Burlesquoni Rides Again!

As OP suggests, it looks like he’s hit on the nub of the matter as far as the distinctive aspect of this sex scandal goes. His strategy seems to be emphasising the ‘not paying money’ side – and on the macho alpha-male type premise (not shared by StevenAttewell nor me, but still), that seems about right. Separately, it embodies a generally sound strategy of narrowing the issue to manageable ground. (E.g. ‘circumstances surrounding’ the death of Dr Kelly.)

Being able to provide permits and giving jewellery fall short of the low-status ‘John’ extreme of the spectrum: they’re close to the fancy car, nice clothes and hotels range, an accepted part of the alpha-male phenomenon.

I suppose for the ideal maximum degree of macho kudos, the guy should be ugly, poor, charmless and callous and still ‘get any woman’ for no discernible reason at all. But providing material goods is certainly deemed OK – perhaps more so the more control over the female the alpha male gets or keeps. Deciding what form the reward should take is some kind of control. Perhaps a rule of thumb is that the more liquid the asset provided, the less the female is subjugated (‘conquered’), and the less status is gained/retained.

B might well be able to head off the threat to his image from the macho status angle, especially given his media dominance, which as the Times suggests seems in one way or another to extend to the state broadcaster.

The Catholic media losing patience, mentioned at the end of the Reuters report linked in the OP is a different matter. Not able to assess how serious a one from B’s perspective.

By the way, credit for a successful prediction will be discounted for caution [insert exclamation mark, ‘lol’, winking smiley, etc to taste].

He is doing a good job for Italy, no reason for his government to fall
People understood who is really behind all these attacks [that will probably intensify in the days of the G8], which is why they still voted for him
Franco Frattini is from il popolo della liberta’ and never said anything about the age of consent [unless you found it written on one of Murdoch newspapers]

Franco Frattini, saying something about the age of consent.

All I know about Italian politics I learned by watching gialli. On the one hand, it’s a nation of extraordinary filmmakers, where even the cheapest exploitation film is full of insights into values and character. But it seems to be a nation where everyone is either a fascist or a communist. If Berlusconi falls, I will shed no tears, but is there no non-authoritarian strain in Italian politics? Where is the mushy middle? There is a part of me that would love to see a technocratic weakling in nominal control, failing to effect real change in any direction.

oops: circenses

Henry,

Hah! I read up on Prodi on Wikipedia. It’s good to know (I guess) that black-gloved assassins can continue to fear the extremists in power, even as they confound the occasional foreign resident who witnesses a horrible crime, while the police in their incompetence bluster their way through a fruitless investigation.

I had the same reaction as you, Henry, that Prodi _was_ the technocratic weakling. What I don’t understand is why didn’t Prodi work out? From what little I heard about Italian politics, there was nothing that struck me as worse than Burlusconi.

I am perturbed that no one seems to have picked up on…a worryingly predatory attitude
non-definitively documented, and non-stentorianly repudiated, @2 FWLIW

After living in Italy for 8 years, I’ll probably never understand the italian pyche well enough
to fully explain how on earth Berlusconi (or anyone even remotely like him) could be celebrated, elected, admired, and/or remain in office before and after these allegations. The only partial explanation that I can feel confident in is that the opposition is just so lacking. Prodi, for example, was called the mortadella and for good reason. The Italian populace is not simply apathetic, and they are, but actively turn a blind out to his very significant flaws and faults. Of course him controlling essentially one half (or more) of the media helps, but that certainly doesn’t fully explain anything: everyone already knows he’s an unprincipled, devious, immoral cad – squalid. Frankly, I’d be surprised if this issue brings down the government, or even if it were to leave little more than a scratch on him. But it pains me to say that, as it’s as much as comdemnation of Italy and Italians, more so even, as it is of Il Cavaliere.
As for Katherine’s comment….well you’re right of course, but as Tim said, Italy is at best one generation removed from that mentality.

The only explanation I see for the Italians’ lamentably persistant backing of Berlusconi is that they don’t identify with the state, and mostly resent it.

Berlusconi is what the inbred, pompous and self-serving political and bureaucratic class that inhabits the state machinery deserves, as they see it. He is a big “**** you” from the electorate to them. Plus, he has entertainment value like a circus director. “Burlesquoni” is very apt.

“Burlesquoni” works pretty well on the page.

glenn @18 everyone already knows he’s an unprincipled, devious, immoral cad – squalid
or at least everyone already knows certain facts [which constitute his being a SUDIC].

I don’t really see Berlusconi, ethically speaking, as that different from his fellow members of the Axis of Moral Imbecility Bush and Blair, even in the latter case down to a culturally adapted – and imagery-wise much more nauseating for some reason – sexual boasting. Berlusconi just has a more blatantly corrupt culture to work with – and a large helping of braggadoccio and elan (can’t think of appropriate Italian terms offhand).
[edit – and what stostosto said @20]

bert @21 – shurely OK if done ironically, and/or with implied deconstruction (look Mum, no scare quotes!) of the concepts |Nobility|, |chivalry| etc. – droit de seignieur, anyone? (Or ‘cavalier attitude’?)

& @7: the age of consent rises to 16 if the older party has a position of influence over the younger. Like, say, being her Prime Minister. seriously though folks, that wouldn’t hold up as a legal point, unless the Italian constitution is extremely peculiar. In any case – to be fair, as even Berlusconi deserves* – I haven’t come across any suggestion of involvement with under 16s – which for a man in his 70s would arguably in many cases require borderline paedophilia properly so-called.

