Knock Knock, Bang Bang

Out of curiousity, are you saying that a)Maye shouldn’t be in jail at all or b) Maye shouldn’t be executed?

B) strikes me as right. A) strikes me as false.

This is just a clarificatory point.

I am a full-throated supporter of the death penalty. In this case I tend toward “shouldn’t be in jail” but I am definite about “shouldn’t be subject to the death penalty”. I can see the argument for manslaughter. I don’t see anything close to murder.

One additional point, Jones was not only a cop, he was the son of the police chief. The pressure to punish his killer was surely very intense.

This case illustrates one half of the reason why no-knock and knock-and-bash warrants are so dangerous. The flip side is innocent people getting killed when the police think they are a threat even if they aren’t. These type of searches should be reserved for serious and immediate danger. They are another example of the stupidity that is brought to us by the drug war.

This is a no-brainer. Not guilty for reasons of self-defense.

The man should clearly not be executed but is there anything that anyone can do? I mean is there a petition to sign or something?

You start appeasing citizens – they’ll be shooting cops all the time. This is the matter of principle, you shoot a cop – you die; and be more careful next time. The cops protect our freedom, without them we’d have no freedom.

I’m all for saying it’s NOT a “damn shame”, and letting him go. Cops executing drug warrants aren’t protecting our freedom, they’re stamping it out. And no-knock warrants are an abomination.

Have we all forgotten that that warrant is as much to tell the subject of the search that it’s a legitimate search, as it is to legitmate it? Until those cops establish to my satisfaction that they ARE cops, and DO have a warrant, I’m within my rights to assume they’re home invaders who rented cop costums. Which does, after all, happen uncomfortably often.

Hold on … forget about lefty anti-death penalty types for a moment. (Author forgets self momentarily.) Where is the NRA in all of this? This is a man who used a gun in clear self-defense and now will die for it. We’re talking about the government executing a man for using his Second Amendment rights. It loves talking about jack-booted thugs … well, here they are.

John, I’ll lay $20 that Mississippi law is pretty lenient when it comes to gunning down intruders into one’s house. I think that it comes down to (1) when the police kick down your door, you don’t have rights – Mississippi also has a long tradition of state terror; (2) son of the chief of police, and (3) a black man shooting a white man.

Balko makes the excellent point that the burden of rationality is on the citizen. Police make these paramilitary raids, intentionally confronting citizens late at night or early in the morning when they are not alert and when they are not expecting anything, and they are almost never sanctioned when they shoot innocent citizens in the course of these raids. Why? Because police need to be able to protect their lives against dangerous criminals and they are entitled to the benefit of the doubt, or so the story goes.

Citizens, however, are severely punished when they defend themselves against armed intruders who do not identify themselves, because it is their responsibility to be able to immediately distinguish criminal intruder from SWAT team, even if they were sleeping seconds before the raid and thus are not in yet in full control of their faculties, or live in high-crime areas where it’s not implausible that armed criminals WOULD do a brazen home invasion, or have no criminal records and thus no reason to suspect that the intruders are police. They get no benefit of the doubt; they usually get charged with something and need a jury to acquit. Thus the burden of rationality is on the citizen.

1997: Minister Dies As Cops Raid Wrong Apartment

A 75-year-old retired minister died of a heart attack last night after struggling with 13 heavily armed Boston Police officers who stormed the wrong Dorchester apartment in a botched drug raid.

The Rev. Accelyne Williams struggled briefly when the raiding officers, some of them masked and carrying shotguns, subdued and handcuffed him, then he collapsed, police said.

Williams, a retired Methodist minister, was pronounced dead of cardiac arrest at 4 p.m. yesterday at Carney Hospital said hospital spokesman William Henderson.

There is a likelihood or possibility that we did hit the wrong apartment, said Police Commissioner Paul Evans at a news conference last night. If that’s the case, then there will be an apology.

Apology…

“Maye’s attorney tells me that after the trial, she spoke with two jurors by phone. She learned from them that the consensus among jurors was that Maye was convicted for two reasons. The first is that though they initially liked her, Maye’s lawyer, the jury soured on her when, in her closing arguments, she intimated that if the jury showed no mercy for Maye, God might neglect to bestow mercy on them when they meet him in heaven. They said the second reason May was convicted was that the jury felt he’d been spoiled by his mother and grandmother, and wasn’t very respectful of elders and authority figures.”

link

So if they shout “Police!” as they charge in, the only thing you can do is throw your hands up? That’s a useful tip for anyone looking to get into the home-invasion business. At first glance it appears Mr. Maye is getting a very raw deal, but even if there’s another shoe waiting to drop, it does highlight the fact that these situations are possible primarily because of no-knock raids. Is it worth a cop getting killed to take down a major organized crime figure or terrorist? Yes. But not a low/mid-level drug dealer.

