Random observations on the US

by Chris Bertram on November 14, 2005

I’m in Madison Wisconsin for the week and enjoying my first experience of the US away from the east coast. As visitors are, I keep being struck by the micro-details of life and how they differ from the UK. Harry and I just had lunch in a student cafeteria. Having finished our sandwiches we got up to get some coffee from a machine and simply left our coats and bags by our table whilst we did so, even though they were not always in sight. The cafeteria was also organized with the tills at one end and the seating back in the same space as the self-service access to food. Everyone stands in line and pays before taking their seats. All of this is radically different from the UK where (a) one learns from an early age to hang on to all one’s property because otherwise it will be stolen and (b) where given an opportunity to take food from the university, sit down and eat it and not pay, many (even most) students would do so.

(On the downside, the built environment has far too much concrete, especially on roadways and pavements (flagstones would make such a difference) and people eat dinner barbarically early — 6pm!!).

(On the very downside, I tuned into Country Music TV in my hotel room and found no overlap whatsoever with the stuff that gets played by “Bob Harris”:http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/bobharriscountry/index.shtml : Emmylou, Steve Earle, Gillian Welch — forget it — it is all wall-to-wall pap by people wearing cowboy hats. Appalling.)

{ 80 comments }

1

saurabh 11.14.05 at 3:41 pm

Re: (a), recall that the U.S. is a vast country, and different sensibilities apply in different parts of the country. That would almost certainly be true in any major city on the East Coast. Re: (b), that’s indisputably the case in the U.S. as well, and I’m sure students in Madison do the same.

2

Espen Andersen 11.14.05 at 3:44 pm

Ref. saurabh’s comment: It is my firm belief that the border between Europe and the US is about 15 miles West of Boston….

3

Hektor Bim 11.14.05 at 3:44 pm

I think this actually points out something that is not regularly appreciated by most people regarding crime in the US and the UK.

Violent crime is in general far less in the UK than in the US, but the rate of property crime is actually much higher in the UK. I remember an english grad student of mine telling me had three bicycles stolen while in Oxford.

Saurabh’s point should also be recognized, of course. Both the US and the UK are diverse societies with different characteristics.

I would challenge the point that people would eat and not pay. I rarely saw that at my university in the US – maybe people have different experiences?

4

mpowell 11.14.05 at 3:51 pm

This brings up a question I have had. What explains this difference b/w violent and property crimes in the US versus the UK? Has anybody researched this issue?

5

tom bach 11.14.05 at 4:07 pm

Leaving stuff unattended at the UW-M, particularly in the Rathskeller is a mistake. It is not the students so much as it is a plain fact of the matter that the Union and the Terrace are used by the rest of the city’s dwellers and as such are filled with the sort of riff-raff that nick things. Although gentrification killed most of the nice dives, The Pickney Street Hideaway or the Comic Strip and time has robbed State Street of some of its fun, like Paul of Paul’s club drunkenly crooning Sinatra under the leaves of his own indoor tree, beer on the Terrace, should the weather permit is still a gas.

6

Alex Gregory 11.14.05 at 4:07 pm

“I remember an english grad student of mine telling me had three bicycles stolen while in Oxford.”

You see, I read that, and thought “and?” because its what I expect – maybe Nottingham is worse than elsewhere (it certainly has a worse reputation), but I certainly wouldn’t think that having your bike stolen 3 times in 3 years is extraordinary.

For another anecdote, my girlfriend’s house last year was broken into 4 times, and they also had their windows smashed by local kids around 5-10 times. That’s probably a little extreme, but I doubt that they were the only ones with that degree of trouble.

7

Another Damned Medievalist 11.14.05 at 4:17 pm

Chris, that’s because Bob Harris likes *good* music … Now, if you get a chance to watch Austin city Limits, that’s more in line with Whistling Bob.

8

Andrew 11.14.05 at 4:17 pm

I had a problem with the 6pm dinner when I first came to the States. Once I tried to make a date with a woman once who wanted to eat dinner at 5pm. Some restaurants even close at 8pm and many by 9pm giving me about forty-five minutes to eat from my usually starting time of quarter after eight. The problem stems from lunch. I’ve had lunch meetings scheduled at 11am, and my brother-in-law’s son’s school in Seattle had lunch starting at 10:40. If you eat lunch at 10:40 or 11, how can you possibly wait until a reasonable time to have dinner?

9

MQ 11.14.05 at 4:17 pm

Violent crime, not just property crime, is probably higher in England/Scotland than the U.S. At least this is what a wide range of surveys and stats are saying now. The only exception is the murder rate, which is several times higher in the U.S. Probably because guns are more widely available. But assault, strongarm robbery, and I believe rape as well are all more common in Great Britain.

10

Thomas 11.14.05 at 4:19 pm

Based on my admittedly underinformed impression, much of UW Madison was built at an unfortunate time, which may explain some of the concrete. There was a time when we’d pave anything in this country and call it progress. As for the choice of concrete vs. flagstone: I hear that Madison gets snow and ice on occasion, and I believe snow and ice are removed from concrete more easily.

11

J. Ellenberg 11.14.05 at 4:22 pm

Welcome to Madison, CB! If I see your coat anywhere, I’ll be sure to make off with it so you don’t get too homesick.

12

Tad Brennan 11.14.05 at 4:28 pm

a defense of early dinners:

they are more kid-friendly. Kids need to go to bed by around 8p at the latest. So parents get used to dining around 6p or so, maybe 7p if your kids are older, maybe 5:30 if they’re younger.

