This may simply be a sign that I’m past 30 and culturally marooned, but most of my favourite bands haven’t done anything good since 1994.
Which is not to say popular music in general has been rubbish since then – it hasn’t – just that if I was completely honest about it, I’d rather some acts stopped putting out records that I feel compelled to buy out nostalgia, consistency, and a slight feeling of guilt that I’ve moved on and they clearly haven’t.
I’m tired of going into record shops and coming out with mediocre albums of artists who were once truly or almost great. So, reluctantly, I’ve recently compiled my list of bands/artists whose work I will now stop buying just because they were good ten years ago.
This list mostly consists of:
Anything by anyone who was once in the Pixies or Throwing Muses and, by inference, the Breeders
Frank Back is out. Teenager of the Year was released in 1994 (hard to believe, I know) and it’s been downhill since then. Indulgence doesn’t even begin to describe his subsequent music. Then again, I never really liked FB – too abrasive and not appreciative enough of Kim Deal – so that’s an easy one.
Kim Deal.
This is tough, because I still think she’s a goddess, and she’s the only rock star I ever really wanted to be (apart from the bass player in the Violent Femmes, but that’s another day’s blogging). The essentials have never changed – I saw the Pixies play in Paris this summer and was driven demented by the video camera person who clearly thought she was some sort of aged backing singer, until she lashed into an awe-inspiring Gigantic that even put manners on the Chilli Peppers’ callow and insolent crowd.
But let’s face it. Kim Deal hasn’t done anything interesting or good since 1994. And the Breeders’ Title TK (2002) sounded like it still might as well still be 1994, except without the benefit of Tanya Donelly’s pop hits. And the Amps, while a laudable rehabilitation project for Kelly Deal, were just dull, even live.
I’m glad Kim Deal’s still around and making buckets of money from re-forming the Pixies. And Last Splash will always have a spot in my Alltime Top 10. But I’m not buying any more pointless and tuneless re-treads of stuff I listened to when I was 22.
Tanya Donelly. This is harder than it should be as she was easily the cheesiest out of the two sister acts that ruled early 90s alternative music. Some people think the Throwing Muses’ finest moment was University, recorded in 1995 after Tanya Donelly had left the band to form Belly. But I think the Real Ramona was the beginning of the end. Kristin Hersh’s whining went down a lot better with a dose of TD’s trademark sugar.
I loved Belly, even if they were a slightly guilty pleasure on account of being so darn poppy. Those girls were the disco queens of alternative music. They had a sound big enough to rock a stadium and moves that made Mick Jagger look restrained. I saw them playing in Slane in 1996, and they were the only band I’ve ever seen that made people laugh out loud and punch the air at the same time.
But TD’s solo work since then seems fragmented, haphazard and slight. It’s music I think I only enjoy for the traces and past associations it throws up. Have you ever watched a film or listened to music with someone else and experienced it through their eyes and ears? When I listened to TD’s 2002 beautysleep with my sister Nelly I was, frankly, embarrassed.
And then there’s Kristin Hersh. Whose first solo outing in 1994, Hips and Makers, was drop dead gorgeous. But who spent so much of the 90s whining and dirging away till all sympathy and enjoyment was gone. I got her 2001 Sunny Border Blue recently, and was just so annoyed at myself to have shelled out the price of a decent meal on yet more repetitive and charmless complaint.
But if Tanya Donelly is the Throwing Muse I’ve probably already given too many chances to, Kristin Hersh may be the one who deserves another. After all, Sky Motel wasn’t bad and Fifty Foot Wave does sound intriguing.
On the whole, though, whatever this crowd had going in the Pixies, Breeders and Throwing Muses, it really seems to have been more than the sum of its parts. We all know well that most artists released to solo work from the compromises and restrictions of being in a band tend to get soppy and tendentious. (Though I do think Stephen Malkmus of Pavement is going from strength to strength. Thoughts?) But it is a little sad to think the brightest lights of 90s alternative are strumming their respective ways to mediocrity.
Actually in my new spirit of ruthlessness I’ll probably avoid buying anything released by 4AD that’s not a re-release of something from the label’s prime in, oh, 1994. Does anyone know the story of that label’s sorry decline?
But you can see this isn’t a proper Top 5. It only has four names so far. It’s really too dreary and guilt-inducing to be dismissing the bands of my twenties. And the other obvious candidates who are still milking their former greatness and my wallet – REM, The Cure, Beastie Boys – probably don’t require much explanation. And, though I can hardly believe I’m saying this in public, I never really liked Sonic Youth anyway.
{ 73 comments }
Andy 11.21.04 at 10:19 pm
Well who needs to buy new releases when great stuff like Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain –> L.A.’s Desert Origins is coming out? Erm, at least that’s what I tell myself. The solo work of the various New Pornographers has been, on the whole, very good – even after the first New Porn album. I don’t have any Destroyer (Dan Bejar) but Neko Case and Carl Newman (as A.C. Newman) have released some great stuff. The Slow Wonder is up there with Matthew Sweet’s Girlfriend, for example.
George Williams 11.21.04 at 10:30 pm
Good overview of these musicians, their connections, and the current state of their output.
Maybe you should check out Cat Power?
“I never really liked Sonic Youth anyway.”
Blasphemer!
Actually, I stopped listening to them around 1994 or so, feeling like they had fallen far from the heights of Daydream Nation. But I’ve liked the recent stuff (e.g. Murray Street and Sonic Nurse). Still, given the list of favorite music you have here, perhaps even these would not be your cup of tea.
Chris in Boston 11.21.04 at 10:42 pm
I agree with your assessment of the 4AD crowd. As for what killed the label, I’ll say that Britpop probably had a lot to do with it. That, and the obvious chilling effect on street cred that having teenage goth kids buying your music will have.
