OK, lemme follow up on my Talking Heads thread, in which I was fairly decisively refuted.
In my defense: I really didn’t quite say what I meant. What I really meant was that the Talking Heads (purists can pretend they didn’t see the ‘the’) seem surprisingly unimitated for such an influential band. Let me define (or at least refine) my terms: they are influential in the sense that they are well-known and well-regarded and actually listened to quite a bit. One assumes that any such band has effects on others, and I don’t deny it in this case. A band that is influential and also imitated would be, say, Nirvana. Everyone liked them and still likes them. But, additionally: a lot of other musicians picked up a few simple tricks from them. (Not just from them, but they were a major vector for the spread.) The loud/soft grunge thing. Bands that are influential and imitated tend to be those that are doing something good that is also, in a sense, readily portable. It’s musically discrete. You notice it when you hear it. And it’s not so damn hard to do well that no one else can pick it up easily. Lots of influential bands have been that because they were, in a sense, inspired primitivists, technique-wise, ergo imitable. They teach you how to D.I.Y. It’s easier to swipe stuff from the Ramones than Steely Dan.
Anyway, I think I was saying that the Heads have been imitated relatively little for such an influential band. There are a lot of nerd indy frontmen out there, granted. Not so many worldbeat nerds (worldnerd music?).
So what do people think of the imitation/influence axis? Are there any interesting points to be made about it? What are the most influential bands that no one imitates? Or am I just talking nonsense again.
And here is your musical freebie for the day. For some reason Amazon is giving away a whole album, The Best of Naxos Early Music
{ 41 comments }
now_what 07.16.08 at 5:05 am
I always thought the only interesting thing about Talking Heads was Brian Eno. I wish I could hear Remain in Light with David Byrne’s voice erased. When someone tries too hard to be interesting, it’s boring.
Joseph 07.16.08 at 8:22 am
I’d offer up Wilco as a contemporary band that isn’t inspiring much imitation. It’s true that a lot of alt country sounded similar in the Uncle Tupelo days, but I can’t think of any band that has followed Wilco into the different places they have explored.
James Wimberley 07.16.08 at 8:57 am
“.. I was fairly decisively refuted.”
Does refute allow degrees? Being a little bit refuted is IMHO like being a little bit pregnant. Refuted is the logical counterpart of “shot dead”.
John Holbo 07.16.08 at 9:07 am
“Does refute allow degrees?” I think refute admits of degrees in a case like this.
Tim May 07.16.08 at 9:15 am
“As required by our Digital Content providers, Digital Content will, unless otherwise designated, be available only to customers located in the United States.”
Adam Roberts 07.16.08 at 9:56 am
How did you get that free amazon Early Music album, Singapore-wallah? I’ve just tried to download it and have been informed that it’s only available for free download to customers in the USA. Or is Singapore now part of the USA?
Adam Roberts 07.16.08 at 9:57 am
And as I now see, Tim May has already made my point. Move along please. Nothing to see here.
John Holbo 07.16.08 at 11:30 am
Hmmm, I have a US billing address and US main shipping address for all my Amazon stuff. I didn’t mean to be sneaky about my digital downloads, nor to frustrate non-US based readers with an offer they can’t accept.
CK Dexter 07.16.08 at 1:20 pm
“So what do people think of the imitation/influence axis? Are there any interesting points to be made about it? What are the most influential bands that no one imitates?”
Might it be the case that bands that are influential yet rarely imitated are primarily influential for reasons other than their musically imitable characteristics?
For example, maybe the Talking Heads are primarily influential for general quirkiness and (so-called) “artiness” more than for their music. Just as, say, Joy Division are probably influential more for reasons of intriguing biography and awesome art design than for their music.
The added implication might be that an influence/imitation disconnect might be an indicator that musical importance and/or accomplishments of a band has been overestimated. (As in exhibits A and B in the previous paragraph).
John Holbo 07.16.08 at 1:26 pm
“Just as, say, Joy Division are probably influential more for reasons of intriguing biography and awesome art design than for their music.”
It’s funny CK dexter, but I was actually thinking about using Joy Division as an example of an imitated band because I happened to be listening to a podcast in which the director of the biopic, “Control” – Corbin whatsisname, famous photographer – explained that the actors performed some of the music in the film. Apparently they weren’t really musicians when production started, or else they had pretty rudimentary abilities. And it only took them weeks of practice to be performing Joy Division covers that sounded like the originals. I think of Joy Division as having an influential sound, and in part maybe that’s due to the fact that it’s not hard to produce. I dunno.
Glenn Kenny 07.16.08 at 2:22 pm
Two things: the Heads at their best never had an entirely homogeneous sound—”’77” doesn’t sound like “More Songs” doesn’t sound like “Fear,” and so on. Also, whatever you might think of Byrne’s quirks and/or voice, the guy was a fantastic songwriter. He wrote terrific (mutant) pop songs with iron-spine structures. Which not everybody can do even if they are under an influence…
CK Dexter 07.16.08 at 3:21 pm
The band from “Control” did indeed do a convincing job of it. On the musical side, this is because at bottom Joy Division was a punk band, thus as structurally simple and as easy to replicate as any punk band. But what really sells it in “Control” is that the lead has Ian Curtis’ vocal style and on-stage manner down perfectly.
