Mostly English British and Irish Lions

by Chris Bertram on June 22, 2005

We haven’t had a sports thread here on CT for a while, but since we have representatives of at least three of the four nations making up the Lions, and some no-doubt-interested antipodeans, comments are open. Personally, I’m “astonished at the selection”:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/international/4118436.stm : overwhelmingly English. Henson, Shane Williams and Geordan Murphy miss out, and players who’ve done nothing for a while (Robinson, Wilkinson) are included. England, despite being World Cup winners, flopped badly in the Six Nations, and are currently ranked 6th in the world, behind Wales. Stand by for a massacre by the All Blacks on Saturday morning (or later on, depending on your timezone …)

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Crooked Timber » » Go Lions!
07.02.05 at 8:36 am

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1

P ONeill 06.22.05 at 10:17 am

The selection seems to have been reasonably well-received in Ireland with the main reservation being the apparent reliance on “experience.”

2

Dave Gwydion 06.22.05 at 10:25 am

Bloody outrageous. That’s what I think it is. Sir Clive has failed to move on from 2003, when England were–let’s face it–extremely lucky to win the World Cup. The team he has picked for the Lions is essentially the English World Cup team–a team that peaked in 2002 and was soundly beaten by the All Backs in 2004. I think the team to play the All Backs ought tohave been the following:

Lewsey
Willams (S)
Shanklin
Henson
Thomas
Jones
Peel
Back
Owen
Jones
Grewcock
O’Connell
Jenkins
Byrne
White

Replacements:
Murphy
Wilkinson
Cussiter
Williams (M)
Kay
Sheridan
Thompson

3

Michael H. 06.22.05 at 10:56 am

I have no idea what sport you are talking about but it clearly is not any North American sport and it isn’t cricket, so it’s really of no interest to me or most of the English speaking blogosphere.

Why not talk about cricket? Bangladesh recently beat Australia in an ODI. That’s something noteworthy.

4

Mikr 06.22.05 at 11:09 am

Wilkinson has proved himself the best Rugby player in the world time and time again since he emerged as a seminal part of a World Cup winning team. Anyone who doesn’t believe he should start against the All Blacks obviously didn’t watch him in the Wild Card Play-off semi final or in the friendly against Argentina when he held the team together. Or has forgotten him singlehandedly beating the All Blacks two tears ago on their own turf alongside Back, Hill etc. Who have the defensive abilities to keep out the Kiwis that the Welsh lack (Henson aside although he’s looking vulnerable against top class runners at the moment. Also- you should have a look at England’s kicking stats for the last 5 nations and look at the tiny margins they lost games by. With Wilkinson we would have won the whole competition and the Welsh wouldn’t be so deluded.

I do think Henson should be playing, however, but at the expense of Jones who is good but not special.

5

Ben 06.22.05 at 11:35 am

Owen?

You jest. He’s not been better than either Corry or Ryan Jones. A fine link player with the ball in hand, but outmuscled on this tour and not strong enough in his leadership.

The big calls here are the exclusion of Shanklin and the inclusion of Greenwood, which is mystifying. Shanklin should be either starting with Wilkinson on the bench or should at the very least be on the bench.

Robinson is pretty debatable as a test team choice and appears to be in on reputation. Woodward has picked him because of his defence, and because he can, on form, be a game turner. Williams is unlucky, but he suffers from two key faults – a tendency to run very laterally under pressure and poor defence. I’d rather have Shanklin because he is more dependable.

Henson is overhyped and has not played that well on tour. He has failed to tackle properly, is a strong, but quite predictable runner and singularly failed to gel as a centre partnership with O’Driscoll, which is the real reason for his omission.

The second big call is Richard Hill. Arguably Corry should be at 6 with Jones at 8 and Hill covering all 3 back row positions from the bench. Expect to see Jones come on at 50-60 mins as an impact player, and possibly to make the line up for the second test.

6

Brian 06.22.05 at 12:57 pm

it clearly is not any North American sport and it isn’t cricket, so it’s really of no interest to me or most of the English speaking blogosphere

Let’s go through the countries that make up the English speaking blogosphere, and see where rugby ranks compared to ‘North American sports’ (as a group) and cricket.

America – second (way ahead of cricket, esp at college level)
Canada – third
England – second
Scotland – first
Ireland – first
Wales – I guess first (though I don’t know exactly how big cricket is there to be sure)
Australia – second (perhaps first in some exclusive schools around Sydney)
New Zealand – easily first
English speaking parts of the continent – easily first
English speaking parts of Asia – ??

I’d say that’s enough reason to have the occasional rugby thread over the ‘North American sports’, unless perhaps we are meant to be focussing on the Canadian demographic.

If the readers want daily Red Sox threads (or Roy & HG style stories about late night parties involving CT and the Australian cricket team) those can be provided, but I think that might dilute the product.