I’ll add a few others that I’ve bought out of love of their previous work mid-90s and have been sorely disappointed:
Liz Phair – self-titled, didn’t even like whitechocolate
Suede – Head Music, they haven’t even bothered to import their newest one into the US
Blur – Think Tank is the most embarrassing album I’ve heard in a long time
any solo Pavement member – want to like Preston School, because Malkmus keeps slagging S.S. but they’re pretty boring
Mark Robinson’s solo electronic crap – and I even liked his other side projects
latest Magnetic Fields – OK, he’s a genius and deserves to coast if he wants
last Sleater-Kinney – swimming against critical consensus here, but I found it cheesy
At least there have been a few good albums from veteran indie rockers in the last couple of years: Guided by Voices’ last, Supergrass, Cinerama/Wedding Present. And Spoon get better with age.
Ken C. 11.21.04 at 10:51 pm
“I’d rather some acts stopped putting out records that I feel compelled to buy out nostalgia, consistency, and a slight feeling of guilt that I’ve moved on and they clearly haven’t.”
But, why do they *need* to move on? If what they’re doing is simply a re-tread of what they did ten years ago, that’s one thing. But this almost suggests that just because they’re old, or not trendy, they’re not worth buying. Well, ok, sure.
Moreover, so what every tune/production uses the same formula? What if you happen to like that particular formula?
“And, though I can hardly believe I’m saying this in public, I never really liked Sonic Youth anyway”
Ah. One thing that I think I’ve finally abandoned is the notion that I *ought* to like something. There’s some music that I tried to like, pretended to myself that I liked, and diligently listened to. But really, I never really enjoyed it, and never will, and so, finally, to hell with it. Large swaths of jazz and classical are simply closed to me, for example.
A corollary that I have a sneaking suspicion of, but shouldn’t really conclude, is that other people suffer from this problem. I must assume that they really think or thought that Bob Dylan is a profound poet and musical genius, that modern art “installations” are actually interesting to them, that they can bear listening to free jazz. Well, OK, sure.
alkali 11.21.04 at 10:57 pm
I’ll add:
The Replacements (meaning, in present terms, Paul Westerberg). I wanted to *be* Paul ten years ago. I’m glad that he’s still recording and generally happy, but I just can’t listen to his new material for some reason.
Bikini Kill (meaning here Le Tigre). I loved every BK record and really wanted to like Le Tigre. Alas, I don’t.
wcw 11.21.04 at 11:22 pm
I dunno about ignoring Malkmus completely — I thought “Jenny and the Ess-Dog” was a great song, even if it is more a seventies narrative rocker than anything especially noteworthy.
Jon H 11.21.04 at 11:33 pm
” I don’t have any Destroyer (Dan Bejar) but Neko Case and Carl Newman (as A.C. Newman) have released some great stuff.”
FYI, Neko has a new live CD out.
Spoilt Victorian Child 11.22.04 at 12:04 am
Alkali, I hope you’ve at least got Tim/Let It Be/Pleased to Meet Me. After that, I agree, there’s not much you really need to hear.
I’m afraid I’d add the former Talking Heads to the list, though again that’s only if you’ve already got their first seven albums or so.
Of course, the Fall never get old.
dsquared 11.22.04 at 12:53 am
I’ve often thought that Bob Dylan and the Fall present an interesting challenge to the Bayesian learning community, in that both of them have seemingly been playing their instruments (I’m thinking in particular of BD’s harmonica) for longer than I’ve been alive, probably at least 150 days a year for three hours at a stretch, without noticeably getting any better.
fnook 11.22.04 at 1:37 am
Interesting point about Dylan and the Fall. I guess if you’ve been doing it long enough, mediocre harmonica playing can be viewed as quite an accomplishment.
Thought about writing a Sonic Youth honorific, but suffice it to say that I really like that third song on Murray Street (Rain on Tin?).
I don’t much like Frank Black’s latest offerings either (except for that song about the destruction caused by the St. Francis dam disaster), but that won’t keep me away from the Pixies reunion tour in NYC on Dec 17! Looking forward to channeling the early 90s in the moshpit.
bob mcmanus 11.22.04 at 1:41 am
We are bodies that wear out, we are spirits that tire, mellow, lose motivation and ambition. I see no reason most artists are not mental athletes, reaching a peak at 25-30 and then declining, any further productivity based on the original inspiration.
I have thousands of CD’s, none by artists over 40-45. Rock & Jazz are particularly debilitating, most burn out in their thirties. My BB King stops at 1970, for instance. My Ellington around 1945.
alkali 11.22.04 at 1:50 am
spoilt victorian child writes:
Alkali, I hope you’ve at least got Tim/Let It Be/Pleased to Meet Me. After that, I agree, there’s not much you really need to hear.
I like everything through the first Westerberg solo album and a couple soundtrack singles he did about the same time. After that, I want to like it, but I just can’t.
Laura 11.22.04 at 1:53 am
Another good in 94 and sucks now — Shane McGowan. The Pogues were the best back then. Saw them twice. Now Shane is on tour again, and he’s just a washed up old drunk.
Brian 11.22.04 at 2:04 am
It does seem to be an iron law across all musical genres that musicians peak around 25-30 and then they start repeating themselves.
In the past they used to die rather routinely around when they’d start running out of steam, although that doesn’t seem to happen as much lately. Think of all the great jazz musicians who didn’t make it to 40.
I try to get into a new genre of music every 3-5 years rather than rerunning the stuff I listened to when I was 20, except for an occasional nostalgia wallow.
JennyD 11.22.04 at 2:04 am
Who will you buy?
andrew 11.22.04 at 2:04 am
By contrast, a few artists that mature without sucking:
Fugazi
Nomeansno
Yo La Tengo (up until the last one, but they’re allowed some stinkers)
In terms of female singer/songwriters/rockers, if you haven’t heard Nina Nastasia, then – congratulations! – your future just became much brighter.
http://www.mp3.com/Nina-Nastasia/artists/427879/summary.html
Tom DC/VA 11.22.04 at 2:09 am
Bands usually are more than the sum of their parts: the Beatles are the best known example. Obviously we have about as much of an idea why collective creativity occurs as we do about individual creativity. But with a band I think there is the hope that if we just glued the pieces back together properly, we would get the same great result again. Silly, but then again I’m still waiting for the followup to Loveless.
