Twigs and branches

by John Quiggin on October 20, 2021

Another open thread, where you can comment on any topic. Moderation and standard rules still apply. Lengthy side discussions on other posts will be diverted here. Enjoy!

{ 43 comments }

1

Tm 10.20.21 at 1:15 pm

There is a request for clarification from an earlier thread still open (https://crookedtimber.org/2021/10/06/hierarchy-of-the-grift/#comment-813923).

“I don’t know if the fact that German Press Council doesn’t monitor RT (if that is indeed a fact) means that German Press Council can’t reprimand RT while responding to a reader’s complaint, for example.”

For anybody interested in this issue: The German Press Council is an industry self-control watchdog. Similar institutions exist in some other countries (but not obviously in the US). They have no material sanctioning power and have nothing to do with enforcement of the laws. The German Press Council doesn’t “monitor” anybody, that is a misleading choice of words, they investigate complaints from the public. Their jurisdiction is over domestic print papers and their online channels. Other online media outlets, like crookedtimber.org or CNN.com, are not a priori in their jurisdiction unless they choose so themselves. So if I wanted to file a complaint against crookedtimber for journalistic misconduct, the German Press Council wouldn’t and couldn’t investigate it. In turn, the makers of crookedtimber could truthfully state that they have never been reprimanded by the German Press Council.

The original German language source for the RT story is here: https://www.tagesschau.de/faktenfinder/presserat-ruegen-rt-101.html

2

Gorgonzola Petrovna 10.20.21 at 8:09 pm

@1
Why does your new link, just like dw.com before, tell me what RT said without linking to the actual RT statement? Do you find it curious? I do.
I plug the alleged RT quote into google search, but all it gives me is clones of your tagesschau.de piece. No RT-authored page. Was it a translation? Then, where’s the original?

“…the German Press Council wouldn’t and couldn’t investigate it”

What I want to hear from Sascha Borowski is that German Press Council has never ever criticized any publication that hasn’t signed the pledge. Otherwise, all these “monitor” and “investigate”sound like a non-denial denial.

And why is it that the first sentence of you link “Auf eine SWR-Anfrage dazu teilte RT DE mit, man betreibe “keinen Kampagnenjournalismus, sondern bleibt auf dem Boden der Tatsachen und präsentiert ein großes Spektrum an Sichtweisen” links to something that, unless I’m mistaken, adds nothing whatsoever RT-related to your article? Same allegations, the same quote, and a link back. Is this good journalismus?

3

MPAVictoria 10.21.21 at 2:14 pm

Happy Fall everyone!

So some of you may recall that I was asking about espresso machines awhile back. Well after much window shopping and research I decided that getting a full home espresso setup was just out of my budget at the moment so I switched gears entirely to trying to get the best drip coffee setup I could. I ended up with a Technivorm Moccamaster and a old Breville Burr grinder I was able to pick up used from someone in my neighborhood.

So far I am pretty happy with the setup. The Moccamaster makes a very good cup of drip coffee and is easy to operate (basically 2 switches – one to turn it on and one to move between making a half pot or a full pot). An added benefit is that I think it looks pretty good on my kitchen counter and doesn’t take up too much of my limited counterspace. The plan is to upgrade the grinder to something newer and more attractive eventually but really I am in no rush to do that. A thank you to everyone who responded to my questions in the previous thread!

4

John Quiggin 10.21.21 at 7:05 pm

Happy Fall to you too MPAVictoria. Though in my current location (North Queensland) there are no deciduous trees and we are now finishing the Dry season and entering the Build-up (hot and sticky, waiting for the Wet).

5

Trader Joe 10.21.21 at 8:15 pm

MPAVictoria
Congratulations on your purchase, may your present buzz of excitement continue to translate into a perpetual (but manageable) caffeine buzz over the long-term.

I’m not that familiar that brand but a quick search and I’m inclined to agree – it has an attractive look to it that’s both utilitarian and vaguely stylish.

Has anyone else noticed the sizeable increase in coffee prices? I recently did some restocking and found 20-30% price increases in higher end beans and 10-20% increases in more mid-range. I try to view buying decent coffee as a luxury I’m willing to pay for (and I did this time) but sticker shock definitely drives substitution effects as the economists like to say.

