International women’s day in Iran

Why do they want a ban on polygamy (in the BBC link)?

Probably because when and wherever it has been practiced it usually goes hand in hand with female subservience, child brides, tribal and patriachal value systems and domestic violence. It might make a fulfilling lifestyle choice for a handful of individuals in developed liberal democratic countries which have acheived (or at least made progress towards) women’s liberation, but its a pretty poor social institution in general.

I’d wondered how long it would take for abb1 to start trolling this thread. I’m glad to see he doesn’t disapoint.

Polygamy + arranged marriages = bad for women

You know, with man-hating islamocommunoqueerecofeminazis running the country, we should be able to have abb1 sacrificed to the Goddess, or eaten, or taken away to a harem to be somebody’s concubine, or something.

Can one of you man-hating islamocommunoqueerecofeminazis who run our one-great country look into that?

Thanks

Do you have even a small clue what this is actually about?

This is about solidarity with the women’s rights movement. I’m sure everybody here is in agreement with the women’s rights movement, I certainly am.

So, you can have a thread without comments. Alternatively, we could have a lively conversation.

OK, now I’ll shut up, out of respect. Sorry, I didn’t mean to upset anybody.

I usually agree with much of abb1’s subversive writings, but here, his/her flippant dismissal of these women’s activism is off the mark. These women do NOT want external intervention (of US/UK administration variety, or indeed of a sort of euro-centric and tone-deaf feminism that is blind to imperial uses of feminism) on their behalf, and believe that change comes through constant contentious action. As such they have chosen a series of distinct and discrete items over which there is contention within the Islamic law (as interpreted and practiced in Iran) and by protesting over these items they hope to chip away at the discriminatory edifice of law in Iran.

Polygamy is one of these items. Iranian law had made some some efforts at making the practice more equitable, but in practice, it is impossible to make the institution equitable for all women. Law/justice, in Iran as elsewhere, is not blind. Gender, class, urban/rural location etc. all result in differential applications of the law. Precisely the kind of women who are most vulnerable to vagaries of unequal justice -younger, poorer, possibly more rural women- are also those who on average are subjected to polygamy.

Besides, women have been more successful than almost any other group in transforming the political space in Iran since the revolution (their ever-increasing engagement in politics, their constant struggle for voice, their ability to influence language, agenda, etc.) and for this reason the regime fears them. That is why these women (some of whom I know personally) are now put into prison and subjected to god knows what sorts of beatings and indignities.

I usually respect abb1’s subversive interventions, but here her/his flippant remarks are way off the mark.

First of all, these women are now subjected to beatings, insults, and god knows what other kinds of dignities, so frankly, whether or not they had a license to protest is irrelevant. In a related aside, since when has civil disobedience/protest/contentious action required the permission of authorities?

Secondly, activist women in Iran occupy positions all along the political spectrum. While many are secular, the majority would identify as Muslim, and a significant portion are Islamists (which is different than being Muslim). The one thing they all share is a profound opposition to violent external intervention in their name (of the variety used by Bush/Blair et al). Furthermore, many would consider themselves “Third World Feminists”, i.e. acutely aware that imperial or neocolonial policies of intervention all too co-opt a feminist discourse and has done so for decades as an instrument of power. This was as true of Lord Cromer in Egypt as it is of Bush and the Afghan women.

Thirdly, these women’s struggle against polygamy is part of a larger strategy of activist women in Iran. This strategy is incremental institutionalisation of particular rights. but as importantly, it is to transform the edifice of the law. Islamic law -as interpreted and practiced in Iran- makes some minor allowances for first wives to give them some voice in their husband’s choosing of a second wife, but she has no right of veto. More importantly, these laws don’t even protect the most vulnerable populations, i.e. younger, poorer women in more rural areas, because after all, law/justice in Iran (as elsewhere) is never blind, but rather subject to variation on the basis of gender, class, wealth, you name it.

These women are to be admired to trying to change small things so as to make the larger environment more hospitable to women. Solidarity is definitely in order.

The “complexity” some people are referring to concerns the fact that there’s a difference between speaking for people and supporting them when they choose to speak for themselves.

Solidarity is definitely in order.

Apparently my critical stance on the BBC reports and the acknowledgement of the cultural differences has been equaled to support of the repressions. I won’t comment as this is simply absurd.

laleh, thank you for the details. The issue you mention, since when has civil disobedience/protest/contentious action required the permission of authorities is quite interesting but perhaps better left for a separate thread. I hope somebody of the regulars would bring it up someday. Suffice to say, in some countries you need the authorities blessing before you proceed with your protest.

Jet, your interpretation is really wild but, need I say, has almost nothing to do with my words. To clear any misunderstanding, yes, I consider UK to be the most authoritarian state in Western Europe. The really lamentable side is that (as is always the case) substantial part of the population apparently support that. Remember the barbaric “Support our troops”? Not to mention that a mass murderer and an outright trickster was re-elected as a Prime Minister.

that comment was for derrida derider

“whenever I hear the word “culture” I reach for my Browning.”