Keith M Ellis 11.22.04 at 2:19 am
Great post, Maria, and nice discussion. But try being about ten years older. Almost everything I listened to in high school I can’t stand, and couldn’t as long ago as fifteen years. I think I’ve stuck with the early 90s alternative music longer than I should have—I suspect that I’ve finally gotten too old to know how to learn to appreciate new music. But, generally, I don’t think I’ve ever, at least since the few years out of high school, bought records from bands only out of nostalgia and loyalty. When they stop doing things that appeal to me, I move on. Of course, the problem here is that I don’t think I’m moving on much these days, so the result is that I’m listening to less music.
ogmb 11.22.04 at 2:33 am
I’ve often thought that Bob Dylan and the Fall present an interesting challenge to the Bayesian learning community
Add Jandek to the list.
Jackmormon 11.22.04 at 2:54 am
Bob,
Your burn-out model of music really scares me, and I’m frantically trying to come up with some counter-examples.
What about Tom Waits? And for that matter, Beethoven? Gainsbourg’s Reggae album (though admittedly not his 80s stuff)?
Okay, my list of musicians who produced good and innovative work late in their careers peters out there for the moment. Anyone care to supplement?
Spoilt Victorian Child 11.22.04 at 3:02 am
You might as well criticize Mark E. Smith for his poor diction.
As for artists peaking young, it mostly seems to be a problem with rock. Cole Porter didn’t even really start until his thirties, and Berlin and Bernstein both continued into old-middle-age. Leonard Cohen and Ornette Coleman both also started around thirty; Miles Davis was 34 when Kind of Blue hit, Coltrane was 35 when he recorded A Love Supreme, etc.
The only rock-ish example I can think of is Tom Waits; he was in his mid-30s for the Island Trilogy. I think Bowie turned 30 in time for Low and Heroes, though.
bob mcmanus 11.22.04 at 3:02 am
Pixies
The AMG main Pixies pages lists several dozen bands to look into, each reviewed and discussed:a great resource.
I still listen to music as much as I did thirty years ago, 8 hours a day plus. Side note to my comment above, maybe we peak as listeners at 25 ;). When I hear new stuff I tend to like it, including contemporary music and I deliberately limit myself in order to understand well what I am listening to. You can go wide, or you can go deep. The Pixies page leads to bands of the sixties, and bands playing now, and bands playing at the time of the Pixies that weren’t quite as good. If you alternate merely good stuff with the excellent, the excellent can sound fresh again. Listening is a skill.
Course some people simply form emotional attachments to bands and songs, went to the concert on the third date with your future husband or something. There are people who will go to see the Stones perform when both audience and musicians are in wheelchairs. Rock on. I will stay home and put Let It Bleed on again.
Dogbert 11.22.04 at 3:06 am
Brian, it is not an iron law in classical music.
Most great composers who live long enough continue maturing and improving well beyond their 30s.
And as far as dexterity is concerned, many pianists, violinists, etc seem to maintain their chops into their 40s and sometimes early 50s. Even after their technique begins to suffer their interpretation can continue to improve.
Chris Martin 11.22.04 at 3:18 am
There was an research article in the Journal of Research in Personality that showed that most male research scientists made their biggest discoveries before they turned 35. They also found that trend in music and literature.
See:
“Genius strikes before marriage or before 30: study” on http://www.exn.ca/Stories/2003/07/11/51.asp
You’ll have to scroll down a bit to get to the story.
Chris Martin 11.22.04 at 3:20 am
Actually the entire paper is online at
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/methodologyInstitute/pdf/SKanazawa/JRP2003.pdf
hilzoy 11.22.04 at 3:42 am
Counterexample to the argument that rock musicians peak young: Richard Thompson, who is still wonderful and still changing.
frightwig 11.22.04 at 3:43 am
“My Ellington (stops) around 1945.”
Then I suppose you’re missing out on Ellington at Newport, The Far East Suite, Blues in Orbit (my personal favorite of the moment), Such Sweet Thunder, And His Mother Called Him Bill, Ellington Meets Coleman Hawkins, Ellington Meets John Coltrane, the records with Ella Fitzgerald, Side by Side w/ Johnny Hodges, The Nutcracker Suite, Money Jungle, Afro-Eurasian Eclipse, the Sacred Concerts, etc.?
Pop musicians tend to have brief and early peaks, but a lot of jazz masters still burn bright even into their elder years. To me, Ellington did a lot of his best work after 1945.
cbl 11.22.04 at 3:55 am
“We are bodies that wear out, we are spirits that tire, mellow, lose motivation and ambition.”
This is true, but I can think of two examples right off the top of my head (Elvin Jones, Ravi Shankar) who just a few years ago could outrun and outendure (live-musically speaking) any younger musician I’ve ever seen. I mean really put them to SHAME.
Now, should anyone really expect pop-culture musicians to be able to age well? I mean, given that for about the last 40 or 50 years, the primary feature of mass culture has been the celebration of youth (sex, rebelliousness, etc.), so once one loses one’s youth, it seems that ones ability to be an authentic participant in such a culture is drastically diminished. I’m sure there’s more to it than that, but in general attempts by older rock/indie/hiphop musicians to keep acting like teenagers produce absurd results (Rolling Stones, anyone?), and attempts by others to adapt these types of music to their ever growing life’s experience generally sound pretentious at best.
