Kiss kiss boom

God all-mighty. I hope she goes and has a kid already. It’s not as if that’s so hard- people do it all the time w/o even trying. It’s kind of an unpleasent display really. (Not the wanting kids so much. People want all sorts of things. But the going on about it. That’s what’s unpleasent. Who’s keeping her from doing it?)

Yeah, I noticed that of course. It still just seems to fall in to the “life’s tough all over, isn’t it?” category.

Also the “You’re the man. You don’t have emotional needs” part.

Dan: That was, you know, a joke.

My brother, 53, recently announced that his fiancée, 44, is pregnant. The look on his eldest daughter’s face threatened frostbite. There are all sorts of arguments one could make against aging parents, and my niece made a couple of them, but, look, he likes kids (had 3 already, still has 3 dogs) is healthy (surfs, snowboards, does triathlons) and what is else if not to be overcome?

Decades ago my father’s brother was appalled to hear that my sister, pregnant by her second husband, had the fetus tested and knew its sex. He reminded me that his sister was born on her mother’s 40th birthday. He’s had a few grandkids since then, though, and raised no objections when I gave him the news about his prospective grandnephew.

My oldest nephew is also going to be getting his first son this summer. I can’t wait to tell that little guy that this other little guy is almost as much his uncle as his cousin.

The institution of marriage is to blame here. Very harmful in many respects. IMHO.

two sightings equals a trend!

God Dsquared. I really wish you’d not exposed me to that.

What’s behind this trend is a view of kids as consumer goods. I really can’t see what good can come of that.

As I get older, I’m becoming increasingly sympathetic to the “population bomb” folks in the 1970s. During that decade, world population was 4 billion. Now its 6 billion. At the start of the industrial revolution it was 1 billion. Is the carrying capacity of the Earth , allowing for the magic of technology, infinite? If it is, the optimists are right. If there is some limit, even if its some unimaginable number like 20 billion, it seems that we are collectively in a rush to hit it.

My two cents: if we wouldn’t want to blame those women that have a strong desire to have babies and are feeling the pressure of their biological clocks, would we also not want to blame those men that wish to avoid it for as long as possible, and to maximize their number of sexual experiences? (gross generalizations there, obviously).

Or maybe there is something qualitatively different between those two urges, and one can be justifiably disparaged or ridiculed. I can almost see an argument like that – as baby-making is probably thought to be more of a social good than sexual conquest. But that kinda calculus gets into complex and dangerous territory fast…

I’m mid 30’s, single in San Francisco (a city relatively full of unmarrieds). Among the singles my age and socioeconomic level, the game appears like this to me: women are holding out, trying to find the absolute ideal mate, while the men are holding out to prolong their singlehood, freedom, sexual variety, etc. And as we reach mid-30’s and later, the men seem to have a definite advantage.

It’s funny how when you take Megan out of context, she often seems like an aggressive biznitch. FUCK THEM indeed! Note to self: context is useful.

so you’re in favour of more teenage pregnancies?

people don’t like to be instrumentalized, that’s why men tend to find the overwhelming urge to have kids in a woman at the beginning of a relationship unappealing

Ridiculous explanation, as it doesn’t address the perception that it’s usually men who don’t want kids and usually women who do.

My hypothesis is that men find women who desire kids frightening because they recognize that having children means giving up a lot of autonomy. A lot of women feel the same way, but by and large women are less likely to really *be* autonomous than men are, what with being expected to be considerate of what men want all the damn time (e.g., how unseemly of Megan to be angry!). It used to be that giving up that autonomy was the mark of adulthood; nowadays, it’s not. Whether one is better than the other is debatable, but let’s at least not pretend that being angry at the solipsism of others is itself solipsistic.

Children aren’t all the same.

If you’re going to fantasize about having the perfect family, make sure you include bright, healthy, well-behaved kids in your dream.

It’s not at all weird, self-indulgent, or selfish to want to be able to find a partner who shares one’s interests. I agree that feeling long-term anger or resentment about not being able to do so isn’t great, but ranting occasionally about one’s frustration isn’t exactly a mortal sin.

bitchphd:”The “kids as consumer goods” attitude is reflected more by the guys (ahem, Matt) whose attitude is “hey, things are tough all over”—as if wanting children were equivalent to wanting, say, a big house with a koi pond.”

That wasn’t what he was saying at all, although he could have been a little more sympathetic to the human condition.

bitchphd:”Kids are pretty central to a lot of people’s humanity—and appropriately so.”

