High School Diplomas

If the judgment were made outside the classroom, by external graders…

That’s fine–sounds like a neat idea. But it’s been tried (sort of) by school systems with standardized statewide tests. The teachers (or their union) HATE the tests. The parents complain about the test when Johnny doesn’t get an A. And any “external grader” who wasn’t relying on a standardized test would probably get hassled by parents as much as anyone else.

So, nice idea in theory, but the practice doesn’t look promising for American jurisdictions, at least.

Sorry – I’m a bit confused.

” In the end, the parent refused to be satisfied (having recalculated the grade herself) ”

What does this mean? Did the parent count the points, calculate the percentage, and come up with a different number than the teacher? Or did the parent have a different evaluation of the student’s work?

In the former case, one hopes that a pencil, some paper, and perhaps an adding machine could lead to a meeting of the minds.

In the latter case, I suppose a great deal depends on the student material in question. Surely the principal can handle this like the NFL. If the replay shows some obviously correct answers marked incorrectly, fix them and adjust the grade. If there’s no clear evidence from the booth, the ruling on the field stands.

I agree with everything Russell said. My point wasn’t that testing or strict curriculums are a bad idea, just that they won’t solve the problem Harry is complaining about, and if they did, they would probably be too unpopular politically to sustain.

A similar thing is happening in South Africa, albeit on a much larger scale. Teachers have more of a say in setting school-leavers’ marks under a new system of “continuous assessment”. Before, matric marks were determined only in the final (provincial) exams (except for things like English oral marks, which were tested by schools).

After the “reforms” were instituted, the matriculation pass-rate jumped from 48.9% in 1999 to 73.3% in 2003.

Among other things, black students get 5% added automatically to their matric marks.

The school-leaving certificate (which was not worth much anyway) has been rendered utterly worthless.

Tim — the missing detail is this. The student disputes whether a particular assignment was handed in. so there were two calculations — one assuming it got an F (missing) the other assuming it got the average of her other grades. On the latter, more generous, calculation, she would be 1% less than the threshold for an A. But, of course, the parent is right (for the reasons I mentioned) to think that is, in principle, negotiable.

redshift — you’re right and I’m wrong. The evidence simply isn’t there (anywhere, on my understanding) to support claims of graduation inflation. The mechanism I describe, though, would lead one to expect perpetual grade inflation, absent countervailing mechanisms. But you were right, I spoke carelessly. The evidence I gave, too, is anecdotal: its an anecdote you will hear from every single teacher and administrator who lives with the system, though. But, my aim was to point out that the system provides an incentive (and a pretty strong one) for such behaviour.

Yes, Robert, I realise there are feasibility issues in the American context, and despite agreeing with you and Russell that standards and testing can have benefits for lots of less advantaged schools, I’m not a big fan SAT-style tests. But AP is on growing, and the IB is a fine exam, which will probably become more popular as the undergraduate education market globalises. I also have a faint bit of sympathy for unions who resist apparently sensible changes on the grounds that they will be implemented and monitored by ill-willed incompetents. The lack of oversight of what goes on in the classroom by managers in many American schools is appalling — but given the competences of the actual management personnel in place it may be better that they leave classrooms alone.

“The graduates that have to spend four more years and thousands of dollars to prove to potential employers that they aren’t complete morons. If high school diplomas weren’t dispensed like candy to anyone who warmed a chair for four years, a lot of these people could start decent careers and even families when they reach adulthood, rather than four years later.”

Graduates with straight-A’s from my hometown’s top tier school district’s public high school (with no grade inflation) still can’t get a job worth anything. They are more likely to get into a high-ranked private college, or could simply enroll at Rutgers without breaking a sweat, but the fact that an 4.0 GPA from the school “means something” does not mean it is worth anything on the job market.

“The graduates that have to spend four more years and thousands of dollars to prove to potential employers that they aren’t complete morons. If high school diplomas weren’t dispensed like candy to anyone who warmed a chair for four years, a lot of these people could start decent careers and even families when they reach adulthood, rather than four years later.”

