan are spinning whirls of ash.
It’s true of thamizh names.
Anon 03.01.04 at 11:54 pm
I certainly know of a couple of staffers at the China Daily who put their Chinese given names first, and would guess that the practice is taking off with the younger generation to a certain extent.
jamie,
Is this when speaking/writing in Chinese or English?
novalis 03.02.04 at 12:08 am
Matt Weiner, I went from four initials (DMRT) to one (N) when I stole that poet’s name. My father’s last name is Turner, in case you couldn’t guess.
I guess I forgot to add my other constraint: names shouldn’t grow too long, or they’ll end up abbreviated, which is what happened in my case. I don’t think abbreviation would have helped.
Apropos of this topic, fans of Steven Brust should consider the case of Bengloarafurd Ford….
Matt Weiner 03.02.04 at 1:54 am
Oh sure, I just figured I’d better top off a gratuitous Hitchhiker’s Guide ref. with a gratuitous Penelope Fitzgerald ref. (that’s how I know the man’s name was von Hardenburg).
eszter 03.02.04 at 3:10 am
I think my sister-in-law considered hyphenating her name. I can’t imagine hyphenating any name with Hargittai, but especially not one that’s three syllables, ten letters total..
alf 03.02.04 at 4:52 am
Ah, Gone With the Wind, of course, my Chinese friends love that movie. That’s where all the male Ashley’s are coming from. I still think it is better to suggest they change their name. If someone reads the name “Ashley Wang” they are usually going to assume it is a girl.
Jamie – Is that really the case? That would confuse the hell out of me. I would assume that the first charecter of their given name was their family name, even if they were talking in english.
Keith M Ellis 03.02.04 at 10:13 am
When I married, my (now ex) wife and I hyphenated our names together: McIntyre-Ellis. This was put on the marriage license and I subsequently changed my name for government forms, etc. and in daily usage. A friend of mine and her husband, both doctors, did the same thing, independently; though I don’t think they are as consistent regarding daily usage. In my case, this was while I was at a school where everyone is always addressed with their honorific; thus, everyone knew me as “Mr. McIntyre-Ellis”. Obviously, it was important to me that this wasn’t just a legal but also a practical gesture.
This is more common these days, although men rarely change their names (while women will hyphenate). My family thought this was somewhat odd, but they got used to it.
My scheme, of which I’m quite proud, is that upon marriage the couple take a hyphenated matronymic-patronymic name (first generation are forced to use a patronym or invented name in place of the matronym). The children take the same hyphenated name. Then, later, when the children marry, they keep their same-sex parent’s name and hyphenate with their partner’s same sex parent’s name. The end result is that females always have a true matronymic while males a true patronymic, so there is equity. Yet individual families with unmarried children have the same (hyphenated) surname.
My ex-wife and I didn’t have any children, so this hasn’t been put to the test.
(Incidentally, the “M” in “Keith M Ellis” is my middle name, which is “Martin”. My name was legally changed back to “Ellis” in the divorce decree.)
John Isbell 03.02.04 at 2:01 pm
My brother and his wife used different first names for their daughter for about ten years. They’ve settled on his – Oa – over hers – Elizabeth.
Napoleon is Bonaparte until he becomes Emperor, 1804. Emperors have this habit, like saints, knights, etc. Renaissance artists are probably making a statement, but it goes back to pre-Renaissance, I think. Duccio?
Bourbon apologists (Chateaubriand) affected to call the guy Buonaparte after Waterloo. Limbaugh would have approved.
Another Damned Medievalist 03.02.04 at 7:13 pm
Ah, Walt … now you know why most of the academics left wikipedia …
Istvan Aranyosi 03.02.04 at 7:41 pm
Very interesting. For better or for worse I was born in Romania (more exactly in Transylvania, which is not relevant now), and my personal subjective experience of the last 20 years or so is the following:
1. Last name/ first name: authoritarian relationships, like in elementary or high school, army (though I succeeded in avoiding army, which is still mandatory in Roamania !!!, for the last 10 years, without them catching me or my having to pay them any fines), etc., when you introduce yourself in this way and are addressed like: “Aranyosi!”
2. First name/last name: you are more or less an accomplished bitch.
3. First name: my favourite; nowadays this is the most frequent I hear myself being called by my (human) environment.
Mrs Tilton 03.03.04 at 11:40 am
Istvan
(as I am not a particularly accomplished bitch I shall not use both your names),
forgive my curiosity, but your name looks Magyar and I believe Transylvania is in that part of Romania that was once in Hungary and still has a large Magyar population. Do ethnic-Hungarian Romanians use the surname first, as in Hungary, or second? Or is it: (surname/given name) within the Magyar community, but (given name/surname) outside that community?
istvan aranyosi 03.03.04 at 4:22 pm
Yes, mrs. tilton, you’re right about my name and ethnic background. As regards names, ethnic Hungarians in Romania use the surname/given name scheme, just as those in Hungary, while ethnic Romanians the standard scheme, as the Westerners.
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