Yes, of course. But also, for example, for a lot of people, the giving and receiving of sexual pleasure is pretty central to their humanity. I assume you would be just as sympathetic to the plight of someone whose sexual needs are unfulfilled, as to the plight of someone who has not yet had the baby she wants, in the exact situation she wants to have it.

And of course, one must address the perception that it is usually women who don’t want sex, qua sex, and men who do; to address that analogously to your discussion, one should conjure up a vague explanation flattering to men and unflattering to women. (And discuss how trying it is for men, to have to constantly be considerate of women and their lack of a desire to have sex right now. And how wrong it would be, to consider it unseemly for a man to be angry about that.)

31: Wow. Why do you feel that someone should be *just* as sympathetic to the one as to the other? You don’t see any important distinction in these desires at all?

What other desires are indistinguishable to you from the desire to have a baby?

I suppose it depends on what you mean by inappropriate. It’s certainly pretty public. There’s nothing wrong about it, I guess, and one obvious difference from the annalogy I used is that it doesn’t disturb people like talking loudly in a cafe would. But it is a bit odd to announce your personal problems to the world, especially if you are then annoyed that people go on and discuss them (as in comment 8).

And if you can’t find such a person it’s a good reason to feel sad or frustrated.

In fact, it’s not a very good reason to feel sad or frustrated. Just like the failure to find a suitcase full of cash is not a good reason to feel frustrated. Some commonly accepted expectations are totally unrealistic, and that’s the cause of frustration.

31: Charming. If only those bitches would put out.

38: Like a previous poster has said, the analogy is pretty clear here, and you can only reject it by making the personal choice that baby-making is an acceptable unrequited desire and sex is not.

38: Boring. You’re feigning an inability to understand an analogy, and taking the most obvious of shots.

I hope Megan has the babies she wants, in the context of the loving relationship she wants, even if her primary goal is the babies and not the relationship: I understand that she wants both. It would be awfully easy to pretend she’s only looking for a disposable sperm donor, but I know she’s not.

39: Please, enlighten the boors. Say something.

The slip from central purpose and outcome toward elective consumer choice that children have become is happening without any real discussion, outside the hysterical shrieking of religious/anti-religious warfare.

Yep. Though apparently this thread is not the place to have such a real discussion.

It’s a little bit bizarre, I think, that the desire to reproduce has become the “lifestyle option” that needs to be explained, justified, rationalized. Until the day before yesterday or so, this desire was seen as perfectly natural … because (remember Biology 101?) reproducing is just what critters do, unless or until their extinction (hey lads: it’s how you stay in the game, you know?). It’s as though we have very recently decided to sever all ties between past, present and future, in the service of “choice” or “pleasure” or some such something that, in the long run, probably doesn’t have much staying power.

Well, I guess that I suppose it’s _your_ problem, not a problem that there’s anything for anyone else to worry about or care about except insofar as they care about you personally. It’s not some big problem. There’s no injustice or anything as far as I can see. “Person doesn’t have the life she wants through no fault of anyone else’s” just doesn’t seem like something that people ought to get very upset about.

Megan: “I am not the only person who wants to have children and is afraid that it won’t happen before the opportunity is lost.”

Well then go and have children. As Keith mentions you have a number of options for having them. It appears that your problem is not having children, but having them within a certain type of desired relationship. If you can’t arrive at that relationship then that’s unfortunate, but many people want things out of a relationship which can’t be had or at least is not always immediately obvious.

There are, needless to say, many men who want children (I knew I wanted children; for instance, and I now have four).

Part of the problem is that wanting any of the ‘traditional feminine goals’ has become problematic to some feminists. There was a recent Guardian article by Lionel Shriver on how she was criticised for having a female character whose greatest ambition was a happy marriage. I think as a reaction against centuries of being told that marriage and children are *all* that should matter to women, there is still a tendency to denigrate the desire to have them.

But there’s also a mismatch here about the strength of an individual’s feelings and social expectations. If anybody has such strong feelings about events in their life that many people cannot comprehend them, then that is bound to be difficult for the individual concerned. (As an analogy, and it is only an analogy, I have had periods of depression, despite the fact that objectively my problems were not as great as many other people’s. Telling me that I should not have been depressed in my situation only made the problem worse).

What my analogy does suggest is that Megan (unfortunately) shouldn’t expect to get sympathy if she talks to/blogs to the general public. It might be worth her getting some counselling about how she deals with a desire that is both extremely important to her and also possibly unobtainable.