While engaged in the distasteful and thankless task of being fair to Signor B et al: in dd’s link @6, Frattini’s comment on age of consent was prompted by a direct question on the topic. So while it performs admirably its intended function of refuting Balqis’s sweeping #4, it doesn’t itself provide a clear example of the attempt…to defend Berlusconi against the charge of hanging around with minors referred to by Phil @3. Which is not to say there wasn’t such an attempt.

[*If you think you think he doesn’t, you are probably just being lazy about your understanding of fairness, I tentatively conjecture.]

There is, perhaps, too much emphasis on personality here and not enough on the performance.

All politics is local. A friend of mine from near Padova tells me: when Berlusconi was PM they started building a highway near his town, then Prodi came – they ran out of money and stopped, and now they are building again. Yeah, bread and circus, of course, always, what else? Or “the economy, stupid”, if you prefer.

Tim – fair point. In my defence, it has widely been taken that way – & I’d say it was pretty inept of Frattini to answer that specific question, without referring to the broader question of whether it was appropriate or seemly for a married septuagenarian Prime Minister to hang around with girls too young to vote.

Chris – hey, it’s Chris Hanretty! Nice reviews for Modern Italy – it makes editing a lot easier when a reviewer can actually write. (I particularly liked the Landi.) Anyway, that calculation is deeply depressing, but somehow not surprising. But it doesn’t quite dislodge my image of Prodi as a long-game-playing tessitore in the Moro mould – can you imagine D’Alema holding Rutelli, Mastella, Bertinotti and di Pietro together for as long as two years, let alone Veltroni? I can’t find the quote now, but a Romanian(?) magazine asked Prodi the other month what he thought about the Unione in retrospect. He said he’d always thought it was a valuable initiative, and his judgment had been confirmed by the way that everything had fallen apart the moment it was dropped. I guess he’s off Veltroni’s Christmas card list.

Phil @28 – well, not entirely inept, especially if he thought there might indeed be something to hide. As with the money question, it focusses the debate on a manageable (and minimal, inescapable) issue. As well as the misdirection effect, that means something with the form of a rebuttal can be provided for those who are predisposed to seek one. There might even be a boost from the frisson associated with the mere (it must be mere) possibility of such titillating impropriety – again for avoidance of doubt that’s not my own characterisation of the matter.

+ what novokant & Henri said re bread as one of the reasons for popular momentum (circus provided by Sr B personally – panis & penis?).

To generalise freely, the effect of political scandal (or the procession from allegation to revelation to scandal), unless so utterly wriggle-proof and unarguably inexcusable as to be almost mechanical in its progress, tends to be pretty variable and reflect what people want to believe/judge on the basis of other concerns (along with a host of other factors like desire of opponents to exploit it, ability to control the press etc.).

Blimey, Judge Dread eat your heart out. (To dispel any trace of humour: that’s a fairly obscure ska gag about long sentences.)

Phil, it is not uncommon for neo-fascists to be extraordinarily good at lying. Berlusconi is not to the right of anything, his only position is that he should be able to do whatever he wants (except paying for sex because the non-payment for sex is a defining feature of his personality).

Phil, maybe you are right about Fini, I’m not following Italian politics too closely but I do know that Fini is very different from Berlusconi in the first one having a reactionary ideology and the other one just being power-hungry. The ideology is much more scary imho than the circus. And oe should be at least bevery very paranoid about what Fini says given he clearly would say anything to be runner-up of ‘the unbeatable one’.

Surely Berlusconi hates Communism (I hate communism). I don’t see why surrounding yourself with ideologists is show of ideology. He surrounded himself with Fini and he surrounded himself with Khadaffi. He even surrounded himself with the semblance of a good christian life! Only one thing he is very clear about: he does not pay for sex!

The reason why Berlusconi forces people to remain on life support against their own wish is not a sign of his deep felt convictions. It merely is his understanding that that is what is popular and more importantly even: it is what earns him the support of the organized political militants that are behind the fundamentalist catholics, the racists and the remnants of fascism.

The sad thing here are the Italians; and more specifically those pretending to be in opposition to Berlusconi from the left.

One of the differences between Fini and Berlusconi is that the latter is willing to have open Fascist sympathisers in his party. Another is the issue of immigration, on which Fini has always been well to the Left of Berlusconi. Another is the small question of whether it’s appropriate to make jokes about concentration camp guards at the expense of a German MEP, for which Fini specifically criticised Berlusconi.

I do follow this stuff, and what I read tells me that Berlusconi is well to the Right of Fini, and has been for some time.

Surely Berlusconi hates Communism (I hate communism)

Oh please – do me the favour of reading the whole sentence. Communism for Berlusconi is a label to stick on any and all of his political opponents, including Dario Franceschini (ex-Christian Democrat) and Antonio Di Pietro (no known political affiliation before he formed his party, but generally pretty right-wing).

I do not think it speaks much for his opposition that they can’t undo the trick.

Veltroni actually went along with it – he thought that once he’d dumped the ‘Communists’ Berlusconi would treat him as his ‘loyal opposition’. He knows better now.

As for Fini, he’s 57 years old, he’s the second or third most powerful politician in Italy, and he’s not likely to lose that position for another four years (at least). I think if he was going to drop the mask and come out as a neo-Fascist he would have done it by now.

Phil, he doesn’t have to drop a mask, he’s going for common decency & I do not doubt that he is more decent than many. The scary bit is not the label, or the lack of mauvais mots; the scary bit is what he wants to get done and that there’s not a hair between what he wants and what the pope wants.