6

Cranky Observer 10.22.21 at 12:33 am

” Technivorm Moccamaster”

That’s a great coffee maker – I recommend it to everyone who asks. It is expensive as a first purchase but less expensive than replacing a burned-out post-2000-design department store coffee maker every 2-3 years.

7

andrew_m 10.22.21 at 6:30 am

@Trader Joe: you just knew it had to be

8

Tm 10.22.21 at 7:46 am

2: You seem to not understand and probably overestimate the role of the Press Council.
The RT quote is from a response to a direct journalist question, not from the RT web site. No need to suspect conspiracies 😉

9

NomadUK 10.22.21 at 1:44 pm

It is expensive as a first purchase but less expensive than replacing a burned-out post-2000-design department store coffee maker

My Krupps grinder has been going for nigh on 30 years and I’ve replaced the carafe in my Bodum cafetière once in 17 years, so I think I’m ahead of the game.

10

MPAVictoria 10.22.21 at 3:45 pm

John Quiggin
“Happy Fall to you too MPAVictoria. Though in my current location (North Queensland) there are no deciduous trees and we are now finishing the Dry season and entering the Build-up (hot and sticky, waiting for the Wet).”

Happy Build-up Season John! One day I want to visit Australia and experience your climate. :-)

Trader Joe
“Has anyone else noticed the sizeable increase in coffee prices? I recently did some restocking and found 20-30% price increases in higher end beans and 10-20% increases in more mid-range. I try to view buying decent coffee as a luxury I’m willing to pay for (and I did this time) but sticker shock definitely drives substitution effects as the economists like to say.”

Thanks Trader! I have noticed the same thing here in Canada. The price of locally roasted beans have jumped from about $20-22 for 340 grams to $25-30 for 340 grams. Still worth it imo.

Cranky Observer
“That’s a great coffee maker – I recommend it to everyone who asks. It is expensive as a first purchase but less expensive than replacing a burned-out post-2000-design department store coffee maker every 2-3 years.”

Thanks Cranky! One of the things that made me pull the trigger on what is a pretty pricey coffeemaker were all the reviews from owners who have been using one for literal decades without any major issues.

11

SusanC 10.22.21 at 5:28 pm

To continue a thought from another thread where we mentioned Glen Greenwald…

A large portion of the British Left has been against Stalinists for a long time. The 1956 invasion of Hungary is traditionally seen as a turning point, even though this may involve a certain amount of after the fact revisionism (such as people belatedly declaring that really always were against Soviet Communism).

You could probably find a few self-identified Stalinists if you tried hard. But the followers of Tony Blair and Kier Starmer probably don’t think of themselves as Stalinists … even though their opponents (both to the left and the right) probably are insinuating something along those lines.

e.g. “mass murdering war criminal” … oops, that was Blair, not Stalin
e.g. “purges of his political opponents” … oops, that was Starmer, not Stalin. Though the choice of words “purged” clearly carries something of an implication.

To be fair, Leon Trotsky was dealt with rather more harshly than Jeremy Corbyn.

So the shorter Glenn Greenwald might be that he finds the current leftist leadership a bit too Stalinist for his taste.

12

nastywoman 10.23.21 at 6:11 am

From Michelle Goldberg –
(important enough to quote in – nearly – whole length)

….“If Europe fails on the question of refugees, then it won’t be the Europe we wished for,” Merkel said, calling on the other members of the European Union to take in more people as well. “I don’t want to get into a competition in Europe of who can treat these people the worst.” For the usually stolid and cautious chancellor, it was a great political leap, a sudden act of moral heroism that would define her legacy.

‘Many observers predicted disaster. According to Marton, Henry Kissinger, ever callous, told Merkel, “To shelter one refugee is a humanitarian act, but to allow one million strangers in is to endanger German civilization.” Marton quotes my colleague Ross Douthat writing that anyone who believes that Germany can “peacefully absorb a migration of that size and scale of cultural difference” is a “fool.” She describes former Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson’s fear that the refugees would be Merkel’s “political undoing.”