This is more due to culture than it is to the inevitable aging of human bodies and minds. I can think of far more classical composers that did their best work after 30 as opposed to before. I’ve seen many performers of classical, jazz, and various world musics that play not only with fierce energy but also with the soul and wisdom of their years (I know it’s cliche but it’s true, dammit!), a result at least as rewarding as that provided by the inspiration of youth. Unfortunately, “today’s” music hasn’t been able to deal with this, and I’m not sure it ever could.
Adi 11.22.04 at 4:27 am
ummm…joe stummer’s last album was pretty sweet, if nowhere near the dizzying heights of his clash stuff….
George Williams 11.22.04 at 4:34 am
Patti Smith is close to 60, but when I saw her last summer, she put on one of the best rock shows I have ever seen in 25 years of going to such shows.
Andy 11.22.04 at 4:41 am
“FYI, Neko has a new live CD out.”
That’s interesting but never mind that as she’s playing the Commodore here in Vancouver tomorrow. I really should drag my arse on out and see her. My girlfriend’s out of town doing a PhD so I’ve seen too many shows by myself lately such as Medeski, Martin, and Wood and Otis Taylor though. I agree that Yo La Tengo and Joe Strummer have released good stuff in the last while.
Bruce Baugh 11.22.04 at 5:28 am
Hmm. There are a bunch of older musicians I find well worth listening to. Not in any particular order…
Yes’ recent albums have a very high level of musicianship and a pleasing set of variations on their standard stuff. Not breaking new ground, maybe, but delivering me new stuff that I like listening to.
Peter Gabriel’s output is not large, but hot damn is the quality high, and he is learning new tricks all the time.
Sting seems to me to be advancing his craft. His voice isn’t what it once was, but then he’s skillfully adapting old material to it, and finding new things to do with it.
Yoko Kanno continues to come up with new work that is distinctively her own, but distinctly no tjust the same old thing.
bob mcmanus 11.22.04 at 5:29 am
I don’t deny there are a lot of exceptions. I will also grant that many of my rules are cruel and arbitrary, simply to artificially put a limit on what I listen to, in order to give it the time it deserves.
Saying you have run out of music to discover or rediscover to me is like saying you have run out of books to read; I am going to die having missed most of what is good. This is not sad.
Bruce Baugh 11.22.04 at 5:31 am
Quite true, Bob. Gotta filter somehow. As long as it keeps you in good work you do like, the rest is sort of irrelevant.
Doug Muir 11.22.04 at 8:00 am
As an intermediate category: bands that peaked some time ago, and are now obviously coasting, but are anyway still worth listening to.
R.E.M. hit its high point between 1988 and 1995, with “Green”, “Out of Time”, “Automatic for the People”, and “Monster”. (Yes, “Monster”. It’s metal. They did a metal album, and it was really good. Deal.)
Since then… well, basically, you buy an R.E.M. album now not because it’s going to be great. It’s not going to be great. But it’s going to have at least one great moment, and one or two or maybe three songs that will stay with you. “New Adventures in Hi-Fi” has the utterly chilling Michael Stipe/Patti Smith duet. “Up” has _Hope_ and the slight but memorable _Sad Professor_:
Everybody hates a sad professor
Everybody hates a bore
Everybody hates a sad professor
I hate where I wound up
— that’s minor R.E.M., but it’s still a damn fine song.
So I’ll still buy ’em. Just with somewhat lowered expectations.
Another in the same category: Barenaked Ladies.
Agreement with whoever pointed out that Patti Smith is still worth listening to.
Also that Dylan still can’t play that freaking harmonica. (If I hear one more Boomer tell me that it’s all about the lyrics, man…)
Doug M.
duus 11.22.04 at 8:31 am
Doug M.: Also that Dylan still can’t play that freaking harmonica.
Uh, have you heard Pledging my time?
so um if you’re looking for music i’m just going to plug this fairtly intelligent lefty folk rock. there are a few free songs here.
(end plug)
dave heasman 11.22.04 at 9:20 am
Great post, Maria, and nice discussion. But try being about 25 years older. Almost everything I listened to in high school is still brilliant. If I had to live the rest of my life without hearing a pop record made after 1963 it’d be no great loss.
The frightwig is right about Duke, though. His record with Armstrong, Piano in the Background, and the New Orleans Suite are bloody good.
nick 11.22.04 at 11:04 am
Yes to Liz Phair. Yes to U2, even, whose last album seemed to me a kind of self-betrayal. (The Salon review of the 1990s compilation sums it up.) And I parted company with Pearl Jam around the time of ‘No Code’: sometimes your life and a band’s life disconnect.
Stepping back a little: do we ask too much of our favourite musicians (consciously or subconsciously) to sustain their high standards over decades? We accept, more or less, that in sport, a team or a player goes through runs of good and bad form. And we can even tolerate bad novels from a major author…
But I suppose it’s easier to deal with weak stuff in retrospect — it’s easier to construct a narrative around Miles Davis’s wild ride of a career now he’s gone.
(And yes, Richard Thompson has defied all these cycles.)
Andy 11.22.04 at 12:22 pm
Oh I’ll confess to a few musical sins. Number one, Neko Case is playing Thursday rather than tomorrow. Two, I don’t like Sonic Youth. Three, I actually did like Liz Phair’s last album and she’s fun to see live now as opposed to back in say ’93 when she had stagefright. The new U2 album is all right but not as good as the last one and certainly no Joshua Tree or Achtung Baby. In the interests of full disclosure, I should also cop to liking Swedish girl rock like the Sahara Hotnights that I discovered off an Xbox game (Burnout3). Yes I know, the shame, the shame. :)
Gerry 11.22.04 at 1:07 pm
I found myself nodding along as I read your post Maria, and then shocked at myself for doing so. I cannot agree with everything you say – Kristen Hersh continues to astonish; try last year’s self-titled Throwing Muses album.
But if Belly circa 1993 still existed today, would we really want them to?