If you haven’t noticed this, yet, Chris, you may find other differences clustering around this core: parents in the US, for better or for worse, make more accommodations to their children’s schedules. And those accommodations have knock-on effects even when you are not dining with your kids, and even when you are not dining with parents, and so on.

13

ponte 11.14.05 at 4:28 pm

Espen Andersen:

You’ve obviously never been to New Hampshire. :)

14

Bob B 11.14.05 at 4:30 pm

A random observation on Britain and its political leaders:

“All of this is radically different from the UK where (a) one learns from an early age to hang on to all one’s property because otherwise it will be stolen and (b) where given an opportunity to take food from the university, sit down and eat it and not pay, many (even most) students would do so.”

Please, remind us. What did become of that resounding call: Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime, which brought so much fame and fortune to Tony Blair?

15

Matt 11.14.05 at 4:30 pm

Leaving your stuff in semi-public places and getting away with it (not having it stolen) varries quite a bit from place to place in the US, too. Where I grew up and went to college people leave there stuff around all the time and no one takes it. When I was a kid I’d leave my bike unlocked in front of stores and at school all the time. In other places I’ve lived in the US this sort of thing leads only to pain and suffering. If you read the campus crime report at Penn almost all of it is from people leaving their things unattended.

16

saurabh 11.14.05 at 4:35 pm

I’d like to underscore again the futility of making uniform statements about the States. E.g., there’s a fair number of bicyclists in Boston, but bicycle theft is almost unheard of. Certainly there’s no bike theft industry here; this is amply evidenced by the fact that few people bother to chain their bike securely, often even leaving freewheels unlocked for extended unattended periods. Cf. Columbus, Ohio, where I spent a summer. There, it was virtually assured that if you did not chain every piece of the bike to every other piece, the unprotected part would be stolen if left unattended for ~1 hr.

17

harry b 11.14.05 at 4:36 pm

Andrew’s comment about 6 pm dinners needs a response, Chris. I think he’s a mind-reader.

18

harry b 11.14.05 at 4:39 pm

Ok, now I see where you mentioned the dinners — I hadnt’ found it in the post.

The defence of early dinners is incomplete. I ahve to be up at 6 in order to get my wife and kid out of the door by 6.55, and have to have breakfast with them (well, I like them, and am unwilling to sacrifice having breakfast with them). So I am starving by 11; and again by 5.30. The schools could change everything by opening at a less barbaric time.

19

Saheli 11.14.05 at 4:40 pm

Hah, trust Saurabh to say first what I was going to say.

I think leaving things around is luck of the draw. I’ve had purses filled with cash returned to me by strangers off the train. I’ve also had little bits of nothing stolen if not watched for mere seconds. I’m not sure I would leave my coat hanging out of sight in Berkeley, but that might just be childhood paranoia. It’s hard to quantify these things.

20

Ray 11.14.05 at 4:41 pm

Sure, early dinners are more kid-friendly, but are not most diners kid-free, at least for the evening?

21

Chris Bertram 11.14.05 at 4:45 pm

Kids need to go to bed by around 8p at the latest.

I see what you’re saying. But Spanish kids manage to eat with their parents at around 10pm or later and don’t seem to be suffering compared to children of other nations. They do, however, get a nice siesta in the afternoon.

22

harry b 11.14.05 at 4:45 pm

My wife has lost her purse three times (credit cards, cash, everything inside) and all three times has had it returned (twice via police, in CA, once from the place it was lost in WA, 3 years late!!!)

23

Andrew 11.14.05 at 5:01 pm

When I first came to Seattle, which is a very low-crime city as far as the US, I witnessed a bare-foot man park his very new mercedes on a street corner, exit the car with the engine running and key still in, leave the door open, and walk out of the car into an atm room. That was so far removed from anything I’d ever seen growing up in Sydney that I almost drove off with the car myself. In Seattle, I’ve seen a lot of cars with the doors unlocked and I was amazed that my neighbour never locked her front door, even when she was gone for weeks.
There is huge variety accross the nation, however. Last week, two men tried to break into my apartment here in San Francisco when I was clearly home, and many of the cars on the street get their windows broken. Scary stuff.

24

Uncle Kvetch 11.14.05 at 5:05 pm

I agree with those above who are basically saying that geographical variation within the US on the matter of property crime pretty much swamps any generalizations that one might make about “the US” in general.

Here in Noo Yawk, I wouldn’t think of leaving any personal belongings unattended in a public place…it’s second nature, you just don’t.

At the other end of the spectrum, when I lived in Minneapolis I had a friend who grew up in Fargo, North Dakota. If we went out to a bar she would go off to the rest room leaving her wallet and her passport (which she used as her all-purpose ID, for some reason) sitting in plain view on the bar. That was considered foolhardy in Minneapolis, but she found it hard to shake off the effects of growing up in a place where people will run into a convenience store and leave the car running in the parking lot for 10 minutes at a time….

25

Wrong 11.14.05 at 5:37 pm

So I am starving by 11; and again by 5.30.

That problem is traditionally solved in the UK by eating elevenses, i.e., a cup of tea and some simple carbohydrates at 11, to keep you going until a civilized lunch at one o’clock or so.

26

Saheli 11.14.05 at 5:42 pm

But Spanish kids manage to eat with their parents at around 10pm or later and don’t seem to be suffering compared to children of other nations. They do, however, get a nice siesta in the afternoon. But when do they have to go to school?