Feminism is not the problem, but obviously feminism, individualism and secularism are in contradiction with the traditional concept of marriage/family. Go Scandinavia.

P.S. In fact, I would make a large bet that Megan herself has rejected possible relationships with trustworthy, decent, kind men who shared her desire for children because she prioritized her own desire for romantic love over her desire for kids. Or perhaps because of where she was in her education cycle. No reasonably attractive person reaches their mid-30s without having had opportunities for child-bearing.

Naturally, men do the same thing, the issue is (as abb1 states in 52) the fundamental conflict between individualist, secularist ideologies based on investing in an idealized “self” and the traditional idea of marriage and family. Men are obviously at least as individualist as women, but they do not trumpet it as a social revolution a la feminism.

Though it pains me a bit to say it I do have to say that I largely agree w/ abb1 here, even with the time when he directly disagreed with what I said.

If we do feel, as some people here seem to, that people who wanted to have kids and couldn’t are the victims of an injustice then isn’t this a reason against tax breaks for families? Doesn’t it seem to follow, on the contrary, that there ought to be tax breaks for childless people to compensate them for the injustice they have suffered?

I actually think that the Natasha Bedingfield song is a quite interesting pop-cultural development. I don’t agree that the taboo about women who want children has anything to do with objectification – it’s just the more or less rational fear of any long-term and expensive irreversible decision. Oh tee oh aitch, giving women a hard time for it is a pretty new cultural phenomenon, I think it has a lot to do with the tendency of men to infantilise themselves over the last twenty years (which in turn is clearly part of the whole “laddish” backlash against feminism) and it strikes me as interesting that someone decided it might be time to push back a little. Bedingfield is, on the other hand, a notorious fucking god-botherer, so this might not be such a trend after all.

Megan:”Dude, if I were looking for a disposable sperm donor, I could buy one. Or negotiate one. That would be something I could arrange.”

Yes, that’s why I said: “It would be awfully easy to pretend she’s only looking for a disposable sperm donor, but I know she’s not.”

I would consider it a personal *kindness*, a gesture of good faith, if you would respond to what I actually said, and not something else. (In this case, virtually the opposite.) I wish we could all treat each other in this minimally kind way, but it ain’t gonna happen (Hi bitchphd!).

Megan: “And what is with the gleeful gloating about “but when I was really horny, I never got enough, so hah hah see how it feels now?””

Not gloating, not gleeful, not directed at you. Again: the desire to have kids is a very understandable human need. It is understandable even when the need is not immediately associated with any specific partner. We all get this. Similarly, the desire for sexual intimacy is a very understandable human need. It is understandable even when the need is not immediately associated with any specific partner. In some feminist wave, this was not understood.

As to your good works, bless you, but I have no idea how you think it could be so easy. One part of your advice is basically, “don’t be desperate”, which is certainly good advice, whatever need you’re trying to fill.

Well, I guess that I suppose it’s your problem, not a problem that there’s anything for anyone else to worry about or care about except insofar as they care about you personally. It’s not some big problem. There’s no injustice or anything as far as I can see. “Person doesn’t have the life she wants through no fault of anyone else’s” just doesn’t seem like something that people ought to get very upset about.

Posted by Matt · April 29th, 2007 at 3:18 am

Incorrect, and surprising to see this opinion aired on an academic blog. It’s increasingly well known that this is a demographic trend in the western world, largely caused by the inability of employers and governments to sort out the work-and-family dilemma, combined with the tendency to do everything later – and the cost to women of potentially losing everything if they interrupt their working lives to have a baby; combined with the “laddish” male culture of commiting, again, as late as possible.

It’s not just anecdotal.

Helen, since I’m happily married for several years I doubt I’m part of, or heavily influenced by, the ‘laddish’ culture. (In fact I find that rather disgusting.) I’m not at all worried by demographic trends. There are other ways to deal with them- immigration for one. It’s not as if there is a shortage of young people in the world, just a mis-distribution. The work-family dilema is a real problem, but it would be a problem even if Megan were married and with a family. Given this, I really don’t see that there is any injustice in this case. As abb1 says, the Nords seem to do a pretty good job of it.

Mega: “Right. I was repeating your statement…”

Really? Ah, ok, sorry.

The desire for sex and the desire to have children are pretty analogous, in my mind, for the purposes of our discussion – they’re both fairly basic human drives the frustration of which is apparently very painful for a significant minority of people, and thus worthy of sympathy, and they’re also things we can’t rightfully demand from other people.