At a certain age (late 20s) many people no longer want to be surprised and no longer want to be disappointed. In the list of those who have never disappointed me, I have to include Sonic Youth, Lisa Germano, Ani Di Franco, Mark Kozelek, Kathleen Hanna, Sleater-Kinney and (odd-ones-out) St. Etienne.
It’s hard to know what to do with Kim and Frank. Ditto Juliana Hatfield and Evan Dando. And Woody Allen. Time for us all to grow up.
Gerry 11.22.04 at 1:08 pm
I found myself nodding along as I read your post Maria, and then shocked at myself for doing so. I cannot agree with everything you say – Kristen Hersh continues to astonish; try last year’s self-titled Throwing Muses album.
But if Belly circa 1993 still existed today, would we really want them to?
At a certain age (late 20s) many people no longer want to be surprised and no longer want to be disappointed. In the list of those who have never disappointed me, I have to include Sonic Youth, Lisa Germano, Ani Di Franco, Mark Kozelek, Kathleen Hanna, Sleater-Kinney and (odd-ones-out) St. Etienne.
It’s hard to know what to do with Kim and Frank. Ditto Juliana Hatfield and Evan Dando. And Woody Allen. Time for us all to grow up.
Ginger Yellow 11.22.04 at 2:34 pm
I have to agree with Duus – if you think Dylan can’t play harmonica, give Blonde on Blonde a listen. His playing on Absolutely Sweet Marie alone is worth the price of the album.
That’s not to say he’s a great player, and understandably given his physical condition his playing has got a lot worse since about the late 80s. But for Christ’s sake, given that he’s produced at least ten of the best albums ever recorded over the course of a forty year career, I think you can cut him a bit of slack for his harmonica.
Doug 11.22.04 at 3:01 pm
We are bodies that wear out, we are spirits that tire, mellow, lose motivation and ambition. I see no reason most artists are not mental athletes, reaching a peak at 25-30 and then declining, any further productivity based on the original inspiration.
Try country and blues. Not only will the blues not get you down, they’ll likely sustain you for a long, long time.
And what about something like Johnny Cash’s version of “Hurt”? No way a young man can sing that song like Cash did. Some artistic moments take half a century of ripening.
nm 11.22.04 at 3:54 pm
Kurt Wagner (Lambchop) barely released anything before he was 30, and didn’t get any recognition until he was 40. And there’s Vic Chesnutt. John Langford. John Doe (unfortunately, haven’t heard anything by Exena recently that I would rate well). Wayne Coyne. Hell, Ted Leo is in his mid-30’s. Maybe it’s only my concomitant slog towards death, but I’m pretty happy at how some of my heros age.
cleek 11.22.04 at 4:04 pm
in keeping with the title of the thread:
i’ll never buy another Sonic Youth. they peaked at Daydream Nation, coasted a bit for the next two, and then fell off into nothing. i bought Murray Street after reading good reviews and, while I don’t hate it, i don’t find anything there but cookie-cutter Sonic Youth songs: here’s the part where the two guitars play eighth-notes; here’s the part where Kim sings The Kim Lyrics; here’s the part where…
i’ll never but another Cure album. i bought this last one, hoping the reviews were right – they weren’t. Robert can’t even come up with new lyrics these days. for me, there is no Cure after Wish – and Wish is soiled by the twin abominations of “Friday, I’m In Love” and “Doing The Unstuck (Let’s Get Happy)”.
i’ll probably never buy another U2 album. i haven’t bought one since Rattle and Hum, and none of the singles since then have made me reconsider.
REM. Out Of Time was my last. “Shiny Happy People” made me ill, and i can smell the same the same poison in all of their subsequent singles.
Liz Phair. though Whip Smart and whiteChocolateSpageEgg had a few good songs, they never showed the brilliance and charm of Exile. i heard a single from her last record on some Top 40 station and couldn’t tell if it was April, Brittney or Christina. when i found out it was Liz, i nearly wept.
and yet, all five of those bands place very high on my personal Top 100 List. sad how it works out…
nolo 11.22.04 at 4:05 pm
Not to pile on, but another artist who seems to be improving with age is Nick Cave. His newest 2-cd release is probably his best work yet.
Uncle Kvetch 11.22.04 at 4:07 pm
Great thread. Random thoughts in no particular order:
-50 Foot Wave is, in fact, pretty damn exciting. Much harder than my usual taste, but something about Kristin H in her “tortured wail” register fits the noise just perfectly.
-Agree with those who say that REM are semi-coasting at this point, yet still managing to sneak enough interesting/offbeat tracks onto each album to make them worth keeping up with. (And they gave a blistering show at Madison Square Garden just 2 days after the election, and in the process restored my sense that life may be worth living after all.)
-Amazing that no one has yet mentioned Elvis Costello: one of my all-time musical heroes, but I haven’t bothered with his recent stuff because I just haven’t found his songriting compelling, no matter how many theoretically fascinating cross-genre experiments he throws himself into. I have a feeling I’m not alone.
-Sonic Youth ranks #1 on my list of “Bands that I’m supposed to worship, but just plain don’t get.” Pavement is #2.
-The career-spanning Fall compilation released earlier this year just might be the most exciting record I’ve purchased in 5 years. Made me feel like a pissed-off, misunderstood 19-year-old misanthrope again. In a good way.
cleek 11.22.04 at 4:16 pm
“Bands that I’m supposed to worship, but just plain don’t get.â€
Dylan is at the top of my list (followed by The Clash). i really like Highway 61 Revisited, but so-called masterpieces like Blonde on Blonde leaves me cold – his vocals make me wince, as does his harmonica, and his songs are always 3 verses too long.
on the other hand, Robyn Hitchcock has been consistently good his whole 30 year career – a few duds, a few gems, mostly solid. i still buy every record he puts out. and his latest, with Gillian Welch and David Rawlings playing the role of backup band, is really nice.