So, although Joy Division sound has often been imitated, it’s usually the vocal style more than the music. For example, Interpol–the vocals clearly imitate Ian Curtis, but the music, while reminiscent of JD, is equally reminiscent of any and every other post-punk band of the 80’s.
bab 07.16.08 at 3:47 pm
And it’s not so damn hard to do well that no one else can pick it up easily.
This probably gets at some of it. More examples of influence will come to mind of easily imitable precursors. Your Steely Dan example is a good one.
IMO, TH was most innovative in pushing pop-song form (but really not very far), incorporating non-pop influences, idiosyncratic (and smart) lyrics, and perpetuating a generally iconoclastic image. All to their credit, and I wish I were listening to them right now. But contrary to the point made above, none of this is particularly difficult to imitate in itself, but the effects will be substantially filtered by the sensibilities of the influenced. Nevertheless, I thought the previous thread raised a number of reasonably clear influences.
bab 07.16.08 at 3:50 pm
Obviously, the Steely Dan comment was the converse (obverse?) example of the second sentence in 13.
Jared 07.16.08 at 4:06 pm
Influential but not imitated: The Fall (to stick the the Manchester theme…) Pavement always talked about loving them, but I never heard the similarities.
Not sure if this is because Mark E. Smith is just inimitable, or because they still put out an album every year anyway, so there wouldn’t be much point.
Now I’m wondering if there’s something about this question that’s particularly relevant to post-punk. Which reminds me that I still haven’t read Simon Reynolds’s book.
Jason 07.16.08 at 4:26 pm
I’ve thought about this issue before by contrasting “importance” vs. “influence” – I’d call TH incredibly important (as well as great), but not influential, as few sounded like them or even tried. For my money, the world’s most important yet least influential album is Van Morrison’s “Astral Weeks” – everyone loves it (or should), but there’s not much you can point to and see its influence, even on other Van albums.
pp 07.16.08 at 5:37 pm
I have always wondered why no band has ever imitated The Cure. Clearly bands have been influenced by them but no one has ever really come along with a similar sound that has the quirkiness and moodiness of Robert Smith and company.
Another of my personal favorites that has no real imitators I know of is Oingo Boingo. Danny Elfman’s music is almost universally know through the scoring of some of the most popoular movies of the past twenty years, but the sound of the band he fronted for a decade and a half is completely unique.
dsquared 07.16.08 at 6:02 pm
I think of Joy Division as having an influential sound, and in part maybe that’s due to the fact that it’s not hard to produce
ambiguity on “produce” here. Joy Division’s music is quite simple, so I can believe that the actors found that it wasn’t hard to play. But the sound is actually really rather difficult to produce, which is why I am guessing that the guy who plays Martin Hannett in “Control” wasn’t actually responsible for production on the soundtrack. Note of course that this distinction only makes sense in the context of some kinds of electronically amplified music where the timbre and dynamics of the music can be controlled by someone other than the performer.
pp 07.16.08 at 6:10 pm
I think of Joy Division as having an influential sound,
If you couple Joy Division with New Order you have a very influential band, in fact I would say New Order has had a longer influence with their new romantic/electronic sound than Joy Division with their punk sound. Most newer punk outifts are going to harken back to The Ramones, Sex Pistols, or Iggy Pop than to Joy Division. However bands like Chemical Brothers and most electronic/dance outfits today are going to really list New Order as a top influence.
NickS 07.16.08 at 6:22 pm
Bands that are influential and imitated tend to be those that are doing something good that is also, in a sense, readily portable. It’s musically discrete.
Where does one draw the line between influence and imitation?
What would you say about someone like Joni Mitchell? Clearly extremely influential on both women’s music and the singer/songwrite movement generally, but almost nobody else sounds exactly like Joni Mitchell.
blah 07.16.08 at 6:28 pm
I would suggest Sonic Youth as another band that has influenced more than it has been imitated. They were a constantly evolving band that experimented a lot but never developed a “signature” sound.
qb 07.16.08 at 6:47 pm
Can we say that influence and imitation are on an axis? I would have thought they’re incommensurate: imitation is a measure of the degree to which an artist intends to produce material similar to the original. Influence is a measure of the degree to which an artist’s familiarity with the original causes her to produce similar material. And both of these, of course, are distinct from the degree of similarity between the original and the derivative material.
JP Stormcrow 07.16.08 at 7:02 pm
I do think you have a point. For instance, one of the elements where I think TH was influential, but that did not necessarily lead to folks imitating their sound was in helping to overcome the Fear of Disco of the late ’70s.
winer 07.16.08 at 8:21 pm
i am interested in the difference between imitation and influence. i imagine twin scenarios: in the first, artist B is influenced by artist A. in the second, artist B imitates artist A. i would think that the first scenario holds artist B in higher regard than the second scenario does. i’m not saying this well, but what i mean is that imitation comes before influence. influence implies that an original voice incorporates other original voices, where imitation implies that a derivative voice appropriates the voice of others. it’s easier to imitate than to be influenced, because to be influenced you have to have something original going on in the first place. i am not sure what this has to do with Talking Heads, but it’s interesting to think about. you made me consider the way Raymond Carver was imitated by a million bad writers, but he only influenced the good ones.