Graduates with straight-A’s from my hometown’s top tier school district’s public high school (with no grade inflation) still can’t get a job worth anything. They are more likely to get into a high-ranked private college, or could simply enroll at Rutgers without breaking a sweat, but the fact that an 4.0 GPA from the school “means something” does not mean it is worth anything on the job market.

As a parent of a 9th grader (First year of high school – 14 years old) heres my take on this.

1. The diploma itself is irrelevant, a basically worthless document.
2. The GPA is everything.
3. GPA is accumulated (for those not aware) from day 1 of high school, based on continual assessment as well as end of semester exam.
4. Initial college inquiries will be made based on a GPA derived from the first 5 semetesters of High school.
5. Homework is not marked equivalently – some assignments might gain 20 points, some 100 – A single major failure on the 100 point assessment could easily drag a GPA down .1 or .2 – A difficult number to make up over a short period of time. This could easily be the difference between acceptance and rejection by a college

5. Therefore any way in which a parent can drive up a GPA is fair game, and I am extremely sympathetic to this.

Harry — I may have sounded like I was coming down on you harder than I intended; my gripe is much more with the common run of criticism in this vein than with your analysis.

I agree that there are perverse incentives in the current system that encourage this sort of behavior, but I also think it has been encouraged by those who seek to undermine teachers’ authority for political reasons. Having seen the quality of standardized tests that have resulted from “accountability” movements in the recent past, and their perverse effects on the curriculum, I’m afraid I have little faith in their objectivity.

Developing effective tests is hard, and the political forces that are pushing for them often have a heavy anti-intellectual component, leading to test development being supervised by people who distrust experts in test design. Developing and scoring tests that effectively test knowledge, like the IB, is also expensive, and again, these tests are often pushed by politicians who aren’t inclined to spend the money to make it work. So instead we get easily computer-scored tests that emphasize rote memorization and warp the curriculum in that direction.

Perhaps I’m just cynical, but that’s my impression from the experience in Virginia, where I live.

I would be perfectly happy to see good tests as a component of mastery education (study with appropriate assistance until you pass the subject. ) That would be real education reform. But I don’t see that happening, and absent that, I’d rather not have a plan that passes off authority from teachers who at least are required to have certain qualifications and have some responsibility for the education of the students they’re judging, to tests and test designers who are rarely asked to provide either to the public.

“the missing detail is this. The student disputes whether a particular assignment was handed in.”

Thanks for the clarification. That is a complicated problem. On balance, if this is the teacher’s error, it seems the benefit of the doubt should go to the student. And yet, I have this “friend” who tried that trick successfully in high school a few times as an alternative to actually doing the assignment, so I’m inclined to doubt the teacher slipped up.

————

“any way in which a parent can drive up a GPA is fair game”

I have a friend who, upon getting his first teaching post, used to tell us he was preparing for this conversation with a coed looking for a way to drive up a GPA:
Coed enters office, skimpily dressed, hints suggestively at ‘favors’ for a better grade. Friend says, raising his eyebrow, “would you really do anything for a better grade?”
“Uh huh.”
“Anything??”
“Mmmm, yes.”
“Would you … study?”
(The conversation, to his dismay, did come around eventually, but he was too terrified to go with the script. “Um [stammer], I’m sorry, that’s the um, I mean, I can’t change the, um, no. Nothing. Sorry.”)

But I have to say, I find Mark’s comments disturbing. Ways which include tutoring, buying extra books, enforcing study time – any way a parent can improve a child’s *performance* seems to me fair game. But any other way to drive up a GPA? Threatening the teacher? Coercing the principal? Unleashing lawyers? I dunno, doesn’t sound like fair game to me. But I’m not the parent of a 14 yr. old, so my principles have yet to be tested.

“Are there lots of goodies that high school graduates can get that drop outs don’t?”

Just as a data point, I dropped out of high school at age 16. From ages 18 to 24 I simplied lied to various white-collar employers, none of whom evidently ever checked. After that I started telling the truth, since I already had plenty of pertinent work experience.

I don’t know if this would still be possible, but I suspect so. The extent to which records are checked is much exaggerated.