Henry Woodbury 11.22.04 at 4:35 pm
Like Uncle Kvetch, I find Elvis Costello’s cross-genre stuff uncompelling. He seems desparately bored with himself. Amazingly enough, it’s been ten years since Brutal Youth was released — and that was the lone high point in a decade of solo dreck. I gave up owning everything EC released around the Juliet Letters and am now rarely tempted to put on anything after Punch the Clock (1983).
Is there a difference between musicians who have lost their stuff and stuff that has lost its edge?
I don’t think that any of Liz Phair’s stuff has aged well, for example; the hooks on Exile on Guyville sound dated to me now.
C.J.Colucci 11.22.04 at 4:44 pm
I have no opinion about most of the artists mentioned here, and no basis for one. I’m getting old. I’ll go back to sleep now.
Thomas 11.22.04 at 4:58 pm
I went with some friends from the era to the Pixies show when they were in town.
And I couldn’t help but think: is there a worse gig in the world than opening up for the Pixies now?
All these aging hipsters (who mostly still consider themselves hip), supremely self-confident in their refined musical tastes, and yet incapable of really enjoying something that they didn’t enjoy for the first time more than a decade ago. (That includes me.)
I never really like Sonic Youth either (with the possible exception of Daydream Nation), but I do have several of their albums. Always impressed the wrong sort, if you ask me.
(They’d have been more impressed if I actually had the lps, rather than the CDs.)
SamChevre 11.22.04 at 5:01 pm
I agree with Doug–country and blues have many artists whose work continues to grow as they age. Johnny Cash (Hurt), Loretta Lynn (Miss Being Mrs. and This Old House), Patsy Cline (Your Cheating Heart), and George Jones (“The Rock” album) are all different than they were 25-30 years ago.
Ken Houghton 11.22.04 at 5:24 pm
“[M]arriage has a strong desistance effect on both crime and genius.”
Thank you, Chris Martin, for finding someone who offered evidence of a correlation for the decline of Suzanne Vega, Tori Amos, and the set of singers just previous to Maria’s list (not to mention Heart).
dan from Austin 11.22.04 at 6:01 pm
Reading this post and comments has been fun.
I feel like an old fogey sometimes because I think back to the period when I was in my senior year at art school and was loving the music of that period ’93 (maybe including a little ’92 and ’94 as well…) . So much great stuff was coming out around that time: Last Splash, Pure Guava from Ween, Exile in Guyville, Slanted Enchanted, Nothing worng with Love from Built to spill, Transmissions from the satellite heart, Mellow Gold and on and on.
I wonder if I was just more open then? But all the music seem like real classics. It gives me pause when I want to crack jokes about Foghat fans in their 50s. It’s inevitable, I guess to love the music of particularly suggestible periods of one’s life.
Bands that once loved, but don’t buy anymore include: Pavement-related product, Sonic Youth, Built to Spill, Cowboy Junkies (After Pale Sun, Crescent Moon they went in the exact opposite direction I preferred.), Kozelek product, Liz. There are others probably. I buy less music than I ever have although I listen just as much. My favorite band that still impresses me with their new releases is Low. Originally, just a replacement for Galaxie 500 in my cd collection, they continue to grown and change while maintaining something that is essentially “them”. Good stuff.
One last thought. I don’t think that bands have to change or continue to innovate. That seems false to me. Johnny Cash simply strummed his guitar and sang (old songs, often) and blew me away with nearly each recording until his death.) I used to get very angry at artists who made music that didn’t move or excite me anymore. I felt betrayed by their change in style or by the fact that they were “repeating themselves.” After a long time, though I realize that they nly need to make music that moves THEM. If the artists are feeling it or enjoying themselves, then that’s why they should make music. Cowboy Junkies or the Breeder’s don’t owe anyhting to me. They made some of the greates music I have ever heard. I should be thankful for that and respectful for what they have given me instead of being a demanding and petulant shouting “Entertain me!” At least that’s my perspective now.
dan from Austin 11.22.04 at 6:03 pm
Reading this post and comments has been fun.
I feel like an old fogey sometimes because I think back to the period when I was in my senior year at art school and was loving the music of that period ’93 (maybe including a little ’92 and ’94 as well…) . So much great stuff was coming out around that time: Last Splash, Pure Guava from Ween, Exile in Guyville, Slanted Enchanted, Nothing worng with Love from Built to spill, Transmissions from the satellite heart, Mellow Gold and on and on.
I wonder if I was just more open then? But all the music seemed like real classics. It gives me pause when I want to crack jokes about Foghat fans in their 50s. It’s inevitable, I guess to love the music of particularly suggestible periods of one’s life.
Bands that I once loved, but don’t buy anymore include: Pavement-related product, Sonic Youth, Built to Spill, Cowboy Junkies (After Pale Sun, Crescent Moon they went in the exact opposite direction I preferred.), Kozelek product, Liz. There are others probably. I buy less music than I ever have although I listen just as much. My favorite band that still impresses me with their new releases is Low. Originally, just a replacement for Galaxie 500 in my cd collection, they continue to grown and change while maintaining something that is essentially “them”. Good stuff.
One last thought. I don’t think that bands have to change or continue to innovate. That seems false to me. Johnny Cash simply strummed his guitar and sang (old songs, often) and blew me away with nearly each recording until his death.)
I used to get very angry at artists who made music that didn’t move or excite me anymore. I felt betrayed by their change in style or by the fact that they were “repeating themselves.” After a long time, though I realize that they only need to make music that moves THEM. If the artists are feeling it or enjoying themselves, then that’s why they should make music. Cowboy Junkies or the Breeders don’t owe anyhting to me. They made some of the greatest music I have ever heard. I should be thankful for that and respectful for what they have given me instead of being a demanding and petulant child shouting “Entertain me!” At least that’s my perspective now.
Kimmitt 11.22.04 at 6:34 pm
Hey, Beastie Boys are still pretty good. At least.