Ascribing one to one sex and one to the other is inaccurate, but we can abstract away from that and not lose much of anything meaningful.

(A hypothesis: if we assume that there is some gender difference in aggregate due to a combination of socialization and biology, and model the dating/marriage scene as a hedonic market with high transaction costs, then the sexes’ differences in preferences will be significantly higher among middle-aged singles than among middle-aged marrieds, and they’ll also be more frustrated.

This might explain a bunch of the disparities in anecdotal evidence.

It’s also probably distorted by religiosity levels – which are self-seeking in the aforementioned dating market; and encourage early marriage and natalism and traditional gender roles, all of which are important in the model – and the strong anecdotal evidence that couples grow more alike the more time they spend together.)

My My What a generation… unsure whether to look for Mommy to suckle and nurture you or the BFF that you can have sex with… Its a good thing you don’t breed. There are enough spoiled noisy mewling boy-men out there on their mountain bikes and skateboards as it is.

The mentality exhibited shows no self confidence, no physical strength and assuredness, no manly virtue of protecting, defending or providing. All I read is take-take-take… Selfish grabbing

When you boys are ready to assume your place in the world of men… you will be ashamed of what you have written here. Your children will be ashamed and wonder WHO-T-F you really are…

Maybe we should blame the women for rewarding such childish behavior? That would follow the Blame-The-Women meme…

I am somewhat amazed by the older guys (let’s say 35+) who think they don’t have to worry about biological clocks because they can always date younger women (as in less than 30). The solipsism is for to laugh! Alas, they must be deluded that they inhabit an alternate universe from the one which affects the rest of society.

Hello! If the girls weren’t in to you when you were younger and hotter, what makes you think your softer belly and balder pate has made you a great catch to the next class of college grads? If you think having a little more money will help then I have news for you, my pumpkins. Unless it’s the kind of mega-money that has bimbos leaving you love messages day and night (in which case how DO you find time lounge around so much on the internets, naughty boy?) don’t expect that to offer you an edge! No, no, no – more money is the price of entry – what you will HAVE to have in order to still compete poorly against the looks, energy, and fitness of the younger guys. The “secret” is out: aging isn’t just for women anymore. After all, when is the last time you saw attractive young women at the peak of their game helplessly drawn to the sad old guy hanging out late at the club?

Seriously, people want to date and mate people their own age. You may be sure that you’ve discovered the magic formula “I’ll just marry someone younger!” But, by Jove, it turns out that idea has been tried before. And if it were a formula for success then we would expect to see many such pairings in the general population. But, we don’t. Instead, the vast majority of couples are very close in age.

Perhaps it is more related to resource acquisition than fertility, but it turns out that girls prefer youth and energy in their mates, too.

Sorry boys, but what happens when you prolong your adolescence indefinitely, is that when you finally get around to popping the question? You’re the one whose going to be shelling out mega-bucks for your wife’s fertility treatments.

P.S. In fact, I would make a large bet that Megan herself has rejected possible relationships with trustworthy, decent, kind men who shared her desire for children because she prioritized her own desire for romantic love over her desire for kids. Or perhaps because of where she was in her education cycle. No reasonably attractive person reaches their mid-30s without having had opportunities for child-bearing.

This is my response, too. I know so many single people, men and women, who claim to want partners and children badly, yet make very little effort to date from reasons ranging from fear of rejection to not wanting to miss their favorite TV shows!

Another point to keep in mind about men and aging (at least until its cured around 2030 or so) is that sex drive, at least in men, tends to decline with age.

This means that, as we get older, being able to screw pretty young things becomes less important in the larger scheme of things. Other activities like outdoor sports, travel, and visiting friends, tend to become more attractive. This is because, if you excercise and take care of yourself, you can maintain much of your strength and fitness well into old age, even as your physical attractiveness declines. Hense, activities not requiring physical attractiveness become more appealling as we get older.

One of the problems that women around 35 years old or so will have in trying to find a suitable mate is that many of the men the same age are simply not interested in having kids. It may be the case of “been there, done that” or simply that with the waning sex drive, such men are more interested in other activities than “scoring” or having kids. This is one problem that our friend Megan is likely to encounter.

Fred Reed as much to say about this from the perspective of an expatriate. Having lived as an expat for 10 years, I relate to much of what Fred has to say.

Megan is definitely to be commended for being up front and honest in expressing her desire for having kids early on in the dating process. Such candidness saves both her as well as her prospective date time and money and is, therefor, to be respected.