The schools could change everything by opening at a less barbaric time

I think this is the problem. This and stock markets. They’re the only things that absolutely must be up and running by 8 am. Everyone else would rather start their work day at 10, I’m convinced. I don’t know about stocks, but I’m sure children would learn better if they got in a little later.

27

Kim 11.14.05 at 6:09 pm

“My wife has lost her purse three times (credit cards, cash, everything inside) and all three times has had it returned (twice via police, in CA, once from the place it was lost in WA, 3 years late)”

Note to self: low on cash? follow Harry’s wife.

Seriously, it seems like it would be most useful to compare across “matched” pairs of geographic units, where the matching would be on the usual suspects — size, proximity to state capital, income, demographic composition, etc. Not to make causal claims, mind you, but just to better assess the whether there are in fact country-level differences in petty theft of the sort that are being bandied about.

I haven’t seen our house key in 6 months.

28

e-tat 11.14.05 at 6:45 pm

I hear that Madison gets snow and ice on occasion, and I believe snow and ice are removed from concrete more easily.

On occasion? The background for this photo is Lake Mendota.

29

SeanD 11.14.05 at 6:50 pm

I’d agree with Andrew about Seattle- I grew up there, and the paranoia about theft down here in Atlanta (where I am now) was quite shocking, if perhaps justified. The funny thing about the Seattle area is that people are, if anything, more trusting in the ‘inner city’ than in the suburbs. You’d be hard pressed, I think, to find many unlocked doors in Bellevue or Issaquah (or shoeless Mercedes-driver). But then Seattle may be unusual in that much of the city is relatively affluent- poverty there concentrates more in certain nearby suburbs (not the ones cited above) than in the city proper.

30

Kenny Easwaran 11.14.05 at 8:01 pm

If you’re going to talk pictures of Lake Mendota, you better talk about this one!

31

A. G. Rud 11.14.05 at 8:58 pm

My wife is English and she urges me, even here in midwest cornland, to “find a seat” in a university eatery, but I tell her that we can’t bogart that table with our stuff while others are ahead of us in line.

Madison is one of my fave university towns, ah, concrete and all. My first visit there years ago, I witnessed a Dalai Lama look alike contest, in honor of his visit. And don’t miss the Mustard Museum in Mount Horub a few miles outside of Madison…

32

derrida derider 11.14.05 at 9:24 pm

It’s not only the US that has a lot of geographic variation. Andrew’s right – don’t leave things unattended in Sydney. But in Canberra – only 200 miles away – you could fairly safely leave your bike/coat/whatever unwatched.

As so often, the within-group variance is much larger than the between-group variance.

33

goatchowder 11.14.05 at 9:31 pm

It depends on where you are. More of Europe is densely urbanised compared to the USA, which is still mostly rural or suburban. Crime rates correlates with population density, IIRC. I grew up near NYC, and leaving your stuff and expecting it to be there was considered hopelessly “out of towner” naive. I never would have done it.

It would probably be equally ill-advised in Berkeley, lets say, or Oakland. But in the more suburban areas, why not?

As for the western European boundary ending at roughly Worcester, MA (or Albany, NY), I’d agree. And I’d suggest that the eastern boundary of Asia ends at Livermore or Arcadia, and the northern boundary of Mexico somewhere around Sonoma.

I grew up in New York and then lived in Los Angeles and San Francisco, and I feel like I’ve never really lived in America, but rather in Europe and Asia. The time I spent in the midwest was quite a culture shock. Real America– the midwestern part– was a very alien environment for me, compared to the coasts.

The America I know and love as a multi-cultural, multi-racial, multi-ethnic melting pot appears to be a phenomenon local to the major cities and the coasts. Beyond that, I find it a very different country.

34

mykej 11.14.05 at 10:05 pm

Regarding the barbarically early school times for kids (which leads to early dinners), I was wondering….Did schools always start so early, or does it relate to suburban/exurban sprawl? A parent who lives in, say Manassas, VA, faces an hour and a half commute into DC. Did schools change opening times to accomodate commuting patterns, or did they always open so godawful early?

When I was a kid, everything before noon seemed godawful early, and still does. I don’t remember what time I went to school because even if I made it on time, I was still asleep.

35

MQ 11.14.05 at 10:30 pm

Goatchowder, I’ve lived all over the U.S. and I disagree rather completely with your assessment of how different the various areas are. Find the right neighborhood in Columbus, Ohio and it will have some similarities to San Francisco, find the right suburb of San Jose and it will be rather similar to a suburb of Columbus. You can find most dimensions of the U.S. in most places if you know where to look. It’s a pretty homogeneous country given its size, certainly compared to Europe.

36

aretino 11.14.05 at 11:10 pm

We need an early supper because we don’t have afternoon tea.

37

thibaud 11.14.05 at 11:49 pm

Chris,

If you want a glimpse of the real America, then rent a car and get out of the upper middle-class post-adolescent bubble that is Madison. Spend a day in Milwaukee and find a good Somali restaurant for us. There must be an excellent one or two; the city has tens of thousands of somali-americans. Perhaps there’s the kernel of a screenplay in there somewhere a la Mississippi Marsala….

Goat,

The America I know and love as a multi-cultural, multi-racial, multi-ethnic melting pot appears to be a phenomenon local to the major cities and the coasts. Beyond that, I find it a very different country.

I don’t know your definition of “major cities,” but if it refers to the top 15-20 MSAs, then this assertion isn’t accurate. For ex:

Milwaukee WI, Columbus OH, and Minneapolis each have very large populations of muslim somali-Americans (30,000 in Columbus alone).