Michael 11.22.04 at 7:40 pm
Possibly the only band that I liked in the early/mid ’90s that I still think is going strong is Wilco. (You could toss in the Old 97s here, too.) Surprised nobody’s mentioned it so far: no alt-country followers on CT?
Lee Scoresby 11.22.04 at 8:02 pm
At good part of this discussion (excepting, e.g., the Cowboy Junkies) seems to be about punk (either 1970s or late-1980s/early 1990s varients) and indie bands making music after those genres — and their assorted subgenres — went into decline.
It strikes me that there is something significant about this fact. Perhaps we’re talking about artists whose musical movements petered out and were left either doing the old thing past its prime or adapting. REM, for example, adapted fairly successfully for a while before become self-parody.
These were also (mostly) bands who made it big with crossover work and then faced difficult choices of direction.
Any thoughts?
Daragh McDowell 11.22.04 at 9:59 pm
Maria! As your cousin I believe its my duty to inform you the Beasties have been consistently crackin’ since Ill Communication. I will brook no opposition on this point,
burritoboy 11.22.04 at 10:56 pm
I suppose I’m the only techno/electronica head in this group.
While I wasn’t quite as rabid about techno/electronica in 1994/1995 as I am now, plenty of groups back then are still interesting now:
Chemical Brothers’ Exit Planet Dust (1995) to their Get Yourself High (2004)
Dan the Automator’s work with Kool Keith/ Dr. Octagon in the mid-Nineties through to Handsome Boy Modeling School to Gorillaz to Lovage to Deltron 3030. Handsome Boy Modeling School’s new CD White People (2004) just heard it – funniest music disc ever.
DJ Shadow – first heard his work with the Ultramagnetic MCs, first solo album in 1996, Endtroducing, was great. Last album, In Tune and On Time, also great.
Anyways, MOST of the big stars in techno (Fatboy Slim, Pete Tong, Sasha, Digweed, Oakenfold, Dimitri, Qbert, Cut Chemist, etc) are over 35. Lots of the big-name British DJs are either nearing 40 or are already over 40.
Like Dan the Automator said:
“Rock and roll could neva eva hip-hop like this!” (Frankly, I never could understand the rock and roll thing at all.)
JRoth 11.22.04 at 11:13 pm
On the theme of peaking early and musicians starting late:
A lot of research suggests that it’s less a matter of starting early than of keeping at it for about a decade. Someone mentioned Cole Porter peaking late, but also that he really got started already in his 30s. Arguably, in most fields, it simply takes 10 years to get your shit together enough to produce great works. Artists who peak young started that much younger (McCartney wrote Yesterday almost exactly 10 years after he started playing rock & pop music – as opposed to piano lessons – and Mozart didn’t really wrote anything good until he was 13 – he had simply started younger than anyone else). It’s not a hard-and-fast rule, but it’s informative, and helps put things in perspective.
In my field, architecture, no one peaks at 30, because you can’t really start designing buildings in any meaningful sense until you’re well into your 20s (and for most people, 30s). But you get a lot of 40-50 year olds doing brilliant work.
The flip side is decline, due to hardening synapses and loss of youthful vigor – most 35 year olds aren’t in a recording studio at 4 am, when inspiration hits; they’re at home with the wife, or playing their greatest hits again.
Aside from late starts, another big factor in late bloomers is simple hard work. If you wake up one morning with Yesterday playing in your head, you don’t necessarily develop workmanlike writing habits, and when Yesterday is replaced, 10 years later, by Woo Woo Woo My Baby She Does It Good (or whatever), you don’t have the experience improving bad ideas to make it good. A lot of bands/individuals mentioned here honed their skills over decades, perhaps with early success, but are really relying on skill and craft, not “genius.”
Michael G 11.23.04 at 1:15 am
I’m no hipster, and not quite an old fogey, but I fear I’m the only soul out there who thinks Luna is/was the best band of the last decade?
Josh 11.23.04 at 1:28 am
Elvis Costello — While you couldn’t put together a greatest hits package of his last fifteen years the way you could from his first fifteen, he’s still going very strong, with the rock albums especially. There’s a kind of ceiling to his work imposed the fact that he’ll never be quite as angry as he once was, so no matter how good a song he writes, it just can’t get any better than the first dozen times out. If only his catalog was half the size, he’d be in good shape.
I think Dylan has the same problem. The last few albums are terrific albums, but part of being Dylan is changing the world with your mdoernist-poet-cum-folkie. Learning young Dylan, you find someone who blows open the world. Learning old Dylan, you find someone to grow old with.
Here’s a topic: a la Beatles going into Revolver, what by-the-numbers pop star is going to find drugs or some other stimulus causes him or her to revolutionize the form? Britney, I’m counting on you. (Apologies in advance to those who want to defend mop rock on the merits.)
Dan S 11.23.04 at 4:29 am
I’d like to thank nm for mentioning that Wayne Coyne (Flaming Lips)is still good, I was hoping someone would. I would add Nick Cave, although the latest few aren’t all that great. The guy from Spritualized is pretty old, right? And I like Blur’s Think Tank a lot and Stephan Malkmus’ solo stuff well enough, for what it’s worth. It seems like a lot of my favorite rock music is by old people, including some of the names that have been mentioned.
Spoilt Victorian Child 11.23.04 at 5:56 pm
I don’t want to write Costello off, but the truth is that I haven’t enjoyed an album of his since Imperial Bedroom. Even King of America feels stale.
I guess Ted Leo and Joe Pernice are getting pretty old now; they’re still throwing heat.
Also, judging by the number of times the word “fogey” has appeared in this thread, I get the impression that I’m the youngest person here by ten years or so.
Mo MacArbie 11.23.04 at 6:33 pm
And here I was, contemplating when to get Tanya Donelly’s newest album (Oh, my beloved Tanya!). I’m pretty sure I will (BTW, does anyone know what file format 4AD’s downloads are available in?).