I also recall a similar incident involving bounty hunters. Not cops: bounty hunters. Target wasn’t in the apartment, man defends his home, they shot him and his girlfriend to death.

No consequences.

And so it goes.
.

Where is the NRA in all of this?

As an ex-NRA member I predict that shortly, NRA members will be getting a mailing about this, complete with a picture of Wayne LaPierre looking solemn and an appeal for contributions.

Where is the NRA in all of this? This is a man who used a gun in clear self-defense and now will die for it. We’re talking about the government executing a man for using his Second Amendment rights. It loves talking about jack-booted thugs … well, here they are.

Well, I don’t know where the NRA is on this, but 2nd amendment/gun-enthusiast Glenn Reynolds was well ahead of CT on this story:

http://instapundit.com/archives/027353.php

Let me clarify the above – I’m not suggesting the cop who was shot in the actual case was crooked (though, given the current form of the police there, I have great doubts about his father), but rather that there’s no way to simply say, shoot a cop – you get executed, without knowing all the facts of the case and the mitigating circumstances. You take away that and you give the bad cops license to do anything. That won’t protect anyone’s freedom.

All right, all right, my mistake. Forget it. I didn’t realize this could be interpreted as a serious comment.

I’ve got a 9 month old son in the house. Anybody breaks down my door they are getting both barrels. I can’t believe anybody on the libertarian/conservative end of the political spectrum would think that was wrong.

This comments thread is reminding me why libertarians are different from Republicans, and why I like them more.

Uh, mq #35, I’m a Republican and not a libertarian, and, assuming the facts are as advertised, I think Maye ought to be a free man. It is an outrage that he was charged. Don’t know why you had to spoil this thread with ignorant political comments.

It is standard Republican politics to support (a) the 2d Amendment, and (b) the right to self defense, (c) esp. in defense one’s home. Heck, Republicans get bent out of shape in defense of those values even when they shouldn’t — see Waco and Ruby Ridge.

It’s also worth pointing out, as Balko does repeatedly, that Maye was not charged with, or convicted of, *any other offense*. In other words, the police and prosecutor have implicitly conceded that Maye had done nothing wrong when the officers barged into his home.

The same goddammed people who screamed about Janet Reno and the Branch Davidian raid want this man to die. Bullshit.

I say we tell the Repubs that Janet Reno ordered the raid and that it was a few ATF agents who were killed. They will build a monument to Maye and Bush will pardon him before sunset.

Two Saturdays ago I was sleeping on the couch with one of my two-and-a-half-year-old daughters when I was awakened by what I thought was something knocked over by the cats. From the kitchen doorway I saw that the back door was open, and that someone was standing just inside. He was a burglar who had just snatched my wife’s purse, as it turned out, but I didn’t know it at the time — I could see him only in silhouette, I didn’t know his intentions and I didn’t know if he was armed. All I knew was that there was a big stranger in my house, I was standing midway between him and my daughter, and at that moment I didn’t know whether to shit or go blind.

As I watched him sprint away down the street, one of my only cogent thoughts between the initial fright and the subsequent adrenalin rush was that if I’d had a gun I might well have used it.

That Jones died is a tragedy. That Maye is in jail at all is a travesty. The real guilt lies with whomever came up with a policy of no-knock searches in a place where anyone who makes a forced entry into a house, especially unannounced and at night, can reasonably expect that residents will defend themselves with guns.

Why would the NRA want any part of this? Maye would have been better off without a gun.

#44, I’m a republican and a life NRA member, and shooting instructor.

If the facts are as Randy’s presented them, Maye should be a free man. Everyone in my circles that I’ve talked to about this agrees.

You can accept that this is an issue that cuts across the political spectrum (like Kelo v New London) or just keep mumbling about the evil neo-cons.

(Why do I hear “railroaded” somewhere?)

Top ten reasons this is probably a railroad:

Because we have a 1) Black man who shot a 2)white cop, 3) in the black man’s home in the middle of the night, during 4) a no-knock raid 5) based on a tip against the guy next door. He then 6) had his trial moved from his home county, a 7) poor black area, to 8) the predominantly white county of 9) his alleged victim, 10) where his dad is police chief. Bonus points: This is all happening 11) in Mississippi.

The “suspend judgement until the facts are in” crowd overlook the obvious. The guy is on death row and can’t afford to wait indefinitely whilst you cogitate. We know enough about the case – not enough to resolve it, but enough to realize that it smells like three goats in series. Some competent legal authority – which may disqualify anyone in Mississippi, I can’t say – needs to examine this, and it won’t happen unless enough of the citizenry make a helluva racket. And that won’t happen if we’re all busy “suspending judgment”.

I’m a Republican, an NRA member, and have personally drawn a firearm on a would-be home intruder.