When I read this my first thought was, “Robert or Elizabeth?”

As a British Iranian who has visited Iran many times, I always find it interesting to get the “Western” view of Iranian culture through discussions like this one.

While I couldn’t possibly deny stories like this one are both true and point to a worrying problem, I have never, ever while in Iran, witnessed oppression of women in any form. Indeed, the women in my family are strong, confident and hardly subject to their husbands nor any other man for that matter. Ignorance is not bliss however – my point simply being that life is not a perpetual nightmare for women, incidents like the reaction to these women’s protest are not commonplace. If anything, the theocracy’s maltreatment of women in the name of upholding Islamic law is no worse than that of men in general.

It’s hard to deny that Iran has a long way to go in terms of providing basic civil rights we all take for granted. It seems strange however that so much attention is focussed on Iran, when places like Saudi Arabia still deny even the most basic human rights to women, and there is open rape, torture and mutilation of women in places like Sudan.

If we were to somehow rank nations on the basis of their treatment of women – I bet all the money in my pocket that Iran won’t be as close to the bottom of the pile as the media attention implies. Plus let us not forget that Iran is moving, albeit slowly, in the direction of reform, something which isn’t close to being on the agenda in other states with similar issues.

According to “the latest news”:http://www.meydaan.com/English/showarticle.aspx?arid=184&cid=52, all but three women have been released. These is the information that I received about the three women that are still under arrest:

Jila Baniyaghoub is a well-known journalist. She is the editor of the website of the Iranian Women’s Society and the editor of the society and women’s sections of Sarmaye newspaper. She is best-known for her book on Iranian women’s journalism and for her reports from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Shadi Sadr is a prominent lawyer, journalist, and activist. She founded Zanan-e Iran, the first website dedicated to the work of Iranian women’s rights activists, and she has written numerous articles and several books on the subject of Iranian women and their legal rights. Shadi Sadr has represented a number of persecuted activists and journalists and has donated her time in successfully overturning the convictions of several women sentenced to execution.
Shadi Sadr is also director of Raahi, a center that supports women attaining their legal rights.

Mahboubeh Abbasgholizadeh is the editor of the Zanan quarterly journal and is a key member of the Campaign Against Stoning. She also serves as the director of the NGO Training Center. In November 2004, Mahboubeh Abbasgholizadeh was arrested as a result of her activism on women’s rights and was detained for over a month.

re: hidari

Let me say that I find your comments in regard of Iran and Greece highly simplified and misleading.

Iran is NOT run by “religious people” who “actually run the state in Islam”. Please return to reality. In Iran religion has large influence on state level BUT Iran is organised in issentialy western manner, with Constitution and sophisticated bodies for the Executive, Legislative and Judiciary branch of the Government. All of the members of those bodies are elected, directly or indirectly by voting system. There is a universal suffrage in Iran. For you own information, Iran is not a theocratic state in the strict sense of the word as the Theocracy mirror a divine order as an organisational model. Traditionally such states are monarchy and the head of the state serve also as the ultimate spiritual authority, the divine on earth (bizarrely, UK remain theocratic on paper: the Queen is the head of the state and the head of the Anglican Church).

Oh, and let me add, to your disappointment probably, that immediately after Chomeini rose to power the establishment of the Islamic republic was by plebiscite for all over age of (!)16 and regardless of gender.

Iran simply represent a form of governance that make Anglo-Saxon countries “reach for the Browning”. It is mostly state owned economic, with state funded welfare, muslim, and annoyingly with legitimate form of Government. All in all, worst than Cuba.

I am inclined to think that a dialogue with Iran, complemented with free flow of cultural exchange would have benefited Iranian women as well. The way Iranian state exist today – governance, economics, education, science and healthcare suggest that Iranias are inclined to implement Western models.

Classical Antiquity was some time ago I believe… It did not invented (Western) modernity strictly speaking. Modern Greece is shaped to a significant degree by the Christian Ortodoxy, arguably the most rigid form of Christianity; and the modern Greek statehood was build upon rampant chauvinism which, of course, did not exist in Antiquity.
The example I cited about arranging marriages in Greece has nothing to do with the lack of sophistication or economic status. On contrary, apparently the practice goes hand in hand with them. In addition, in families with two children of opposing gender, the boy more often than not gets a higher and better level of education; homosexuality in the Western sense – as an identity, not just as a practice – still evoke markedly hostile reaction in Greece; and the macho and sexist culture there remain surprisingly vital.

An apology to Ingrid Robeyns and the rest for the not directly relevant post.

‘That is by far the stupidest comment on this thread.’