I find that nowadays my listening habits have changed. Not just in genres/artists, but the fact that I rarely sit down and listen to an entire album start to finish anymore. I’ll just rip it and add it to the pile as I load everything and just hit shuffle. There are stacks of CDs I still haven’t heard from, but it’s comforting to know that they’re there.
A consequence of this is that those artists that have produced many albums (like Dylan) come up much more frequently than those who haven’t (like Tanya). So I must gather everything just to give ’em a fighting chance. And while a new album may be disappointing in its entirety, a random song out of the blue between Deep Purple and Earl Scruggs can be startlingly wonderful.
And I’d like to echo the comment about Robyn Hitchcock. He’s been on a roll lately.
Rob 11.23.04 at 7:01 pm
Jason Pierce of Spiritualized must be quite old, as he was in Spacemen 3 in the mid eighties (who were mostly shit, in case anyone wonders), but then there has been a marked downward trend since the sheer wonder of ‘Ladies and Gentlemen…’. I heard bits of their most recent album on the radio, and it was bloody awful, while ‘Let It Come Down’ was good, but not as good as ‘Ladies and Gentlemen…’. Also, I saw them live earlier in the year, and they were pretty bad compared to when they were touring in the late nineties.
I think this might be partly a generational thing though. I quite like ‘New Adventures in Hi-Fi’, ‘Up’ and ‘Reveal’, and I suspect the reason that most of the people posting on this thread don’t is because I listened to these albums in my formative adolescent years, while everyone else heard all the earlier albums at that point in their lives, and so the later stuff seems bad in comparison because it doesn’t have the same resonances. That said, musicians do have a worrying tendency to turn into lazy complacent self-indulgent bastards. It’s all that adulation.
John I 11.23.04 at 8:13 pm
Great Thread.
Written off a long time ago but still love their early stuff:
REM, Cure, Weller, Bunnymen, Phair, Buzzcocks
Still have the power to awe with new releases:
Hitchcock, Luna/Wareham, Stereolab, Damned (amazing live shows last year and they’re wot: 50?), Lips, Verlaine.
Almost written off but still holding hope: xtc, Costello, Byrne, Weezer
There are suprisingly few records that I dug as an early 20-something, that I don’t dig almost as much now in my upper 30’s. And I’m still discovering great stuff from the 90’s that I missed at the time: Komeda, High Lamas, Mag. Fields.
-John I
tom 11.23.04 at 9:33 pm
nice surprise for me, as someone who graduated from high school in Massachusetts in 1986: one of my local faves back then was the Del Fuegos – remember their very brief stint of national notoriety (“Don’t Run Wild” made the Top 40, they starred in a Budweiser commercial)? then they kinda ran out of gas & i rarely thought of them again, except when it was time to move & i had to pack and unpack all of my old cassettes from college.
now i’m a middle-aged dad w/ three toddlers running around, and who do i find is the best & coolest purveyor of kids music today, but Dan Zanes from the Fuegos?
it’s kind of reassuring to find an artist who not only evolves & stays fresh over time, but actually tracks your own progress through life. when i was hanging out in bars, drinking a six-pack on an average weeknight, and falling into & out of relationships with regularity, DZ covered that territory pretty well; now that i’m trying to turn me kids on to music, without driving myself nuts, he’s there again with just what i need!
Uncle Kvetch 11.23.04 at 9:50 pm
I quite like ‘New Adventures in Hi-Fi’, ‘Up’ and ‘Reveal’, and I suspect the reason that most of the people posting on this thread don’t is because I listened to these albums in my formative adolescent years, while everyone else heard all the earlier albums at that point in their lives, and so the later stuff seems bad in comparison because it doesn’t have the same resonances.
Very true. I’ve followed REM avidly since “Murmur,” and while I’d like to be able to hear each new release with an open mind–to indulge in the mental exercise of “pretend you’ve never heard of this band”–it simply isn’t possible to filter out all the context. My general reaction to each of the recent releases has been initial disappointment, followed by gradually picking out the few really choice tracks.
A great big YEAH!! to those who’ve cited Robyn Hitchcock. He continues to delight and astound.
John I: please don’t write off XTC. I truly believe Andy hasn’t shared the entirety of his greatness with us yet.
Doug Muir 11.24.04 at 7:58 am
My general reaction to each of the recent releases has been initial disappointment, followed by gradually picking out the few really choice tracks.
Yep. It seems to be a pretty common response — check out some of the amazon reviews of those albums.
“At first I found [R.E.M.’s latest album] hugely disappointing. But I thought I should give it a chance. A week later, I still think it’s a little disappointing, but now I realize there are three good songs and one that is actually excellent…”
Michael Stipe’s eerie voice is gradually flattening with age — but he realizes it, and is adjusting accordingly. And he does still have the ability to write those slightly-off-kilter lyrics that, in the words of some critic or other, “make more sense than they would if they made sense”.
(The vast majority of rock lyricists /think/ that they’re doing this; I can count on the fingers of one hand the ones who pull it off.)
Dylan and the harmonica: then he keeps forgetting.
I note in passing that Dylan was probably permanently ruined for me once I’d listened to that Woody Guthrie LP. It’s like thinking the BeeGees were a pretty good band and then hearing the White Album.
Doug M.
duus 11.24.04 at 1:31 pm
I have to agree with Duus – if you think Dylan can’t play harmonica, give Blonde on Blonde a listen. His playing on Absolutely Sweet Marie alone is worth the price of the album.
thanks ginger yellow. my fave dylan album.
dave heasman 11.24.04 at 3:03 pm
As for starting late, Ian Dury & Charlie Gillett both started music careers well into their 30s. If you call it music.
I heard Derek Trucks for the first time last night. Pretty good, butI doubt I’m in the van with this.
Funny, music dynasties – give the kid a preppy forename and he’ll go all multi-culti – viz Graham Haynes.
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