Columbus reputedly also has one of the highest densities of lesbians, probably the highest, outside San Francisco.

You’ll also find astonishing diversity in small towns and rural areas across the midwest, from amish communities to more modern strict Dutch Reformed communities to East European catholic enclaves to a very heavy German influence (including excellent classical music in many midwestern cities– the midwest has traditionally been home to America’s best symphonies, cf Cleveland Orchestra under Szell). Plus small towns dominated by scandinavians and of course large populations of mexican immigrants and also transplanted southern white and african-american baptists all over the place.

And the major cities have extraordinary diversity, of a type and extent that shocks Americans as well as foreign visitors. Detroit has more arabs (estimated 250,000, primarily Iraqi-Chaldean, Syrian, Lebanese, and Palestinian and Jordanian) than any city in the world outside of the middle east, including London. St Louis, another heavily German city, reportedly now has a large and thriving bosnian muslim population. Chicago is of course extraordinarily diverse and very rich in cultural offerings, not least in theatre and art.

38

Alison 11.15.05 at 1:39 am

Do you recall there was an experiment in comparative anthropology, where they gave people from different countries an hypothetical moral ‘dilemma’. This was that someone could only travel to meet a social familial obligation by stealing a train ticket (there were various caveats such that it was clear nobody was hurt by the theft). There was variation, of course, in the way people evaluated the dilemma.

As far as I recall, the USA had the highest level of people saying it was wrong to steal the ticket. I don’t think this is a reflection of more or less morality, just of a different model of moral precedence.

My impression is that within US society the property relationship is seen as morally fundamental, and as a relationship between a person and a piece of property, whereas in some other societies it is seen as a relationship embedded within obligations of one kind or another (in Europe this may be a hang-over from the aristocratic or even Feudal systems) for instance, the obligation to maintain one’s fields. I feel Libertarianism is a product of the American asocial model of ownership.

I think the problem for British society is that we are transitional between the two models of property.

Though, having said all that, I am quite absent minded, and I do get my purse and bag returned to me by kind strangers fairly often.

39

Peter 11.15.05 at 3:55 am

I grew up in a rural town in Australia, population about 10,000. We never locked our cars, because, well, nobody stole cars there. However, when we drove to the next town 20 miles away, we always locked our cars because we knew that car theft was rampant there.

In high school, we got to play sport against kids from schools in the next town. Guess what? They and their parents never locked their cars in *their* town, because they knew it was safe, but they always did when they visited our town!

40

abb1 11.15.05 at 5:13 am

Property is theft.

41

soru 11.15.05 at 5:13 am

Certainly there’s no bike theft industry here

That seems strange, as a bicycle theft industry is such a perfect business model (steal bikes, sell them to the people who have had bikes stolen) it could probably feature in an episode of the Apprentice.

Is the lack of this industry in the US just a market failure, or is there some cultural factor?Perhaps students are unwilling to buy possibly dodgy second hand bikes?

soru

42

Tom 11.15.05 at 5:49 am

Yesterday some hooligans knocked over a dustbin in Shaftesbury.

43

Carlos 11.15.05 at 6:27 am

You know, in the northern part of the state (where I’m from, yah hey), Madison is viewed as some sort of decadent hippie Babylon. And still, they wouldn’t expect casual thievery in Madison of the sort you describe in the UK. Maybe in Milwaukee.

Anyway. While you’re in town, you should go out for frozen custard. I know it’s November. Trust me on this. Also, cheese curds.

44

Slocum 11.15.05 at 8:42 am

That seems strange, as a bicycle theft industry is such a perfect business model (steal bikes, sell them to the people who have had bikes stolen) it could probably feature in an episode of the Apprentice.

There’s no bicycle theft industry now because bicycles are so ridiculously cheap. On campus here (Ann Arbor), bicycle theft isn’t a problem, bicycle abandonment is. When winter comes on (or when they leave after term) some students simply abandon bikes locked to racks. Every so often the university has to come by and cut off and dispose of the abandoned bikes.

On the other hand, there is an iPod and laptop computer theft industry. Students in off-campus housing are very lax in locking up, and thieves wander in and then wander off with electronic gadgets regularly.

45

Ginger Yellow 11.15.05 at 9:03 am

Staying with college towns, I’m regularly thrown by “micro-details” when I visit my family in Champaign-Urbana, IL. The most recent discovery was little posts on every street corner in the campus part of town with a button that you press to speak to the police. According to my U of I attending cousin, if you press the button, the police have to send a car round. You would never, ever get such a thing in the UK, becaused pissed people would run down the street pressing each one, all night, every night.

46

reuben 11.15.05 at 9:35 am

On the topic of Brits, I’m curious about the economics behind the new bendy buses in London. (For those who haven’t had the pleasure, these are ghastly, extra-long, single-deck, conductor-less buses that can be entered and exited through one of several doors. You don’t have to go past the driver to get in, and are expected to pay by manually scanning your travel pass on the numerous scanners found throughout the bus.)

According to a German friend, these bendy buses are fairly popular in Germany and almost all riders pay. Here in London, they’re known as ‘the free bus’, and, as far as I can tell, almost no one pays (at least not in my rather impoverished area). Last week, I actually got tutted at for scanning my card, as I was holding up the woman behind me, who of course didn’t pay. Has Mayor Ken over-estimated the percentage of Brits who will pay? (On the one occasion I did see a ticket inspector get on, half the bus suddenly realised they were at their stop.) Are all these losses being made up by not paying conductors’ salaries? Or are we just depending on income from German tourists?