For a while, it seemed like some of this pessimism was warranted. Douthat’s column was inspired by a hideous outburst of violence in Cologne on New Year’s Eve, in which a mob of largely Middle Eastern and North African men sexually assaulted scores of women. The refugee influx fueled the rise of the far-right Alternative for Germany party, known as the AfD, which in 2017 won 94 seats to become the largest opposition party in Parliament. Some blamed Merkel’s policy for spooking Brits into supporting Brexit. As a presidential candidate, Donald Trump seized on it. Though Merkel retained the chancellorship after the 2017 elections, her party, the Christian Democratic Union, lost 65 seats.

But six years later, the catastrophes predicted by Merkel’s critics haven’t come to pass.

In the recent German election, refugees were barely an issue, and the AfD lost ground. “The sense is that there has been comparatively little Islamic extremism or extremist crime resulting from this immigration, and that on the whole, the largest number of these immigrants have been successfully integrated into the German work force and into German society overall,” said Constanze Stelzenmüller, an expert on Germany and trans-Atlantic relations at the Brookings Institution.

“With the passage of time,” Marton told me, Merkel “turned out to have chosen the absolutely right course for not only Germany but for the world.”

The refugee policy was what inspired Marton, a former ABC News bureau chief in Germany and the author of nine previous books, to write about Merkel in the first place. Marton is herself the daughter of refugees from Hungary, journalists who had been imprisoned by the Communist regime, and the granddaughter of victims of Auschwitz. (She’s also the widow of the famed diplomat Richard Holbrooke, whom she began dating when he was Bill Clinton’s ambassador to Germany.) Watching Merkel in the summer of 2015, said Marton, “I just thought wow, who is she, and how is she getting away with this?”

Part of the reason that Germans accepted — and in many cases celebrated — Merkel’s decision lies in their country’s unique relationship to its national history. Germany has made reckoning with the Holocaust central to its identity, and many citizens grabbed eagerly at this chance for redemption.

“When their trains pulled into the gleaming Munich station, exhausted men, women and children were greeted by a sea of signs that read, ‘Welcome to Germany,’ held aloft by cheering citizens lining the platforms,” wrote Marton. Volunteers converted schools and stores into dormitories. “Germans were more than happy — in fact, thrilled — to see themselves in the role of humanitarian saviors,” said Stelzenmüller.

But the refugees had more to offer Germany than a burnished self-image. In an aging country with a low birthrate, they were a useful addition to the work force. The economy, Stelzenmüller said, “was looking for labor before the pandemic, and so there was a real demand and presumably a willingness from the labor market and companies to help people. And of course we have a long experience, a decades-long practice, of on-the-job training that is seen as a model by other European countries and in fact by America.”

Not all the lessons of Germany’s refugee experience will be welcomed by progressives. Merkel, after all, headed a center-right party, and her government took a conservative approach to assimilation. “Refugees have a responsibility to adapt to German ways,” Marton quotes Merkel saying at a meeting of her party in 2015. “Multiculturalism is a sham.”

The newcomers were required to learn German and they were settled throughout the country to avoid ghettoization. Merkel, wrote Marton, “was determined to avoid the dense concentration of immigrants that ring cities in France and Great Britain.”

And in the end, Merkel didn’t leave the border open, eventually negotiating a controversial deal with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey to take in asylum seekers and prevent them from continuing on to Europe. She didn’t remain in power for 16 years by letting emotion outpace her sense of realpolitik.

All the same, in absorbing a million desperate people at a time when others were putting up razor wire, Germany did something great, something the rest of the world could learn from as wars and ecological calamity send many millions more trudging across the globe in search of sanctuary.

“We now have a case study, an example, of how it can work, and I’m hoping the world will make use of Merkel’s example,” said Marton. The chancellor’s refrain in 2015 was, “We can do this.” If only the rest of us could too’.

13

J-D 10.23.21 at 6:14 am

Happy Build-up Season John! One day I want to visit Australia and experience your climate. :-)

Climates, in the plural. The climate of my present location (Sydney) is not like that of north Queensland. One might as well speak of the North American climate as if there were no difference between Yukon and Yucatan.

14

J-D 10.23.21 at 6:37 am

A large portion of the British Left has been against Stalinists for a long time. The 1956 invasion of Hungary is traditionally seen as a turning point, even though this may involve a certain amount of after the fact revisionism (such as people belatedly declaring that really always were against Soviet Communism).

