Favourite movies

Not a bad list of all-American movies (excepting Shawshank – and for that matter Goodfellas, which though good can’t hold a candle to Scorcese’s best work) but why are US and foreign films on separate lists? The Apu Trilogy and/or The Rules of the Game will outlast anything on the America First list except perhaps Kane. Americans love their movies but as a class are profoundly ignorant of film history. Or any history.

Oh come on, Casablanca’s a furrin movie. People speak French in it from time to time, and there’s that there French song they sing. And that Viktor Laszlo guy, he’s a furriner, as is Paul Henried, and as for Ingrid Bergman – ! Furrin as they come, you betcha. And even Claude Rains isn’t all that Amurikan, or at least he doesn’t talk like an Amurikan. Really Bogart and Wilson are the only Amurikans in the whole movie.

Hey, I liked Shawshank, including the ending – in fact I love the ending, and tend to watch it when the movie is on tv (which it is often), without watching the rest. But that doesn’t make it one of the all-time best movies! (The fact that I don’t want to see the rest, apart from the Mozart bit, might give a hint as to why.)

I’m not sure I agree that the greatness of a movie is at all determined by the number of times you want to watch it again. I’ve only seen Shawshank a handful of times whereas I’ve seen A Few Good Men a lot of times (because I happen to love certain scenes). Surely, the weight of the emotional impact on first viewing is more important than the ability to repeat that impact?

That’s my (admittedly arbitrary) opinion and I confess it’s a little ad hoc but I think there’s some truth in it.

Well…no. I don’t think so. I think one reasonable criterion for that which is best (of course all this is highly debatable, one can’t ground it definitively) is what holds up. What bears repetition. One can read or see Hamlet or Lear or Twelfth Night over and over again, one can read Austen novels an infinite number of times (I’m working on it), one can see great movies again and find things one missed or at least not be bored. Shawshank has a couple of great high points, but the rest of it…? No.

fyreflye: The non-English language movies *are* integrated into the main list. But I also did a separate listing of the top 10 of them just for interest.

Shawshank wasn’t on my own top 10, but it’s a lovely movie. My big gripe is that Psycho, which I consider to be the equal of Vertigo and one of the truly great film works of the twentieth century, secured… 3 votes – two of which were from the Geras household. Sheesh.

I’m not totally sure why, but I love Fargo. Maybe it is because I can picture my becoming the policewoman if she had been raised in the Northwest? The movie just makes me laugh in so many ways.

“Oh come on, Casablanca’s a furrin movie.“—Ophelia Benson

I can’t figure out what prompted this.

“…were deluded enough to vote for the Shawshank Redemption (4th= best movie of all time? — you must be joking!)“—Chris

As has been mentioned, there’s a big difference between favorite movies and best movies. Of course, that makes me wonder why The “Sound of Music” doesn’t appear on the list—also “Princess Bride” and of course, “Star Wars” are extremely well-loved. Anyway, I didn’t like “Shawshank”, either, but it was reasonably well-made and it obviously has great appeal to many people. It belongs on a “favorite movies” list. Not, however, a “best movies” list. Of the eighteen, I’d say that applies most to “Wonderful Life” and “Spinal Tap”, too.

(It’s worth pointing out that for many, many people “favorite” is synonymous with “best”; which is a big part of the problem with the typical American filmgoer’s taste. I was dating a woman last month when we got into a heated discussion where she had trouble understanding the distinction between “I liked it” and “it was good”. We’re not dating anymore.)

“Lebowski” easily rates highly in my personal “favorites” poll—I’m not confident it should be among the best, however. On the other hand, “Fargo” deserves a place in both lists.

The foreign list is disapointing: tilted heavily toward high-profile/popularity foreign films or the canonical best films. I have a lot of “favorites” that would have shown up in that list. “Lola Rennt”, for example. It’s worth nothing that it’s titled “Top Ten Foreign Language Films”— best or favorite, or both? It’s hard for me to believe that “Potemkin” is anyone’s favorite film. As for best, where’s Kieslowski?

Of those eighteen, my favorite would have to be “Pulp Fiction” or “Lebowski”, which marks me as a product of my generation, I suppose. The best film among those is certainly “Kane”, but also “Chinatown” and “Casablanca” are exceptionally good films.