(I also suspect my experience would have been considerably different if I hadn’t started out as a white middle-class male with decent speaking and writing skills.)

This remound me why I will never again teach any group whose typical member is under 20 years old.

At least in the most important subjects, there should be annual standardized tests that determine the student grades. Or, so that the other ordinary schoolwork would still have some meaning, the standardized test could set an upper limit for the student’s grade, which would still be computed normally based on homework and ordinary exams.

Yes, there would be problems. But there probably wouldn’t be so many young adults graduating from high school with the reading and writing ability of a ten year old child.

Of course, as a long-range cure, North Americans might want to consider moving to an education system where only about half of the kids continue to high school, and the other half moves to either job market or trade schools. This would also calm down the high schools considerably and better prepare the students there for higher education.

A corrective to Thomas R’s remark, above (for anyone who didn’t check his link):

According to the article he cites, black students in South Africa don’t automatically get points added to their scores; rather, students *who are not native speakers of the examination languages* — English or Afrikaans — get a 5% bonus, to account for the disadvantages of being examined in a second language. Yes, basically everyone whose first language isn’t English or Afrikaans is going to be black — but the deficit corrected for is a linguistic one, not a racial one.

Whether or not this should be continued is another matter, of course. But language of instruction in South Africa’s still kind of a touchy subject, I would imagine…

A corrective to Thomas R’s remark, above (for anyone who didn’t check his link):

According to the article he cites, black students in South Africa don’t automatically get points added to their scores; rather, students *who are not native speakers of the examination languages* — English or Afrikaans — get a 5% bonus, to account for the disadvantages of being examined in a second language. Yes, basically everyone whose first language isn’t English or Afrikaans is going to be black — but the deficit corrected for is a linguistic one, not a racial one.

Whether or not this should be continued is another matter, of course. But language of instruction in South Africa’s still kind of a touchy subject, I would imagine…

yes, rv. agnos, but perhaps that is because high school graduates are a dime a dozen. Its all about supply and demand. Even with college grads, getting an employee that is any good is often a shot in the dark. Some employers are starting to differentiate based on the school and the difficulty of the degree, just because they want to know that you accomplished something you had to work for. That is the true indicator of an employee’s ability.

Outside grading I think could help, but it needs to have some impact on the teachers themselves. not soley on the teachers, but teacher performance does need to be more measurable. I think that is a part of the reason for the resistance by the teachers unions. I have my issues with standardized tests, the overseer has too much potential for incompetence or bias, as mentioned by harry. There is also the issue of who sets the “standards”, and why do they set them at the said levels. I believe some people are better at certain things than others, so the standards would have to have some flexibility.

The bottom line is tho, that free rides dont help anyone. Giving a student that has not performed well a diploma not only cheapens the performance of those that worked hard, but it throws that kid that didnt work hard out into the world unprepared. Thats pretty cruel if you ask me.

limberwulf:
Teachers are evaluated regularly. I don’t know what would make it more measurable, but student performance includes the additional element of student effort. That’s where the slippage is.
There is no political benefit, and potentially great political risk, in pointing this out to parents. That, and the great amount of money lobbed at politicians by the Big Business that is standardized testing, is why said testing is likely to be the only “solution” on offer for some time.
This arrangement will have to get much, much worse before the general population will demand a meaningful solution.

A corrective to Thomas R’s remark, above (for anyone who didn’t check his link):

According to the article he cites, black students in South Africa don’t automatically get points added to their scores; rather, students *who are not native speakers of the examination languages* — English or Afrikaans — get a 5% bonus, to account for the disadvantages of being examined in a second language. Yes, basically everyone whose first language isn’t English or Afrikaans is going to be black — but the deficit corrected for is a linguistic one, not a racial one.

Whether or not this should be continued is another matter, of course. But language of instruction in South Africa’s still kind of a touchy subject, I would imagine…

North Americans might want to consider moving to an education system where only about half of the kids continue to high school, and the other half moves to either job market or trade schools.