The Socialist Party of Great Britain is only a very small portion of the British Left, but it has been against Stalinists essentially as long as there have been Stalinists.

You could probably find a few self-identified Stalinists if you tried hard.

I did not have to try hard to find out about the New Communist Party of Britain.

“purges of his political opponents” … oops, that was Starmer, not Stalin.

Why can’t it be Boris Johnson?

Or Donald Trump?

To be fair, Leon Trotsky was dealt with rather more harshly than Jeremy Corbyn.

Can I take it that you use ‘rather’ to mean ‘a very great deal’?

The important question about how Jeremy has been treated is not whether it is harsh but whether it is fair.

So the shorter Glenn Greenwald might be that he finds the current leftist leadership a bit too Stalinist for his taste.

I don’t know of any reason to attach any importance to Glenn’s tastes.

15

SusanC 10.24.21 at 12:11 pm

I do find Glenn Greenwald interesting, in that he manages to be right on the edge of being a conspiracy theorist without actually talking about space lizards (cf. David Icke) or Jewish Space Lasers (cf. Marjorie Taylor Greene).

He totally needs a pinboard on his office wall with photographs connected by pieces of red string,

16

J-D 10.24.21 at 10:09 pm

I do find Glenn Greenwald interesting, in that he manages to be right on the edge of being a conspiracy theorist without actually talking about space lizards (cf. David Icke) or Jewish Space Lasers (cf. Marjorie Taylor Greene).

I haven’t read enough by or about him to comment, but having now located the earlier discussion you cited, my reaction is that it makes no sense for anybody who genuinely objects to authoritarianism to be more concerned about authoritarianism on the left than about authoritarianism on the right. Authoritarianism is a sporadic tendency on the left, a systemic tendency on the right.

17

Tm 10.25.21 at 9:25 am

J-D: “I don’t know of any reason to attach any importance to Glenn’s tastes.”

Seconded. I really can’t follow you SusanC. GG would probably be more “interesting” if he were talking about space lizards.

18

Kiwanda 10.25.21 at 4:17 pm

So it’s agreed: Glenn Greenwald is History’s Greatest Monster. Who else is worthy of a purifying, unifying round of righteous contempt? Jonathan Franzen? Allison Roman? Nile Rodgers?

19

steven t johnson 10.25.21 at 6:26 pm

It has always seemed perfectly obvious to me that Snowden chose Greenwald because Greenwald was not a leftist. I think most of the enmity to Greenwald is from people who cannot forgive him for Snowden. Being down on lower class people with bad manners is one thing, but undermining the country is too much. Compare to the glee with which Assange is attacked, by a lot of the same people. Being gay and Jewish probably plays a part too but who is competent to quantify these things?

The people who think Greenwald was ever part of the left, or betrayed it, or expect him to associate with leftists I think misperceive him, as they are looking through the Overton window. It should be the Overton blinkers.

Greenwald hate could be a little more sinister. Greenwald has been a figure in Brazilian politics, selectively leaking (as with Snowden,) information that undercuts the judicial maneuvers against Lula/Rousseff with the Lava Jato scandal. Most social liberals are quite conservative on foreign policy, as witness the universal derision for Biden after Afghanistan. Thus, Greenwald making problems for US friend Bolsonaro is yet another unforgivable offense. I am reluctant to harp on and on about Greenwald precisely because it’s like giving aid and comfort to the likes of Bolsonaro.

In a tiny way, it’s like tearing down the statue of Jefferson is also teaming up with John C. Calhoun, who also thought the phrase “all men are created equal…” was stupid.

20

nastywoman 10.25.21 at 7:29 pm

@
‘So it’s agreed: Glenn Greenwald is History’s Greatest Monster’.

Nah – as who would agree with such a cartoonish judgement –
(beside a few Cartoon Characters) – BUT Glenn is the perfect example of ‘a once pretty sane dude’ – who completely lost IT –
(about ‘who and what he was’)
and now – there is just ‘a bunch of silly tweets’ –
left…

21

hix 10.25.21 at 7:48 pm

Refuges were forced to learn German seems a bit of a stretch. More you should take a course, attending class not required. Then take a test and if you fail do the a1 class again please or don´t. Frankly, nothing compared to what welfare receipants in general are required to do, including naturally all refuges with that status. It seems to me the forced part is limited to employers requireing the sheet of paper, the b1 one at least- my hunch is also if that is not really necessary for the job, or if someone just failed the grammar part and understands everything just fine.