The director’s list is interesting for who’s missing, since it was derived from the film votes.

I do owe Norm an apology for not studying his list more closely; I should have noticed that the foreign movies were part of it (starting with Seven Samauri at aieeee! #30.) I guess originally I wan’t too interested in reading about somebody’s 30th favorite movie until it turned out to be one of the greatest films ever made. But I have to agree – it’s no Shawshank Redemption.

I’d like to leave the Shawshank debate alone but due to the currents of condecension I can’t. It’s simply a great movie on every level. The idea that it’s not “real” as someone pointed out is both false and irrelevant. It’s false because the characters are well-drawn and believable. It’s irrelevant because the same would apply for pretty much every film made before 1970. Seriously, who talks like the people in Casablanca?

As for the whole favourite/best debate, there seems to be lots of agreement that it’s not the same but no criteria to distinguish them. I’ve long held that people who think great anythings are those that are difficult but ultimately rewarding are working out the justifying effect of their cognitive dissonance (the aspect of human behaviour in social psychology that leads people to think that something that took lots of effort is more worthwhile whether it is or not).

Shawshank is the most complete film I have seen that has a happy ending. I wonder how many of the “Shawshank’s naff” crowd would have been quite so critical if Andy Dufresne had been found hanging in his cell.

“I’d like to leave the Shawshank debate alone but due to the currents of condecension I can’t. It’s simply a great movie on every level.”

-jdsm

This is exactly the kind of discussion I have had over and over again about this particular film. Other films are a matter of taste…people may not agree, but they usually have some common ground. Not so with Shawshank.

Sorry, but I am on the condescending team. I simply do not understand what people see in the film, and find it preposterous when they call it a “great movie.” However, I intend no offence to the people who love it. I must acknowledge that there is something valuable in this picture that some of us truly don’t “get.”

Whether I am right or the Shawshankites are is almost irrelevant to me now. I am just amazed that intelligent people can disagree so profoundly about a film that is not politically or culturally controversial.

“The idea that it’s not “real” as someone pointed out is both false and irrelevant. It’s false because the characters are well-drawn and believable. It’s irrelevant because the same would apply for pretty much every film made before 1970. Seriously, who talks like the people in Casablanca?“—jdsm

I disagree on both counts. Respectfully, if you think there was no such thing as realism in cinema before 1970, then your experience is limited. Anyway, it’s not a question of the verisimilitude of the dialog; it’s that in my opinion the characters in Shawshank ultimately don’t have much human depth which causes the film to not have a payoff that validates its large dose of sentimentalism.

Let me put it another way: the criticism against Lars von Trier has been that his films are all about emotional manipulation of the audience without any true, underlying artistic integrity. In its own way, “Breaking the Waves” was “sentimental”; it was a sort of perverse melodrama. And the criticism is that is all that it is. I disagree (but not with complete conviction); but my point is that there is something similar going on with Shawshank. It’s emotionally manipulative, and it’s a well told story; but I can’t imagine having a seminar on it. I can’t imagine what is worth talking about. That’s the difference between “enjoyable” and “great”.

I agree somewhat with your point about “difficulty”. I don’t really believe that good art needs to be difficult—at least superficially, which is how much so-called “difficult” art is difficult. “A Midsummer Night’s Dream” is superficially very light and easy; but I think it is difficult underneath and I would argue that any great piece of art is difficult in some subterranean way. But the superficial experience itself shouldn’t be “difficult” unless that difficulty is intimately connected with the expression of its theme—something many artists attempt but do poorly.

Another way to try to get at this conflict that Kevin is describing and you are illustrating, is that to a large degree it is the aesthetics of cinema that is the fundamental disagreement. That is, I suspect that those critical of “Shawshank” expect more artistic depth and “heft” from films they think are very good; while perhaps you more strongly equate “good” with “enjoyable” and a high level of technical craft, all things that “Shawshank” has in spades.

“Shawshank” is problematic because, I believe, many people are simply biased against its sentimentality. Your complaint against them has merit, in my opinion. Conversely, I think its hard for many people that think highly of the film to understand how a film that is so affecting—and it is—could also be thought to be not very good.