Well, it used to be that way, years ago, when high schools had shop class and vocational programs. Then we decided, collectively, that everyone should go to college, and that people who took auto mechanics classes were losers, so the vocational stuff took a hit in many places. But still, in some schools, there are multiple effective tiers with kids headed different places.

I’d point out that the multi-tier educational systems in Europe (actually I’m only really familiar with Germany) have a similar problem: the German government has decided that as many students as possible should go to college, so the kids at the “lower tier” vocational high schools (who are now relatively few compared to the college-bound) are stereotyped as losers and criminals (which reputation they unfortunatly often live up to), and can’t get jobs. Meanwhile, the college grads are struggling to get jobs as plumbers.

I don’t have any answers, just a lot of complaining.

Some comments from the trenches:

Sure, social perception of the credential now discounts it in favor of GPA as the measure of competency. This would not be a problem if the standards for high school diplomas were stricter and higher. And the standards for high school diplomas would be stricter and higher were it not for the pressure from parents and “student advocates” to release students from the requirements of proving competency and curriculum mastery.

In New York State, the results of the June 2003 Math A Regents set off a firestorm. The test was too hard, complained parents and students. Teachers were shocked by the rigor of the test, sayeth the commentariat. Loud grumbles and pressuring later, the passing score was set at a scaled score of 55, which corresponded to a raw score in the mid-forties out of a total possible score of eighty-five points.

This January, students taking the Math A regents, in order to score a scaled 55, necessary for local diploma credit, needed to get 28 points out of 85 points on the examination, according to the NYS Board of Regents.

This was the result of public pressure – the Regents were afraid of enforcing standards, truckled under, and now, to pass a test that says the student has had the equivalent of three semesters of high school algebra and geometry, a student must make the statistical average for guessing on multiple choice questions, and scribble mandatorily partially scorable ineffabilities on a long answer sheet.

And for that, our department got an 85 percent local-credit passing rate.

When I look for meaning in my job, this nonsense is what I find.

Want to talk about classroom grade-inflation? Talk about institutional standards grade inflation first, and then you’ll get sympathy from me.

Grade inflation happens when people want to mask inadequacies in the system. Parents are an interested party, because they want to shield their children from the pernicious effects of bad grades. Teachers and school administrators are an interested party, because they want to shield their jobs from the pernicious effects of aggregated bad grades. Bodies putatively interested in enforcing standards are an interested party, because they don’t want to be seen as falling down on their regulatory jobs.

And I have students incapable of single digit arithmetic-by-hand tracked by mandate into algebra courses that they must inevitably fail. I have a set curriculum that I must follow, which completely fails because my students can’t read above a second grade level, and I can’t do remedial math during class time because that would violate state law.

And at the end of things, students who score the statistical mean for guessing get passing grades in my course, by mandate of state law.

The problem is not with grade inflation by classroom teachers.

Some comments from the trenches:

Sure, social perception of the credential now discounts it in favor of GPA as the measure of competency. This would not be a problem if the standards for high school diplomas were stricter and higher. And the standards for high school diplomas would be stricter and higher were it not for the pressure from parents and “student advocates” to release students from the requirements of proving competency and curriculum mastery.

In New York State, the results of the June 2003 Math A Regents set off a firestorm. The test was too hard, complained parents and students. Teachers were shocked by the rigor of the test, sayeth the commentariat. Loud grumbles and pressuring later, the passing score was set at a scaled score of 55, which corresponded to a raw score in the mid-forties out of a total possible score of eighty-five points.

This January, students taking the Math A regents, in order to score a scaled 55, necessary for local diploma credit, needed to get 28 points out of 85 points on the examination, according to the NYS Board of Regents.

This was the result of public pressure – the Regents were afraid of enforcing standards, truckled under, and now, to pass a test that says the student has had the equivalent of three semesters of high school algebra and geometry, a student must make the statistical average for guessing on multiple choice questions, and scribble mandatorily partially scorable ineffabilities on a long answer sheet.

And for that, our department got an 85 percent local-credit passing rate.

When I look for meaning in my job, this nonsense is what I find.

Want to talk about classroom grade-inflation? Talk about institutional standards grade inflation first, and then you’ll get sympathy from me.