22

Tm 10.25.21 at 7:49 pm

JQ: „Greenwald is sui generis, but I wouldn’t see any benefit in engaging with him.“
J-D: “I don’t know of any reason to attach any importance to Glenn’s tastes.”
Kiwanda: „ So it’s agreed: Glenn Greenwald is History’s Greatest Monster.“

Why do right wingers and their apologists always have to be so over the top?

This brings me to two news items that surprised me today. Turkey’s authoritarian ruler was criticized by foreign governments for imprisoning his political opponents – nothing new there – and he likened this criticism to invading tanks. Poland‘s prime minister, not to be outdone, accused the EU of starting World War III – I kid you not – because they insist on Poland abiding by the rules they agreed on when they joined the Union.

I wonder: do these sound like strong leaders?

23

Tm 10.25.21 at 9:34 pm

Ok maybe I have been unfair. Let me correct myself:
The belief that the liberals are the Stalinists engaging in purges (*) and the fascists are the defenders of liberty is no less “interesting” than space lizards, by some definition of “interesting”.

(*) or alternatively Maoist cultural revolutionaries, as Anne Applebaum suggested.

24

nastywoman 10.26.21 at 2:20 am

@20
The people who think Greenwald was ever part of the left, or betrayed it, or expect him to associate with leftists I think misperceive him, as they are looking through the Overton window’.

Well – when I got to know Glenn Greenwald he was a pretty cool fighter against Crazy Right-Wing Reactionaries and –
THEN –
he even became unable to differentiate between Right-Wing Crazy Reactionary and everybody else. And as you mentioned Bolsonaro – How confused do you have to be –
to be able to identify Bolsonaro as the stereotypical ‘Crazy Right-Wing Racist Science Denier’ BUT at the same time to defend is much HUUUGER Idol and Role Model ‘trump’.
(the worlds new word for: ‘Utmost Evil Stupid’)

BE-cause ‘Trump’ is ‘American’ and it always was Glenn’s Dream to burn the whole (American) Place down?
And NOW as Trump didn’t succeed doing it for Glenn and his cult of silly Nihillists he tweets day and night about how mad he is?

And about Snowdon –
Snowden approached Glenn when Glenn STILL was ‘the good ole Glenn’ but – like ME and
Noam Chomsky probably asks himself too:

What the fudge happened to Glenn?

25

J-D 10.26.21 at 7:19 am

JQ: „Greenwald is sui generis, but I wouldn’t see any benefit in engaging with him.“
J-D: “I don’t know of any reason to attach any importance to Glenn’s tastes.”
Kiwanda: „ So it’s agreed: Glenn Greenwald is History’s Greatest Monster.“

Why do right wingers and their apologists always have to be so over the top?

If this is intended as a serious question, there are some responses I could make, but I’m not sure that it is.

It does seem worth mentioning that I wasn’t indirectly expressing a negative opinion (even a mild one) about Glenn. I only meant what I wrote, that I don’t know of any affirmative reasons to value his judgements positively. I know little about him and have read little of what he has written. If I were to mention somebody you had never even heard of and tell you that she didn’t like something, I would expect your response to be something like ‘So what? Why should I care what she thinks?’

Ok maybe I have been unfair. Let me correct myself:
The belief that the liberals are the Stalinists engaging in purges (*) and the fascists are the defenders of liberty is no less “interesting” than space lizards, by some definition of “interesting”.

The belief is not in itself interesting, but the question of why people believe it, or say that they do, is interesting.

26

tm 10.26.21 at 8:08 am

stj is also sui generis. American liberals hate Greenwald because they so love Trump’s brother in spirit Bolsonaro? Can you tell us something more plausible, perhaps involving space lizards?

Bolsonaro, expecting to lose next year’s election, is following Trump’s example, attacking the democratic process in his country, undermining the integrity of elections, and preparing for a potential coup. He met with Trump advisor Jason Miller.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/07/politics/jason-miller-brazil/index.html
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/biden-envoy-told-brazils-bolsonaro-important-not-undermine-elections-source-2021-08-08/

27

steven t johnson 10.26.21 at 12:59 pm

tm@28 turns my “I think most of the enmity to Greenwald is from people who cannot forgive him for Snowden..” into “American liberals hate Greenwald because they so love Trump’s brother in spirit Bolsonaro?” Adding a question mark doesn’t help.