47

Matt 11.15.05 at 9:42 am

Long bending busses are common in many cities in the US, and also in Russia. In the US you have to pay in the front, usually. In Russia there is a conductor who comes and takes your money which is quite a pain since they are mostly rather heavy-set women and the busses are often packed. People in Russia will often claim that the bus was free in the Soviet Union and so get annoyed when they have to pay now. In fact it’s not true that the bus was free in the Soviet Union- but, paying (or punching your ticket, rather) was done on a sort of honor system. Signs on the bus said “your conscience is the best conductor”. As it turns out this just isn’t so. (Not in England either, I guess.)

48

eweininger (Worcester native) 11.15.05 at 9:47 am

Re: 33–Worcester, MA??? Who would have thunk it?

49

Thlayli 11.15.05 at 11:15 am

I got myself a free train ride when I was in London recently. At the platforms at Liverpool Street station, all the ticket-reader/gate things were open. I got on the train, assuming that either a conductor would come through or there would be an exit gate at the destination, like on the Tube. Neither was the case.

50

Mark 11.15.05 at 11:24 am

1. I think your comment on country and western is wrong. As a Brit who’s lived in Denver for 10 years, a place where the No 1 radio station since I’ve lived here, has been KYGO, a C&W station. Now I don’t care for it at all, because I just don’t get it – but the reason I don’t get it is (as Morissey once sang) It says nothing to me about my life. And indeed it says nothing to you. Try talking to someone who wears a cowboy hat, and see what they think about indie rock.

2. On bendy buses, when I used to commute on buses in the Paris Suburbs, everyone had a Carte Orange, so the format worked fine

51

Nick Barnes 11.15.05 at 12:01 pm

Who leaves the house at 6:55 to get to school? My children’s schools both start at 9, and my children leave the house between 8:45 (to dawdle) and 8:55 (running).
This is in Cambridge, UK. Also a bicycle town. There’s a fair amount of bike theft, but in 19 years here I’ve never had my bike stolen (well, once it was taken from the back yard but the thief abandoned it after a few metres when he realised it was properly locked). These days I mostly don’t even bother locking it *to* anything.

52

bob mcmanus 11.15.05 at 12:02 pm

“It says nothing to me about my life. And indeed it says nothing to you. Try talking to someone who wears a cowboy hat, and see what they think about indie rock.”

Uncle Tupelo,Freakwater,Blue Rodeo,Lucinda Williams,My Morning Jacket,Wilco,Cowboy Junkies,Steve Earle,Ry Cooder,John Hiatt,Lyle Lovett,Tarnation,James McMurtry,Hayden,Iron & Wine,Calexico

I can only hope Brokeback Mountain can break the stereotypes and bring us together in a group hug. Take a kicker.

53

Chris Bertram 11.15.05 at 12:28 pm

Try talking to someone who wears a cowboy hat, and see what they think about indie rock.

There are plenty of pictures of Gillian Welch wearing a cowboy hat and she recently covered a Radiohead song.

The point I was making wasn’t anti-country, it was that the crap on CMTV is crap and the good people don’t get played: instead there’s wall-to-wall Toby Keith, Garth Brooks and the like.

54

Steve 11.15.05 at 2:44 pm

“it is all wall-to-wall pap by people wearing cowboy hats. Appalling.”

Yes it is. Unless you happen to be visiting Austin Texas you should concentrate over the are music searching in the US to the student ghetto portion of the dial (say 87-92MHz in the FM band). (there are some decent stations in the very large markets – Chicago, San Diego, LA, but anywhere else nothing).

In Madison you probably are gonna be limited to 1 or 2 stations at the most, hopefully one plays alt-rock, you probably won’t find alt-country (Earle, Welsh, Nanci Griffith, Tift Merritt) very often.

Good Luck!

55

Gar Lipow 11.15.05 at 3:22 pm

For the most part what is on CMT is crap. But there are exceptions: Try to catch Gretchen Wilson’s “Redneck Woman” , Alison Krause’s “Restless Tonight” Alan Jackson’s “5’O Clock Somewhere” or “Talking Repairman Blues”, or Trisha Yearwood’s “Georgia Rain”. Except for the last two, they are mostly out of rotation, but still come on occassionly.

56

Mark 11.15.05 at 3:30 pm

The point I was making wasn’t anti-country, it was that the crap on CMTV is crap and the good people don’t get played: instead there’s wall-to-wall Toby Keith, Garth Brooks and the like.

But what is on CMTV is mainstream country. The guy in the check shirt and wranglers wants Toby, and Garth and Gretchen, they (in general) couldn’t care less about Gillian Welch or have even heard of radiohead. CMTV is music for the masses, and that doesn’t make it bad, It makes it what people want.

Homework: Discuss Gretchen Wilsons’ ‘Red Neck Woman’ versus the Clashes ‘White Riot’ in terms of their reflection of the society in which they were crafted, and how they relate to their principal listening audience.

Who leaves the house at 6:55 to get to school?
Well my kids leave the house at 6.35 to get to high school for first lesson at 7.20

57

aretino 11.15.05 at 3:39 pm

BTW, Madison is a mecca for Lao food. Don’t miss it.

58

soubzriquet 11.15.05 at 3:54 pm

mark: How is this any different than the top 40 or hip hop markets? The majority of music on the airwaves is pretty low quality.

It isn’t the fact that it is music for the masses that makes it bad, but for some reason it seems to be correllated. I have hypothesis about why, but no real answers.