Grade inflation happens when people want to mask inadequacies in the system. Parents are an interested party, because they want to shield their children from the pernicious effects of bad grades. Teachers and school administrators are an interested party, because they want to shield their jobs from the pernicious effects of aggregated bad grades. Bodies putatively interested in enforcing standards are an interested party, because they don’t want to be seen as falling down on their regulatory jobs.

And I have students incapable of single digit arithmetic-by-hand tracked by mandate into algebra courses that they must inevitably fail. I have a set curriculum that I must follow, which completely fails because my students can’t read above a second grade level, and I can’t do remedial math during class time because that would violate state law.

And at the end of things, students who score the statistical mean for guessing get passing grades in my course, by mandate of state law.

The problem is not with grade inflation by classroom teachers.

The principal isn’t considering the long-term implications of giving into demands from parents. He is just encouraging other parents to do the same. The principal should adopt an absolute policy of not considering grade challenges from parents. Better yet, the principal should lower the kids’ grades when their parents complain. That would shut them up.

As a student at a top tier college, I am not an unaffected case study in this circumstance.

Let the free market decide the value of a person’s education. It will decide regardless of your efforts, and realistic change in our educational system will never happen as the majority of Americans are far too compassionate to accept an education system based upon merit. My personal opinion is that those unable to succeed should be left in the dust.

Selective colleges have the mobility to adapt to the inflation of grades, and have done so. Every student at my college had excellent, if not perfect, grades in high school. Other qualities distinguished them from their classmates: test scores, ap scores, and extracurriculars.

I do not believe grade inflation has affected the top colleges to the extent that their diplomas have become meaningless.

There is no “right” to work. People will continue to try to improve their chances in the job market, and educational inflation is the inevitable result.

Ultimately, what harm is done? HS diplomas are meaningless — so what? You and your child’s employability is no concern of mine.

The market will correct for this inflation. Public policy is ultimately ineffectual. The only harm done is to the rich and the corporations of America, who foot the bill for public education (anyone who wishes to argue about pays most of the taxes in America is free to show their stupidity. That the rich pay more is statistical fact, and a natural result of wealth. Public schools in rich towns are better because of more lucrative property taxes). Oh no! Not another form of expensive entitlement! And one even less effective than SS and Medicare. While dramatic change in our public education system could be beneficial, the current system is not all that harmful, and such change does not really need to happen, as if it could in the first place.

You can’t help those who can’t help themselves. Let the weak fail, and celebrate those with ability. The market does exactly this, and until society does, problems such as this educational inflation will continue to arise.

And to teachers: I have exactly no pity for you. You chose your job, and you did so aware of how hopeless and awful your situation would be. If you weren’t aware, then you have been justly rewarded for your ignorance. Every time one of my classmates talks about becoming a teacher, I supress a smug grin. I can imagine nothing less fulfilling and satisfying than wasting one’s mind trying to teach dolts. At least at the college level, some of your students may reward you with their honest interest in the subject matter.

Every time one of my classmates talks about becoming a teacher, I supress a smug grin. I can imagine nothing less fulfilling and satisfying than wasting one’s mind trying to teach dolts.

After reading things like this, I’m reminded that teaching must be truly God’s work because it is so unvalued by the rest of the world.

This argument, interesting though it may be, is probably as old as grading itself. It is pervasive at the University level as well as the High School level. Perhaps it is time to think of new ways to assess what students do, and perhaps we now have the technology to do this. The student’s work is the proper measure of the student’s ability, not the teacher’s grade upon it. I suspect that a single DVD can contain a complete record of everything a high school student produces in four years..scans of papers complete with teacher comments, .jpg or .gif files of student works of art, .wav or .mpg files of student performances. Admissions committees (and employers) can evaluate for themselves what students can do. They can sample the total record any way they find convenient, and make the process transparent by making their sampling process explicit. Why not? Why does assessment continue as if there has been no change in technology since the invention of the punch card?