I also wrote, in context with the “could be more sinister,” that ” Most social liberals are quite conservative on foreign policy, as witness the universal derision for Biden after Afghanistan.” This seems to me to be as well-founded an empirical observation as you can hope for. The polls on Biden show the concerted effects of universal media (which includes academic contributions as well) on his standing. Nobody else commenting cares that Greenwald has attacked Bolsonaro, fairly effectively by the way, and believes that this is a good thing for which Greenwald deserves credit. Case closed.

28

Sashas 10.26.21 at 5:31 pm

Bob @19: I’m clearly missing some context, but can we please never call it “the transgender question”? That phrasing sounds to me like “the Jewish question”, with all of the baggage that entails. The main difference between the two phrases, and the reason I’m making this request, is that the latter phrase was used a lot prior to an attempt to commit genocide against Jews. I feel there is broad agreement now that this attempt was Bad and that it shouldn’t happen again. I wish I could be confident about the former, but I don’t think such broad agreement exists. One thing we can do as responsible anti-genocide people is to try to shut down dog whistles (e.g. “the [x] question”) so that they can’t be so easily used again.

29

KT2 10.26.21 at 9:00 pm

I can see Glenn G with a big ball of red string.

Scott Alexander yesterday…
“He [Adrian Hon] claims to have found a secret resonance – one between QAnon and alternate reality games (for best effect, imagine him having a conspiracy corkboard and pinning red string between pins marked QANON and ARGS). Then he contributes it to a shared community of knowledge-seekers.”… 
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/epistemic-minor-leagues

“Roger: Look, there’s coded messages everywhere! In the New York Times, on the Internet, even in Catcher in the Rye. 

“Steve: Well, you did use an awful lot of string…

— American Dad!, “Bush Comes to Dinner”
https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/untitled_8_3.png

30

J-D 10.26.21 at 10:07 pm

… American liberals hate Greenwald …

For the avoidance of doubt, I’d like to put it on the record that I don’t hate him and that I’m not an American liberal.

31

SusanC 10.26.21 at 11:15 pm

If I recall correctly, “liberal” doesn’t quite mean the same thing on the two sides of the Atlantic.

Which might possibly explain the following perplexing thought:

“Glen Greenwald is a liberal, not a leftist” might make some sense as a rough categorisation when said by a British person. But he really hates the Democrats, who I think would tend to be called liberals in the US.

Typical issues might include:
State control/censorship of communication media
Wide scale surveillance of the public by government spy agencies
Murderous foreign wars

32

AWOL 10.27.21 at 1:18 am

The people who think Greenwald was ever part of the left, or betrayed it, or expect him to associate with leftists I think misperceive him, as they are looking through the Overton window. It should be the Overton blinkers.

Steven—

People have a right to be confused.

Below is just a partial list of his appearances on the far left anti-Democratic Party–slopfest “Democracy Now!”—stolen by Goodman and Cagan from Pacifica. He still makes appearances on that heap, even after becoming Tucker Carlson’s go-to anti-leftist phreak.

Greenwald was also a frequent columnist from the left on “Salon” before and during Joan Walsh’s reign.

His least-confusing career move was producing “Hairy Naked Men” porn.

https://www.democracynow.org/appearances/glenn_greenwald.Democracy

33

nastywoman 10.27.21 at 3:12 am

@
‘Nobody else commenting cares that Greenwald has attacked Bolsonaro, fairly effectively by the way, and believes that this is a good thing for which Greenwald deserves credit’.

But I care(d) that he attacks Bolsonaro for being a Right-Wing Reactionary – BUT he doesn’t attack him for being a Stupid Science denier and Anti-Vaxxer – and worst – Glenn has become so confused that he tweets silly stuff about Bolsonaro being ‘worst’ than ‘Trump’ and listen what ‘Trump’ has to say about that:

https://youtu.be/OLI7mb7LMLA

So case NOT
closed –
AT ALL!