Chris Bertram 07.16.08 at 9:06 pm
Richard Thompson … massively influential in getting people to listen to all kinds of stuff they never would have otherwise, but impossible to imitate.
derekm 07.16.08 at 9:34 pm
#3 It was just a case of a missing comma: “I was fairly, decisively refuted”
CK Dexter 07.16.08 at 10:27 pm
“I would suggest Sonic Youth as another band that has influenced more than it has been imitated.”
Off the top of my head: Broken Social Scene could count as a Sonic Youth imitator. But it’s true, there are that many.
“They were a constantly evolving band that experimented a lot but never developed a “signature†sound.”
On the contrary, they clearly have a signature sound: Second Rate Velvets Imitators. I think that’s the real reason they have few imitators, most imitate their source material.
CK Dexter 07.16.08 at 10:28 pm
Oops: should read “But it’s true, there are not that many.”
Roy Belmont 07.16.08 at 10:54 pm
Neil Young is/was cited a lot as influential, or at least avidly looked toward which must carry some weight of influence, by some surprising artists. David Bowie for instance.
But what he does/did at his best is so refined, not in the hoity-toity sense but in the sense of stripped down to the artistic core, imitations don’t work too well.
Righteous Bubba 07.16.08 at 11:09 pm
Not so many worldbeat nerds (worldnerd music?).
Now that I think of it Peter Gabriel might have been influenced by the Talking Heads. A little Google action reveals Chris Frantz making the same claim. Gabriel moved from melody-based to rhythm-based songs pretty quickly at around the time the Talking Heads were blazing their trail. Eno did some work for Genesis and some of the TH musicians worked with Gabriel.
That’s a fairly big deal I think.
novakant 07.16.08 at 11:36 pm
What are the most influential bands that no one imitates?
To my knowledge Kraftwerk and Vince Clark (Depeche Mode, Yazoo, Erasure) haven’t been imitated much, but to this day they are extremely influential.
Righteous Bubba 07.16.08 at 11:43 pm
Vince Clarke
Other people had synthesizers and wrote pop songs too: what can anyone rip off from Vince Clarke?
seth edenbaum 07.17.08 at 12:10 am
Kraftwerk. Hugely influential
The beats behind the early years of hip hop.
novakant 07.17.08 at 12:12 am
what can anyone rip off from Vince Clarke?
Go to your local club – you know, where young people dance – to find out.
Righteous Bubba 07.17.08 at 12:25 am
Go to your local club – you know, where young people dance – to find out.
Well clearly The Human League were the major influence there. Or was it Blancmange? Or Men Without Hats? Or Soft Cell? Or OMD? Or Cabaret Voltaire? Or New Order? Or The Pet Shop Boys? Or A Flock of Seagulls? Or Propaganda? Maybe Yello?
Scott 07.17.08 at 1:46 am
Maybe it’s my age, but I’m convinced Sonic Youth had quite a bit of influence, at least within indie rock. And they certainly had their imitators through the ’90s (Blonde Redhead, Unwound, etc.)
Having listened to a lot of SY and VU, I hear the influence but not the imitation. Early on you hear earlier New York bands like Mars, Teenage Jesus or Glenn Branca’s stuff. The real connection between the two bands is their toying with the avant-garde.
My vote for influential band no one imitated has to be Kraftwerk as well. They’re the key to just about every band righteous bubba named and a lot more, but very few bands went in for their campy conceptual act (Telex and Devo being exceptions).
richard 07.17.08 at 2:47 am
Well clearly The Human League were the major influence there. Or was it Blancmange? Or Men Without Hats? Or Soft Cell? Or OMD? Or Cabaret Voltaire? Or New Order? Or The Pet Shop Boys? Or A Flock of Seagulls? Or Propaganda? Maybe Yello?
No, four of your list were basically one hit wonders and wore Vince’s influence on their sleeves. One of them actually was Vince in disguise. That said, Giorgio Moroder and Tom Moulton were more important in putting the whole scene together. Of course, they were influential and widely imitated.
Vince is a great call for influential but not imitated. Also, Jimmy Somerville, Elvis Costello.
John Emerson 07.17.08 at 3:01 am
Van Morrison. Influential? Imitated?
Chryssie Hynde?
Righteous Bubba 07.17.08 at 4:15 am
Vince is a great call for influential but not imitated.
You know, I think I’m thinking of influential as “musically important”. So I grant that Vince is influential.
Righteous Bubba 07.17.08 at 4:17 am
So I grant that Vince is influential.
…but not at all musically interesting or important.
Righteous Bubba 07.17.08 at 4:54 am
Sonic Youth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf2qYa8c-cA&feature=related
Smashing Pumpkins:
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