Hell no Cory Maye shouldn’t be in jail. He did what I would do; he did what any real American would do; he did what you would do. I wouldn’t compare Cory Maye to Randy Weaver only because to do so would be an insult to Cory Maye.

It’s a terrible tragedy that the rookie son of the Police Chief had to die. He was following in his father’s footsteps and probably did so because he looked up to his dad. He was probably a good kid.

He doesn’t sound like a thug, either — according to the report he didn’t have his gun drawn — so I don’t hold any animosity toward him whatsoever. He didn’t deserve to die.

But neither does Cory Maye. In his shoes I would’ve done the same thing, and I know this for sure because I almost did (except my would-be intruder wasn’t a cop — but what if he had been?)

Any of us in this situation might find ourselves on death row — for the simple act of defending our family from an unidentified intruder! We live in a country where that is supposed to be legal.

It also shows one of the perils of having an armed citizenry. It isn’t always the rape prevented or the home invasion thwarted. Sometimes it’s a cop who takes a bullet fired from an innocent man.

For every freedom there is a price. I came out a winner because I had a gun when I needed it, but that isn’t always going to be the case. The Second Amendment isn’t a guarantee of security any more than the First is a guarantee of good news. It’s about having the freedom to secure your own liberty.

That liberty means nothing if you exercise that liberty in good conscience but the state takes your life or your freedom anyway because they made a mistake. Cory Maye acted as any freedom-loving American would, and for that he should be set free.

Then we can grieve over the loss of a young man who would probably have made a good cop.

The crucial question here: did the narcotics task force sufficiently announce themselves and gave Maye time to peacefully answer the door before forcing entry? Balko cites this as one of the “facts in dispute”. And obviously the jury decided that Maye was in the position to know that he was facing police officers. How can you be so sure that the jury was wrong? I find it hard to believe that 12 people would convict a MANIFESTLY innocent man of murder. Why would they do that? The initial explanation that it was racism is undermined by the fact that the jury was actually NOT all white, contrary to the way it was first (incorrectly) reported by Balko.

And obviously the jury decided that Maye was in the position to know that he was facing police officers. How can you be so sure that the jury was wrong?

Because Maye had no criminal record and was not a drug dealer–so why on earth would he knowingly fire on a police officer? That makes no sense at all. It makes a lot of sense, though, that the police would claim, after the fact, that they’d announced their presence, though.

I find it hard to believe that 12 people would convict a MANIFESTLY innocent man of murder.

Right, because we’re all sure that’s never happened before.

Why would they do that?

Perhaps because we have a dead cop, son of the the police chief, an aggressive D.A., an ineffective defense attorney, a jury inclined to give far more weight to the testimony of the surviving police officers than Maye…

I’m still not getting how they got the warrant for that half. Does anyone? I mean, if some a’hole in my apartment building engages criminal activity, do they get to no-knock search my apartment? Someone who is reasonably suspected of serious criminal activity, say the drug dealer next door if he/she was really a drug dealer, might have more reason to believe a no-knock warrant is legit and therefore less right to shoot the officers involved dead. Meanwhile, jury must’ve somehow decided that this guy was gunning for cops. Nothing else I can think of makes sense, for capital murder charge to stick.

Michelle writes in #64:

I’m still not getting how they got the warrant for that half. Does anyone?

Presumably, the police went to a prosecutor and judge and got it. Once they have the tipster’s word and some supporting evidence, they get a warrant. Or at least that’s the way it is supposed to work.

However, police often lie, or at least stretch the truth to make a case. They may have told the judge that the suspect was renting both halves of the duplex. Might have told the judge that the second half of the duplex was being used for storage.

Which points out how an incredible lack of attention to detail and basic criminal investigation can result in a horrible situation.

Police, it seems to me, are rather cavalier about such raids. They figure that if nothing is found, then you’re innocent and no harm, no foul.

Truth is, anyone who has gone through even a regular search warrant experience will tell you that it is hell. I’ve known totally innocent people who were in such situations, all due to poor police investigative work. They told me that it is one of the single most demeaning experiences of their lives. You have a crew of cops poking through the most personal of wardrobe items, rifling through your correspondence, and generally tampering with your keepsakes.

Now imagine the added terror of a no-knock. By the time it’s all done with, the victim (and that’s what he or she is at this point) is so relieved it’s over that they don’t want to make a stink about it.

I disagree with the posters who say that no-knock is not the problem. It is part of the problem. But just as much of a factor is poor police work.

Fact is, we do need to protect ourselves. Even from the police. But we also need to raise a stink when incompetent cops set up such situations through their inept action (or lack of action).

Otherwise, we’ll see more of this. And that’s certainly no good.

There are plenty of people, I’m among them, who think you should get a medal for shooting a burglar dead. And if burglary shouldn’t merit the death penalty, maybe burglars shouldn’t take that risk of being killed.