So you’ll have a new silver jews/okkervil river/wilco/neko case/cowboy junkies… disc go all but unnoticed under the barrage of pap from nashville in *exactly* the same way that a new disk from the stars or broken social scene might be lost in a mess of mariah carey + flavour of the week, or a decent rock record (cons/wolf parade/whatever) get no rotation while we are swimming in the spew of nickleback & creed.

I don’t see any difference, really. Not that I am certainly *not* claiming that no good music can come from the large market stuff, but it is pretty rare.

59

Mark 11.15.05 at 5:42 pm

Lets start with this:
(On the very downside, I tuned into Country Music TV in my hotel room and found no overlap whatsoever with the stuff that gets played by Bob Harris : Emmylou, Steve Earle, Gillian Welch—forget it—it is all wall-to-wall pap by people wearing cowboy hats. Appalling.)

Chris turns up in the US, and the first thing he does it characterize a complete musical genre whose shape he appears to only know through the work of DJ’s whose whole raison-d’etre is to promote the obscure artists of a genre as the most ‘representative’, as ‘pap and ‘horrible’. This is simply musical snobbery. Then he turns on the way they dress: “English Literature Professors wearing Tweed Jackets? – Inexcusable” without the fact clicking that this is what people who make and listen to C&W actually wear, from the lowliest musician to the biggest superstar.

Now to respond to your point:
Disclaimer: I do not own a C&W record, nor do I deliberately listen to C&W music on the radio, or watch C&W videos, but theres no escaping it here. In addition, I always felt Andy Kershaw was a twat “That was psychobilly-bluegrass trio The Blue Road Boys, who play their music on home-made zithers, and it was, I think you’ll agree, tremendous”

Music for the masses is what is says it is. Just because its not obscure doesn’t make it bad. This holds true for any genre of music. Just because I still listen to Can’s ‘Soon over Babaluma’, it doesn’t stop me thinking that the Durannys ‘Rio’ is a way better album.

To talk specifically about C&W, I do think that the production values, writing, singing and musicianship are way higher than most other genres, even at a utilitarian musician level, because this is expected by the target audience. Does Kevin Chesney write more relevant songs than Morissey? quite possibly. Is Dolly Parton a great artist? definitely. Are the artists who play at the Grizzly Rose better musicians than those who play here? absolutely, but just because its not your taste doesn’t make it crap.

But really this discussion is about something else: It’s not about whether certain C&W artists are worthier than others, it’s that fact that Chris’s musical perspective is shaped by his culture and social position. Years of listening to late-night radio 1 DJs produces a musical taste that’s hard to crack, and when placed in the Mid-West where all the points of reference are gone, the refuge is musical superiority.

Ah… Siouxies ‘Cities In Dust’ has just come on on my internet radio. That really is musically superior…

Cheers

Mark

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Bro. Bartleby 11.15.05 at 7:28 pm

When in doubt, seek the source. Most of our laws in America (and ethics) are based on Torah — Judaic Law. Theft is wrong, except when it can save a human life. God, through the words of the Torah, places utmost importance on the value of life. The commandments were not meant to take precedence over human life. If the observance or the performance of a Torah law would create a risk to a human life, then preservation of that life should take precedence over the observance of that Torah law. So, in the depths of winter in Madison, you find yourself lost and freezing, and you stumble upon a bicycle, then you may use that bicycle to save your own life without fear of breaking God’s commandments. Okay, I know, try explaining that to the Madison cops.
Shalom,
Bro. Bartleby

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bob mcmanus 11.15.05 at 10:17 pm

“Just because I still listen to Can’s ‘Soon over Babaluma’, it doesn’t stop me thinking that the Durannys ‘Rio’ is a way better album.”

This is the kind of comment that may force me to permanently abandon the blogosphere.

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Chris Bertram 11.15.05 at 10:59 pm

Mark, you are but a troll. I did not “characterize” an entire musical genre, I said the stuff broadcast on CMTW is crap. It is. You mention Dolly Parton and say she’s a great artist. As it happens, I agree. Also, as it happens, CMTV doesn’t show her very much. I would write “at all” but I’d have to subject myself to far to much of it to verify that.

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kadin 11.15.05 at 11:23 pm

I live in a small surfing town in New Zealand called Raglan. Here, all the people who steal stuff are wily. Because of this, I can leave most anything unattended, since everybody who would steal it knows that nobody would be stupid enough to just leave it unattended. Somebody must be watching it.

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Simstim 11.16.05 at 4:16 am

But Kadin, didn’t you know the criminal population of Raglan is a crucial demographic slice of CT’s readership? Or are you quadruple bluffing?

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Mark 11.16.05 at 10:02 am

Huh? You said
I did not “characterize” an entire musical genre, I said the stuff broadcast on CMTW is crap.

You also just said (paraphrase)
I haven’t actually watched a lot of CMTV

So…

Now lets assume that You’ve seen 10 hours of CMTV, and listened to 4 or 5 hours of off-center C&W artists. You feel confident enough to use the words Pap and Appalling based on that, I suggest politely that you dont understand the demographic and for that I’m a troll?. Jeez, talk about sensitive.

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harry b 11.16.05 at 10:18 am

mark,

Have you spent hours watching CMTV? Or listening to corporate country radio (or any other radio for that matter)? Are you willing to defend the pap as qualitatively equal to the kind of stuff Bob Harris plays? Or Dolly Parton? Ten hours is plenty of time to get a sense of what is actually playing on these stations because they repeat themselves endlessly. Garth Brooks is the macho equivalent of the Backstreet Boys. Alison Krause, sure,is something else (so, obviously, is Dolly Parton).
I see no reason to refrain from making qualitiative judgments just because they fly in the face popular opinion. Nor is this a case of someone elevating their own tastes to objective judgments. My tastes and my objective judgments are often out of alignment; I’d sooner listen to Peter Skellern than the Clash; I have no illusions that this reflects the objective reality of his artistic superiority, he’s obviously a lesser artist.