“I’d like to leave the Shawshank debate alone but due to the currents of condecension I can’t…Shawshank is the most complete film I have seen that has a happy ending. I wonder how many of the “Shawshank’s naff” crowd would have been quite so critical if Andy Dufresne had been found hanging in his cell.”

I do wish people could argue without arguing that way. People can dislike a movie other people like without being “condescending.” And they ought to be able to dislike it without having suspect motives attributed to them. Shawshank is the most complete movie with a happy ending you’ve seen (you say, though I find even that hard to believe, I think you must have forgotten some, or else have a very odd definition of ‘complete’); fine. But it’s not the most complete movie with a happy ending everyone has seen, all right?

Happy ending? You want happy ending?

The Secret of Roan Inish, Lone Star, In the Name of the Father, Rear Window, Bringing Up Baby, Holiday, You’ve Got Mail, Big, Beetlejuice, The Miracle Worker, Norma Rae – just to name a very very few off the top of my head. There are masses of movies with happy endings! Including a lot of good ones, brilliant ones! There is just no need to look for horrible sinister elitist anti-The People reasons for not liking Shawshank. I for one do quite like it, but I can think of hundreds of movies I like better, and I don’t even see all that many movies.

I think Grave of the Fireflies is the English translation; Hotaru no haka is the transliteration.

It’s really a shame that this film gets little attention in the US. I think confining it to the “anime” genre is doing it a, er, grave injustice. Anyone who’s not familiar with it should at least read the Ebert review I link above. It’s a powerful film.

It’s too early to tell, but I think that Spirited Away will have tremendous longevity and will eventually enter the ranks of the great.

“Shawshank Redemption?

“When I was a kid, and knew no better, I used to like a regular article in Reader’s Digest called something like ‘My Most Memorable Character’. Shawshank Redemption is the movie version.“—Alan

In light of the preceding discussion, you’re really not being very nice. I think that the mere fact that someone is reading “Crooked Timber” would indicate that they’re very likely not knuckle-dragging imbeciles. Intelligent and thoughtful people disagree with you and have strong feelings and thoughts about it.

Still, a claim of greatness requires something more than a mere report of subjective satisfaction. In contrast, I’m reminded of the people that claimed that Blair Witch Project wasn’t scary. Clearly, it scared a lot of people so by definition it was scary. Yeah, one can argue that there was an implied “to me” in the heated claims of lack of scariness; but I’m a little skeptical since loudly and repeatedly proclaiming that it wasn’t scary “to me” seems pretty unnecessary. One’s report of one’s own reaction is well-nigh indisputable, isn’t it? What’s to argue? I really think to some degree such people are trying to dispute the legitimacy of other people’s experience—which is also pretty weird.

There is, I submit, some degree of that going on in this thread. There’s no denying that many, many people enormously enjoyed Shawshank. I don’t think it’s valid to argue that they “shouldn’t have”, even implicitly. On the other hand, I think claims of inherent “greatness” of the film need substantiation far beyond how much one liked it.

Truly great films are those we can all agree are great without resorting to interminable petty squabbling about whether they are in fact great. Thus, no great films exist.

I think Grave of the Fireflies is the English translation; Hotaru no haka is the transliteration.

It’s really a shame that this film gets little attention in the US. I think confining it to the “anime” genre is doing it a, er, grave injustice. Anyone who’s not familiar with it should at least read the Ebert review I link above. It’s a powerful film.

It’s too early to tell, but I think that Spirited Away will have tremendous longevity and will eventually enter the ranks of the great.

I think so too. That, and perhaps Princess Mononoke. Actually, I think most of the Studio Ghibli canon is pretty damn good.

As for the translation of Hotaru no haka – I think there are a number of different translations out there. Some “grave” others “graveyard”. My Studio Ghibli compilation lists it as Tombstone of the Fireflies.

Anime aside, I really like plot twisters like The Usual Suspects and the lesser-known The Name of the Rose (the adaptation of Umberto Eco’s novel of the same name, starring Sean Connery and a young Christian Slater).

Three Kings is underappreciated, my main man.