Yes, sometimes you DO go shooting people. Rightly so. Laudably so, as a matter of fact.

rdd #39: So it’s not Republicans who are behind the erosion of our 4th amendment rights. Nice to hear. I guess it must be those nefarious liberal Democrats who have been sacrificing individual rights to a giant paramilitary war on drugs for decades now.

Within the frame of American, gun-owning, shoot-them-before-they-shoot-you, militarized culture, it seems plain that there’s been an injustice in this particular case.

What’s most striking to me about this thread, however, as a Canadian reader, is how normalized that culture seems to be for most of the contributors.

America. Exceptional indeed. Terrifyingly exceptional.

Maye’s conviction is complete BS, the cops were negligent in not finding out EXACTLY who they were going to raid before doing a no knock.

No knocks, in and of themselves, are stupid and dangerous. So what if the perp flushes a half ounce of coke down the toilet? Doesnt sacrificing a bit of the case warrant a potentially saved life? And, when no knocks are at the wrong house, often times armed citizens will fire on the cops, getting both the cop and themselves injured/killed. No knocks are just stupid, period.

Lastly, if I were in the same situation and people broke into my house in the night, Id be thinking about my daughter and wife’s safety first. You cant see who it is or decide what their intent is in the dark, it is they who initiated the confrontation by BREAKING INTO YOUR HOUSE. Knock on the door, annouce you are police and allow the ‘suspect’ to answer the door. At least this lessens the chance of mistaken identity and a gunfight.

mq:
I guess it must be those nefarious liberal Democrats who have been sacrificing individual rights to a giant paramilitary war on drugs for decades now.

Yeah, I pine for the Clinton administration and its suspension of the War on Drugs. And have you noticed how New York City, Northern California and Massachussets have all stopped violently enforcing drug laws?

Seriously, Republicans and Democrats are equally guilty of dragging this country into an unwinnable War on Some Drugs. Never kid yourself otherwise.

And have you noticed how New York City, Northern California and Massachussets have all stopped violently enforcing drug laws?

I take your meaning, but the governors of New York, California, and Massachussets are all Republicans, and in the case of MA and NY, have been since the early to mid Nineties.

That’s more of a case of Democratic cowardice than malignance. Mind that it only takes a tiny minority of Democrats to tip the scales.

Implicit in the forth amendments protection from unreasonable searches and seizures is its recognition of individual freedom. That safeguard has been declared to be “as of the very essence of constitutional liberty”
The guaranty of which “is as important and as imperative as are the guaranties of the other fundamental rights of individual citizens.”

Gouled v. United States, 255 U.S. 298, 304 (1921): cf. Powell v. Alabama 287 U.S. 45, [374 U.S. 23, 33] 65-68 (1932) While the language of Forth Amendment is “general,” it forbids every search that is unreasonable; it protects all, those suspected or known to be offenders as well as innocent and unquestionably extends to the premises where the search was made”

18 U.S.C. 3109 and RCW 10.31.040 violated

“A lawful entry is the indispensable predicate of a reasonable search” in Gouled v. United States, 255 U.S. 298, 30-306, the U.S Supreme court held that a search would violate the Fourth Amendment if the entry were illegal weather accomplished by “force or “obtained by stealth instead of by force or coercion.” Similarly, rigid restrictions upon unannounced entries are essential if the Forth Amendment’s prohibition against invasion of the security and privacy of the home is to have any meaning.

Innocent citizens should not suffer the shock, fright or embarrassment attendant upon an unannounced police entry [374 U.S. 23, 58]

The Fourth Amendment’s protections include the security of the householder against unannounced invasions by police. [374 U.S. 23, 54]

Two reasons rooted in the Constitution clearly compel the courts to refuse to recognize exceptions in other situations [374 U.S. 23, 56] when there is no showing that those within were or had been aware of the officer’s presence. The first is that any exception not requiring a showing of such awareness implies a rejection of the inviolable presumption of innocence. The excuse for failing to knock or announce the officer’s mission where the occupants are oblivious to his presence can only be an almost automatic assumption that the suspect within will resist the officer’s attempt to enter peacefully, or will frustrate the arrest by an attempt to escape, or will attempt to destroy whatever possibly incriminating evidence he may have. Such assumptions do obvious violence to the presumption of innocence. Indeed , the violence is compounded by another assumption, also necessarily involved , that a suspect to whom the officer first makes known his presence will further violate the law. It need be hardly be said that not every suspect is in fact guilty of the offense of which he is suspected and that not everyone who is in fact guilty will forcibly resist arrest or attempt to escape or destroy evidence. [374 U.S. 23, 57]

#81 Jimbo wrote: “Ah, the whining, oh-so-holy Canadian enters the lists. How a country that invented hockey could have become such a nation of pussies I’ll never understand…”

Amazing how much rarer violent crime and murder is there, though, eh Jimbo? Maybe they’re onto something.