My daughter’s school starts at 7.41 (I’m not kidding). Its a 20 minute walk, but she leaves early because she is over-eager.

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Mark 11.16.05 at 11:39 am

I’m not getting my point across here really, and harry b seems to be getting close to ad hominem attacks Have you spent hours watching CMTV? Or listening to corporate country radio (or any other radio for that matter)?. To lay that to rest, uh yeah actually. I’ve lived in Denver for 10 years, and C&W and its associated culture is inescapable, the local joke is that KYGO plays both types of music, Country and Western and thats why its the number one corporate radio station in the state . My cable station has 3 C&W video channels, but my interweb thingy gives me a lifeline back to BBC radio. Personally speaking, I can’t stand the stuff, but in the same way that I despised the songs of Supertramp, but can sing along to ‘take a look at my girlfriend’, I know the words to ‘Redneck Woman’, because it was on everywhere. The people who live here who wear cowboy hats, check shirts and drive pickup trucks don’t think that what they listen to is pap, and who are we from another to continent to say so.
I’ve heard no quantitive argument to suggest that what Bob Harris plays is better than Garth Brooks, the only thing I see in this thread is the constant mantra ‘Obscure=Better’. So give me some pointers here:

1. Does what Bob Harris plays in the UK, but nobody listens to here, better reflect the lives and values of the people who live here, but listen to mainstream?

a. If you answer yes, explain why society does not embrace the music that reflects itself, and rationalize this in terms of the punk movement.

b. If you answer no, explain how popular music reflects society, how an outsider might not recognize the cultural touchstones, and rationalize this in terms of the punk movement.

2. Somebody , objectively quantify ‘Musical Pap’. Any reference to ‘Whistle Test’, ‘John Peel Sessions’ and pre-electric Dylan instantly disqualifies.

Hoping to enrich my musical education

Mark

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Chris Bertram 11.16.05 at 11:46 am

the only thing I see in this thread is the constant mantra ‘Obscure=Better

1. Until this very comment, only one person has used the word “obscure”.

2. Emmylou Harris is not obscure by any standards, and Steve Earle and Gillian Welch arguably aren’t either.

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soubzriquet 11.16.05 at 1:13 pm

Actually, Mark, you have it pretty much backwards `obscure = better’ is laughable. Of course `well known music = good music’ is also laughable. I also suspect that you are abusing the term `obscure’, but will leave that.

Most of the music produced isn’t well known because it isn’t very good at all. Some very well known music isn’t very good either, but on the whole it tends to be ok, somewhat in a lowest common denominator way. There is a lot of stuff out there in the populuar music sphere (whether in C&W, hip-hop, rock, reggae, whatever) that boils down to medium talented [1] people doing it by the numbers.

Now the *interesting* thing is that while some of the best music being produced (in any of these genres) is well known, a *lot* of it isn’t.

[1] here I mean, of course, medium talent for professional touring (popular) musicians, which is a lot better than your average kitchen musicians and random weekend bands, but not compared to, say, your average symphony player….

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Mark 11.16.05 at 3:47 pm

Agreed, perhaps oversimplifying, but lets look at some of these artists by checking on Google
Emmylou Harris [+ BBC -CMT 91,500][-BBC +CMT 46,800]
Steve Earle [+ BBC -CMT 202,000][-BBC +CMT 44,400]
Gillian Welch [+ BBC -CMT 77,100][-BBC +CMT 18,600]

Garth Brooks [+BBC -CMT 107,000][-BBC +CMT 75,300]

So pseudo-scientifically analyzing these numbers, using Garth as a control of an artist well known in both environments,
Emmylou is classic – Everyone knows her, so she doesn’t get a lot of rotation on CMT, and she doesn’t have a brand new album.
Gillian Welch is a lesser known artist, first album in 1996, but as female artists go, she holds up well.
Steve Earle appears to be the only artist who appears to have a substantially better ‘Bob Harris’ audience (Using my patented Garth Quotient) than CMT, but wait! Steve Earle isn’t off rotation, in fact if you check todays schedules on CMT, you’ll see he’s a featured artist. So your choice: authentic artist/mindless pap.

But what to make of an artist like Sara Evans, who actually has a negative garth quotient(Mentioned more in conjunction with CMT than BBC). But Bob Harris Likes her. So again your choice: authentic artist/mindless pap.

So maybe I’ll argue it differently: What you hear on BBC isn’t more or less authentic than CMT: It’s exactly the same….

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Mark 11.16.05 at 3:48 pm

sorry about the strikethrough on the text above, didn’t realize the markup would do that…

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harry b 11.16.05 at 4:04 pm

I wasn’t meaning to be ad hominem: I was asking you to reflect on your experience of corporate music TV and radio, and implying that if you did said reflection you’d think that 10 hours of watching/listening really was enough to get a representative sample of what a station is playing. Unlike Radio 2 (but not unlike Radios 1,3 and 4, so this is not a defence of the BBC).

My request for a defence of the quality was just that. I think the stuff Bob Harris plays is pretty good; I’d like to see why I ought to think that what seems like pap on corporate C&W radio is pretty good too. I’m willing to be persuaded (it took me a while to appreciate Dolly Parton’s qualities; I hated smoked salmon as a kid, etc).