34

Tm 10.27.21 at 6:45 am

stj 29, I’m not turning anything around. You wrote the following, referring to what you call “social liberals”: “Thus, Greenwald making problems for US friend Bolsonaro is yet another unforgivable offense.”

This claim is absolutely bonkers. I’ll also take issue with your “witness the universal derision for Biden after Afghanistan”. Nope, no “universal derision”. Most liberals have supported Biden’s withdrawal decision and most Republicans/rightwingers have attacked it. There is a fraction on the liberal side that is hawkish and that has outsize support in the mainstream media, but it is still only a fraction. Your claim is just as wrong as it is wrong to blame the Democrats for the Iraq invasion because some Democrats did support it at the time, and this whole framing is totally steeped in bad faith, but that is precisely what we must expect from commenters like stj.

The antiliberals (or anti-anti-rightists) showing up here hate LGM precisely because they destroy their narrative. LGM has offered the strongest refutation of the hawkish foreign policy blob (e. g. https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/08/the-laughably-unjustified-hubris-of-the-foreign-policy-military-blob) and also steadfastly exposes anti-anti-Trumpers like Greenwald (https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/tag/glenn-greenwald) as fascist fellow-travellers.

35

Tm 10.27.21 at 8:54 am

More on Bolsonaro and Trump:

Brazilian senators vote to seek 9 criminal charges against Bolsonaro.
In a six-month investigation, the panel found that Mr. Bolsonaro and members of his administration discouraged people from wearing masks, ignored offers of vaccines and promoted unproven drugs long after they were found to be ineffective.
The report found that the actions, taken together, led to hundreds of thousands of deaths. Brazil has had more than 600,000 deaths from Covid, second only to the United States, where more than 737,000 have died. …
Immediately after the vote, former President Donald J. Trump, who has a warm relationship with Mr. Bolsonaro, issued a statement supporting him: “Brazil is lucky to have a man such as Jair Bolsonaro working for them!”

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/10/26/world/covid-vaccine-boosters#brazil-bolsonaro-criminal-charges

If Greenwald opposes Bolsonaro, I commend him for that. At the same time he’s been defending precisely the anti-vaxxism of which Bolsonaro is one of the most aggressive promoters. Wait until he turns anti-anti-Bolsonaro just to be contrarian.

The Covid anti-vaxx wave is hard to understand but it really seems that Authoritarians International have just been taking cues from each other, for no discernable political reason except that it’s a way to oppose the liberals. Luckily, Brazilians aren’t listening to this and seem enthusiastic about the life-saving vaccines, with 75% now having gotten the first dose (vs 66% in the US).

36

aubergine 10.27.21 at 1:19 pm

TM @ 37:

and also steadfastly exposes anti-anti-Trumpers like Greenwald (https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/tag/glenn-greenwald) as fascist fellow-travellers.

I’ve somehow managed to avoid forming a strong opinion about Glenn Greenwald up ’til now, but after reading the first link on that page (the one where Greenwald examines the congressional investigation into the 6 January “protest” and finds it wanting) I think I’ve made up my mind.

37

SusanC 10.27.21 at 1:46 pm

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350153/Journalist-helped-Edward-Snowden-expose-NSA-scandal-previously-sued-business-partner-running-Hairy-Jocks-porn-business.html

From the Daily Mail, so take anything it says with a pinch of salt.

But, given Greenwald is an LGBT activist of liberal persuasion (in the UK sense of liberal) who is against Internet censorship, being involved in a “Hairy Jocks” website is entirely consistent with his overall political position. Defending your right to look at pictures of hairy naked guys on the Internet, etc. etc.

38

steven t johnson 10.27.21 at 4:15 pm

AWOL@35 believes “Democracy Now!” is far-left. Not having seen or read this, it’s hard to argue specifics. But the claim Salon was left powerfully suggests AWOL is not a skilled observer. The need to tell us Greenwald was a pornographer also says a lot, to me at least.

Tm reminds me of the Fyvush Finkel character in the old series Picket Fences. He said a lawyer argues the facts when the law is against him and argues the law when the facts are against him. But when both are against him, he pounds the table.