Mike

“I am highly sceptical that if managers had more powers to dismiss they would be competent to use them (because they do not know how to distinguish the bad from the good)”

Perhaps, but that’s a problem with the kinds of people who currently end up as school administrators, it is not a fundamental problem. And after all, we don’t need to make fine distinctions here, we only need to eliminate the really bad ones (and reward the particularly good ones!). The teachers all know who they are. And the students by and large do, too. It’s not hard in principle to determine who is not sufficiently competent, it’s just hard in principal.

“Furthermore, teaching is just one of numerous professions in which low performers retain their jobs…. There are numerous mediocre ? and downright bad ? doctors, lawyers, dentists, etc, still in business, and they get paid more.”

Right, but lawyers and dentists and such don’t have managers to evaluate them.

Here in Ontario we’ve recently had in the news parents suing the government because their children cannot graduate without passing a Grade 10 level standardized literacy test. (See http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040209.wlitt0209/BNStory/National/ for more details.)

Aside from the underlying implication — that high school graduation is a right independednt of the statutory requirements for that graduation — I find the idea that the students who fail these fairly minimalist tests (after the opportunity over two years for several retries) will be able to pursue any goals based on later academic achievment dubious. The relative stress of university as compared to high school is likely to prove at least as great a barrier.

First, the biggest problem is that we as a society have failed in our previous commitment to provide a public education for all of our citizens. Some kids can get it because they live in the right neighborhoods; some can get it because they’re extremely smart or motivated and they find a teacher or teachers who help them. Many get nothing except a chair in which to sit.

Second, why, exactly, would someone want to be a teacher? Well, there are many reasons, and they’re good reasons, but, again, we do not value this job sufficiently. We do not pay well, and, in many places, we do not demand enough. (I think this has its roots in the notion that teachers can be “managed” in Taylorist fashion, that administrators have to run things, that teachers cannot come up with a curriculum, for example. See Marjorie Murphy’s book, “Blackboard Unions.” Or the first half of my dissertation, for that matter.)

Third, a high school diploma did used to mean something. Certainly in my parents’ generation (they graduated from the same high school I did, in 1948 and 1952, or thereabouts) it meant something, i.e., you left having learned something. Now, however, unless the kid is going to college–in which case the gloves are off, gotta fight for every last GPA point–it’s a holding pen that demands little and delivers less. And not because teachers are worthless–most, I suspect, would LOVE to be able to really teach–even teach the kids who aren’t going to college (or maybe especially them).

But without a commitment to public education for everyone, it’s only going to get worse.

Ruth:
“According to the article he cites, black students in South Africa don’t automatically get points added to their scores; rather, students who are not native speakers of the examination languages — English or Afrikaans — get a 5% bonus, to account for the disadvantages of being examined in a second language.”

Here’s a link to the article again.

When reading it remember:
1) Almost all South Africans who don’t speak English or Afrikaans as a first language are black
2) Almost all South African blacks don’t speak English or Afrikaans as a first language.

My claim that “black students get 5% added automatically to their matric marks.” is therefore correct.

“…but the deficit corrected for is a linguistic one, not a racial one…”

Despite “overwhelming evidence” that writing exams in a second language is not a disadvantage, the South African government insists in adding 5% to these students’ marks. The deficit therefore seems more likely to be racial (blacks still have to deal with the legacy of “Bantu Education”).

To Jay: I was accepted to Harvard, most likely because I am a legacy. I chose Bowdoin over Harvard primarily for the difference in size, but the role my legacy status played in my admittance was a factor. As for test scores, the truth is that a policy like Bowdoin’s aids people with very high test scores, like your’s truly. When the admission’s board has two applicants that are similar, the one who submitted scores will almost always get preferential treatment, barring legacy or athletic recruit status. I attended public school, not a fancy prep school. I was admitted to the major NESCAC school’s, except for Williams. I chose Bowdoin for the food, its Gov’t department, and its location by the ocean.

To Tim: I would imagine the experience of teaching at a liberal arts college to have rewards beyond mere monetary compensation: the enjoyment of teaching a subject one cares about to students who also care seems to play a larger role than salary.