I do apologies for my non-racist statements about the Greeks. I promise from now on that my posts will consist entirely of wild generalisations about various ethnic groups. In fact, it should be taken as read in any of my further posts (whether I say it or not) that all Greeks are greasy foreigners who do nothing but pinch girl’s arses, that Italians are untrustworthy and excitable, that the French smell, that Arabs are all terrorists, that Jews are all mean (and probably rule the world let’s face it), and that Americans are all loud, obnoxious and all wear Hawaiian shirts without exception.

‘Arabs with pants’? Jesus Christ.

In response to all the ‘why Iran’ question I would refer you back to Ingrid: ‘The reason why this post is not about all women in the world but specifically about women in Iran, adn in particular the women who have been arrested, is that this has happend this week, and the arrests may have been caused by a motivation to prevent Iranian women from celebrating/marking international women’s day. They have asked the women’s movements worldwide to show their solidarity, and I was hoping we could do that here at Crooked Timber too.’.

But obviously that’s just a bit too difficult for some people. Incidentally, what’s the correct racist stereotype for the Iranians, used by ‘world weary’ (white, middle class, male) travellers? Because if Iran had a ‘a bad reputation as far as women are concerned’ then that would be the point proved, wouldn’t it? I mean who needs Amnesty international when you have racism to tell you what’s true?

“Greece is a ‘traditional’ culture???!! Greece?? The country what (with Plato and Aristotle and others) invented (Western) modernity? ”
oy.

I quoted your own insipid generalizations back at you and threw in a couple of my own- courtesy of an old friend, a woman who’s lived in Athens and all over the Gulf for 20 years. Mine at least have a little weight.

So, Iran does not have the internet? It has a large blogging community within in that a large group of literary bloggers. Tehran itself has a very cosmopolitan cultural life.

There is no need to see any debate in the comments of Laleh, Matjouz, Dan Kervick or myself. That was my point.
The risks of overstatement may, or may not, be evident in Ingrid Robeyns’ post but are front and center in abb1’s button pushing and your blather.

The Iranian women’s movement is not a western invention and is not a wholly funded operation the the CIA, the US State Dept. or USAID. Moreover it is a movement of the educated and sophisticated. It should be and can be both understood and supported. It is to be respected, as Iran itself is to be respected, not responsed to with either pity or contempt, the two choices most often in evidence in debates such as this one.

Pity is contempt. I always think that’s a obvious point but still I have to make it again and again.

Seth

you are babbling. I have absolutely, literally no idea what you are talking about. (‘The Iranian women’s movement is not a western invention and is not a wholly funded operation the the CIA, the US State Dept. or USAID.’….er….what? Please God don’t tell me you think that I think they are). I’m not going to throw back my own experiences of Greece (and I know plenty about the country) back at YOU. Or continue to let my mind boggle about where ‘pity is contempt’ comes from. Or ask where you got the mysterious idea that I believe that Iran does not have the internet from.

And please don’t try and tell me where you got these bizarre ideas from, as, believe me, from the bottom of my heart, I truly do not care.

In any case, this is degenerating into another thread in which white males congratulate themselves on their knowledge of countries which they have not visited and whose language they do not speak, so I’m going to bow out now and let sane people like Ingrid and Katherine talk about what this thread was intended to be about (the oppression of Iranian women) and not the truth or otherwise of racist stereotypes about the Greeks.

Hidari you refer to Ingrid Robeyns and Katherine. Without meaning disrespect to either I’ll quote Laleh and then Helena Cobban (below):

Secondly, activist women in Iran occupy positions all along the political spectrum. While many are secular, the majority would identify as Muslim, and a significant portion are Islamists (which is different than being Muslim). The one thing they all share is a profound opposition to violent external intervention in their name (of the variety used by Bush/Blair et al). Furthermore, many would consider themselves “Third World Feminists”, i.e. acutely aware that imperial or neocolonial policies of intervention all too co-opt a feminist discourse and has done so for decades as an instrument of power. This was as true of Lord Cromer in Egypt as it is of Bush and the Afghan women.

Here’s Cobban from November of last year on Well-organized people power in northern Gaza

I have long argued– including in this article on Hizbullah, or this article on the women’s organizations of Hamas– that the bedrock of the political strength of well-organized Islamist organizations like Hamas or Hizbullah has been their ability to build sturdy, resilient civilian mass organizations covering all sectors of society– rather than merely their creation of the (much smaller) armed organizations whose activities seem to get most of the coverage in the western media.

Well now, the Hamas women have played a hugely important role in defusing the latest crisis in the northern Gaza town of Beit Hanoun.
continue

Gosh. A thread about feminism gets taken over by a bunch of commenters who would rather have a shouting match about more manly topics like War, the theory of cultural relativism and Israel/Palestine. This must be the first time something like this has ever happened on the internet.

nell,
http://meydaan.org/English/campaign.aspx?cid=46