But the equation of quality with reflecting the lives and values of the consumers won’t do (if that’s what you meant to do). The Sex Pistols were thrilling because they did *not* reflect my life and values (among other reasons); Mozart, Beethoven, Steve Earle, Loudon Wainwright III, Joni Mitchell; none of them reflect my life or values. Any music that did would be dull as ditchwater. Rather like Garth Brooks, in fact!

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American Citizen 11.16.05 at 4:49 pm

I can’t believe we’re all swimming in the spew of Nickleback and Creed (58).

I’m going to be grossed out all day long now.

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Mark 11.16.05 at 5:24 pm

Harry
But the equation of quality with reflecting the lives and values of the consumers won’t do . I didn’t invent that, it is a well-explored and accepted position Google Search on subject
The problem I see it, and this is likely unresolvable, is the desire of the music lover to extrapolate their subjective preferences in music, (You like Steve Earle, ergo Garth Brooks is crap) into an objective discussion, without being able to explain why (viz previous posts). I can’t agree with you that Garth is crap or dull. I would never buy or listen (deliberately) to his music because I don’t connect to what he has to say or the musical medium in which he says it, but there are millions who do, so who am I to say? I can’t objectively define Garths crapiness, and I don’t believe anyone else on this thread can either, which makes me think he’s not actually crap or dull.
I’ve lived too long as a foreigner to believe that the musical tastes I acquired from listening to John Peel and Annie Nightingales sunday evening show are the only valid ones, but that they are simply a start point from which I perceive the music of other cultures, and indeed C&W is music of another culture, no less than say Rai NB

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engels 11.16.05 at 5:57 pm

The people who live here who wear cowboy hats, check shirts and drive pickup trucks don’t think that what they listen to is pap, and who are we from another to continent to say so?

People with taste in music, perhaps?

I can’t objectively define Garths crapiness, and I don’t believe anyone else on this thread can either, which makes me think he’s not actually crap or dull.

Mark – Can you “objectively define” why horse shit stinks? I can’t, but I’m sure as hell not going to eat it. Which I’d sooner do than listen to Garth Brooks.

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Carlos 11.16.05 at 6:00 pm

Hm. I saw Steve Earle in Madison way back when, at least two detoxes ago. (His, not mine.) Saw John Zorn, Sun Ra, and Liz Phair there too.

It’s not a very country music sort of place. Wisconsin in general isn’t. What do you expect from a state settled by socialist German refugees?

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Mark 11.16.05 at 6:11 pm

Engels,
Can I ‘objectively define’ why horse shit stinks? Holy Crap of course. But can you tell me why your taste in music is better than that of the 60 million+ people who have bought Garth albums, of course you can’t.

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engels 11.16.05 at 6:19 pm

Mark – You are implying that before the science of Biochemistry became sufficiently advanced, people were not entitled to say that horse shit stank. Sorry, but to me that smells like BS…

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soubzriquet 11.16.05 at 7:42 pm

Mark, the idea that popularity is equivalent to quality is an old one, but not a particularly good one. Of course as in all art, there is an aspect of subjective preference, but to suggest that is all there is too it is naive. It is also wrong to suggest that two peoples subjective judgements are equally valid, regardless of a difference in experience.

I really enjoy many types of music when they are done well, and can at least appreciate any style of music done well (but might not choose to listen to it). I have vastly more experience than the average top-40/hip-hop/C&W/whatever radio station target, am a musician of sorts, and spend a lot more time than average listening, *especially* listening for its own sake, rather than background. Support for this statment? This year, for example, I bought more music and went to more concerts than many (most?) people do in a decade, if not a lifetime. Hence my conclusions about music both subjectively and objectively are not the same as the average (however meaningful we can make that). I certainly don’t reject music because it is popular (see previous comments) but mere popularity won’t convince me it is any good, either: and I have a lot of material to contrast it with to make sense of this.

A lot of popular music is intentionally derivitive and formulaic, and it is marketed in very particular ways. In this there is a (ok, probably weak) analogy with fast food: the product is cheap, easily available, and you wont have to expend any effort or intelligence on it. However, it is objectively inferior to many other available meals (some of which will require effort on your part).

Come to think of it, there must be reasons why the intersection between major literary prizes and bestsellers lists is small, too, no?

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harry b 11.17.05 at 10:20 am

Mark — well, I explicitly said I wasn’t doing that, and gave examples in which my tastes and judgments diverge. Sure, people have this tendency, just as they have the tendency to project their self-interest onto morality. I resist it in both cases, because I’m capable of a certain amount of self-reflection and consideration of the interests of others and external reasons. There’s nothing special about me — anyone who isn’t a sociopath has that capacity, most excercise it to some extent. It matter much more that we do it with morality than with music, so I don’t especially care that other people confuse their tastes with objective features of aesthetic value. We all probably do it to soem extent. But Chris is not doing it, and it was insulting of you to assume he was.

I’ve listened, in fact, to a fair bit of Garth Brooks. I’ve also listened to a lot of Bob Marley. I find them equally grating and unpleasant to hear. But Garth really has nothing going for him — after his death no-one will listen to him. Marley is different — not to my taste any more than Brooks is. Do you really think there is nothing but taste here? Can you really think of no examples of one artist being superior to another regardelss of taste. Gareth Gates and Bob Dylan? The Beatles and the Backstreet Boys? If so, that’s fine, and I don’t have time or energy to argue it further.

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