To NYC: Bowdoin is a fine institution. I understand that my opinions are provocative if nothing else, but I do not find them adequate basis for your remarks about my college. Here, I represent my opinions, and I do not claim (or even imagine!) them to be shared by most of my classmates.

My views are not the result of my time spent in college: I am from New Mexico, one of the poorest states in the country, and went through one of the worst public education systems, period. My teachers were, with one exception, lazy and worthless. Although they may claim the highest principles behind their “motivation” to teach, the day to day behavior exhibited in the classes did not reflect this. Rather, they seemed tired, worn, and entirely apathetic with regards to the students.

At Bowdoin, I find the greatest wealth in my peers, and the second greatest in professors who delight in their work and their students. I cannot understand why anyone would prefer to teach high school than college, given the choice.

I understand that teaching in public high school is thankless, frustrating work. But you chose to become a teacher. You chose this profession aware of the difficulties involved. Someone who complains about hardships they have chosen freely deserves mockery.

Can or have you made a difference in a student’s life? Have you mentored a student, and given him/her a desire for success that they could not find elsewhere? And is that experience, if you have had it, as rewarding as I would imagine?

Why then would you choose to teach in an environment where your pupils are mediocre, and talent rare, but worst of all, not even necessary to pass?

As for those who believe that only slight differences exist between State U and the top tier private colleges: you are wrong.

What professions have you entered, where your gpa does not count?

The top schools offer several huge advantages, the most important of which (imho) are:

1. The alumni network. If I want to Ibank for First Boston, for example, I have a long list of people that I can get in touch with. Preferential treatment is practically guaranteed.
2. The general atmosphere. I am now surrounded by the kind of people I will most likely spend the rest of my life interacting with: highly motivated intellectuals. The confidence I have gained in my own ability to compete and succeed with them is invaluable. The general attitude at Bowdoin regarding postgrad endeavors reflects this confidence.

3. Graduate school does figure into many careers, particularly as education inflation continues. My gpa will not have to be nearly as high as it would at a State U to gain admissions into the top grad schools.

Of course, there are excellent state schools. I do not mean to discount them: they offer exactly the benefits I described above.

Where you go to college matters, even if only for personal reasons. For example, I paid approx. ten dollars for beer last semester, thanks to school funded social houses. I believe that will compare favorably with any state university.

I do not find public school teachers admirable in the same sense that I find martyrs foolish.

“If I want to Ibank for First Boston..”

See, if you went to Haaaavard, you would sneer at people who don’t want to work for Goldman.

If you went to the school I went to, however, you’d know that there’s no such thing as “First Boston” any more.

bq. Public education is a social experiment that has been in place for the last 150 years. It is a failed experiment: it fails to usefully educate the masses

Yep? Do you have an example of a wealthy country with any measure of social mobility without public education? Without such a control its very hard to say the experiment has failed. I hope you’re not a social science major, or I’ll start revising my high opinion of private universities.

“Yep? Do you have an example of a wealthy country with any measure of social mobility without public education?”

Well, I have an example of a country that was steadily getting wealthier and had social mobility without public education – the United States of America before the institution of public education.

Do you seriously believe that our advancement would have stopped in its tracks since then if we had never instituted public education?

Free urban public education created a free pool of literate workers able to manage information flows and master technical skills essential to the development of an commercial-industrial economy. Literate labor made modern social politics possible, created mass consumer culture, and gave birth to our enormous pool of skilled and educated professionals.

I do believe that universal free public education had everything to do with economic and cultural progress in the United States over the last 180 years – and I find it very hard to credit seriously a viewpoint that that doesn’t accept that commonplace.

Without public ed — a vast American Ukraine? Carlos, you there?

Yo, HST in NYC.

Claudia Goldin has studied the effects of US public education in the 19th and 20th centuries extensively. Simply put, the vast expansion of ‘human capital’ in the US over the past two hundred years is primarily owed to the public school system. Private schooling, barely a blip.

Goldin is one of the best economic historians of our time; while this silly blogster Ken is obviously unfamiliar with the history of public schools in the US and equally obviously wants to get into a fact-free, ideological debate about it. Too bad for him.

C.