7

Nick 06.22.05 at 1:17 pm

Wot, no Mark Cueto? They’re doomed, doomed I tell you . . .

8

Kieran Healy 06.22.05 at 5:18 pm

Don’t worry — when they lose they’ll magically revert to being the Irish Lions again, at least in the English media.

9

Greg 06.22.05 at 5:26 pm

Mind you, today’s Irish Independent whinges at length about Wilkinson’s inclusion at Henson’s expense.

‘The Lions concept has always been vulnerable to the threat of partisan selection but in the past this hasn’t prevented a catalogue of heroes drawn from across the islands: when the Lions last dazzled New Zealand 34 years ago, the Dragon of Wales was the inevitable motif when Gareth Edwards and Barry John worked so brilliantly to inflict the national genius.

Stirrings of excitement over a significant revival gathered still more strength at the weekend with the mesmerising performance of Ryan Jones, whose original omission was freshly exposed as an offence against natural justice.

Woodward talked about the Welsh contribution to the current tour; said they had injected a bold sense of what might be possible. Words and action have rarely been so far apart.’

And so on, in a fairly scathing attack on Wilkinson, and more seriously on Woodward, concluding that‘In the absence of a stunning but so-far well concealed masterplan, we can only assume Woodward is feeding from an old bowl: he looks for nourishment in English forward power and the boot of Wilkinson. It has worked for him before but the guarantee looks a little frayed now.’.

10

strewelpeter 06.23.05 at 3:28 am

How quickly things change. Back in Feburary I shared a long flight with an English guy (I’m Irish)who was also into Rugby. He made me very envious telling me about the trip he had planned to cover the NZ tour. When I left him, I told him that I thought it was very nice of him to travel all that way and spend all that money to support a team of Irish and Welsh players…Oh how we laughed :-(

11

Matt 06.23.05 at 8:13 am

I think you are wrong. Lets take the selection of Wilkinson. The ABs have an excellent left foot/right foot 10/12 combination, and this Jones/Wilko LF/RF combo is designed to counter that. Don’t be fooled, the ABs will do their fair share of kicking – in the first test at least.

I don’t believe that Lewsey will be on the wing, almost certainly he and Robinson will be swapped, and the reason he is in is his defense – much more reliable than Shane Williams. Not that I don’t feel sorry for him, but we are not going to be playing that type of game. Murphy has looked shaky in each of his games, I’m not sure why, but he seem sto have played himself out of contention.

The only problem I have is with the bench. Too old, conservative, and the selection of Greenwood is verging on the ridiculous. That is the only selection that I can not understand where SCW is coming from….. he’ll come on and score a brace now, won’t he?!??

12

Ben 06.23.05 at 9:33 am

Agree entirely.

The most contentious inclusions are Dawson and Greenwood, and possibly Rowntree, where Cusiter, Shanklin and Sheridan arguably deserved a look in.

Henson may get a test spot later, but the focus on him and Owen misses the point – neither of them have played particularly well.

Shane Williams is great in attack, but, like Paterson, his defence is suspect and it has cost him (in this case a test spot rather than a tour spot).

There is an argument that Easterby should have started ahead of Hill, which can be made. However, the idea that the Welsh are being especially hard done by is nonsense – and based on a poor understanding of how well Henson, Owen and Williams have played and how effective they would be against the All Blacks.

13

strewelpeter 06.23.05 at 9:53 am

What is he trying to do by putting Wilkinson out the line?
If he thinks it is to try to protect him he hasn’t been watching the Blacks. My prediction (and of course I hope I’m wrong)is that before half time Johnny will be on his way to the airport with his body in a sling.
Another thing is, Alright Geordan Murphy hasn’t had the greatest season but picking Robinson in front of him can only mean that Sir Clive hasn’t been able to see past the world cup .

14

Cheryl Morgan 06.23.05 at 11:56 am

I’m stunned. Given Clive’s previous behaviour I had expected that O’Driscoll and Peel would be the only non-English players in the side. I’m sure that Clive sees picking so many Welsh and Irish players as a massive climb-down on his part.

15

strewelpeter 06.24.05 at 9:32 am

Barry Glendenning is a teeny bit upset about this in the Grauniad today:

“Was it for this that thousands of boorish, deck shoe-wearing city boys took six weeks out of the city to aroo-cha-cha halfway around the world at great expense in order to stand on pub tables with their trousers around their ankles while drinking pints of lager through a sock? It probably was, but they’re all floppy-fringed imbeciles and quite frankly the rest of us deserve better.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/story/0,3605,1511971,00.html

16

strewelpeter 06.24.05 at 9:34 am

17

Another Damned Medievalist 06.24.05 at 12:48 pm

Michael H. —

Rugby. World. Cup.

Lots of Murcans play rugby. And a WC is a WC. And most of the timberites, although English-speakers, seem to be from countries where rugby is played (and arguably played well).

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