The notion that Robert Farley, honcho at the Patterson School of Diplomacy, Cheryl Rofer, Charli Carpenter and Dan Nexon aren’t part of the blob would be funny if it weren’t tragic. The blob by definition is amorphous. LGM is a group of advisors on how to run the empire efficiently, humanely, without messy overreach. This is not a critique of the blob, it’s being one strand or side or part of it.

The notion that anybody who votes for a third party is a fascist fellow traveler is merely offensive, coming from people who support a real live fascist government in Ukraine. (The open fascists weren’t in charge in Franco’s Spain either.) The ritual abuse still heaped on Nader is astounding, the kind of behavior people tend to think of as a cult.

And LGM does this while claiming anybody who votes for a third party is a fascist fellow traveler, even as the Democratic Party is giving the insurrectionists a pass! LGM also ignores the religious element in the insurrection, partly because they share the mad dog anti-Communism, despite the overlap with anti-Semitism. Similarly, the religious element in anti-vaxxer is ignored because religion is off limits (except unpopular ones like celibate clergy and Scientology.) LGM is quite happy to live in Joe McCarthy’s political universe, where the left has been purged.

39

nastywoman 10.28.21 at 7:33 am

@42
‘But the claim Salon was left powerfully suggests AWOL is not a skilled observer’.

But the claim that somebody is not a ‘skilled observer’ if he -(or she) – claims – that Salon was ‘left’ – powerfully suggests that Mr. J is NOT a ‘skilled observer – as when I started to read ‘Salon’ – they were so obviously and undoubtably ‘on the left’ that even somebody like Glenn Greenwald was able to differentiate between ‘Salon’ and – for example – all the other Internet Magazines – who – very obviously – were ‘on the right’ -(or should we say: fiends of the Republicans and ‘the Bushes’) and the point that –
NOW –
not even a dude like Mr. J can’t differentiate between the Salon of Greenwald’ and the completely confused Greenwald of 2021 – powerfully reminds me of the Fyvush Finkel character in the old series Picket Fences.

As he said ‘a lawyer argues the facts when the law is against him and argues the law when the facts are against him. But when both are against him, he pounds other commenters on CT.

And about:
‘The notion that anybody who votes for a third party is a fascist fellow traveler is merely offensive’ –
Yes it is!
As Glenn Greenwald has been identified to be ‘a fascist fellow traveler’ NOT because he votes for a third party –
BUT
BE-cause he idiotically propagandises for ‘fascist fellow travellers’ –
(even without noticing it?)

Or how else would you call a ‘Insurrection denier’?

‘Alex Jones’?

40

tm 10.28.21 at 9:36 am

stj: “LGM also ignores the religious element in the insurrection, partly because they share the mad dog anti-Communism, despite the overlap with anti-Semitism. Similarly, the religious element in anti-vaxxer is ignored because religion is off limits”

This guy is living in a fantasy world wasting his precious time inventing strawmen. A minute of googling would have spared him the embarassment.

https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/?s=evangelical
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/04/white-evangelical-resistance-to-covid-vaccination
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/09/the-white-evangelical-attack-on-voting-rights
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/09/leader-of-authoritarian-christofascist-cult-addresses-rally-of-another-authoritarian-christofascist-cult

41

aubergine 10.28.21 at 1:43 pm

The problem, J-D, seems to be that you are coming to a complex, contested issue with a long history and strong feelings on both sides, and making pronouncements on it based on a brief summary from a Wikipedia page.

42

J-D 10.29.21 at 2:54 am

The problem, J-D, seems to be that you are coming to a complex, contested issue with a long history and strong feelings on both sides, and making pronouncements on it based on a brief summary from a Wikipedia page.

It’s not clear to me how it is a problem if I express an opinion about what I have read on a Wikipedia page. This is an open thread. If you would like to express an opinion about the content of my pronouncements (if that is what you would like to call them), you are free to do so; being under no obligation, you can also choose not to.

43

Chris Bertram 10.30.21 at 12:09 pm

I’ve only just noticed the extensive discussion of the Kathleen Stock affair on this thread. I do not want a situation where commenters expose CT to an action for defamation. I note that Kiwanda has attributed to me various positions on the basis of misinterpreting tweets of mine and making inferences from the fact that I have not signed various open letters, all such inferences are unsafe. I have deleted all tweets mentioning Stock.

Comments on this entry are closed.