How Things Seep In

by Kieran Healy on December 12, 2007

A while ago, reflecting on approaching geezerhood, I said:

Whenever I teach an undergraduate class, I ask the students what’s the earliest major news event they can remember. When I started teaching at Arizona, most students could remember the Challenger disaster. Then it was the fall of the Berlin Wall. Then the first Gulf War. Then Bill Clinton’s first-term election. At the moment it is the Oklahoma City bombing. Soon it will be the death of Princess Diana.

But this isn’t just a kids-these-days complaint. Today’s college freshmen probably don’t remember much about politics before President Bush, and the war as been going on for most of their teenage years. Combine that with the administration’s fine line in disinformational BS and, as Rob remarks in a comment elsewhere, this is what you get:

I have now received three (3) student papers that discuss Iraq’s attack on the Twin Towers on 9/11. All three papers mention it as an aside to another point. I’ve had two papers on the virtue of forgiveness that argue that if we had just forgiven Iraq for the 9/11 attacks, we wouldn’t be at war right now. I just read a paper on the problem of evil which asked why God allowed “the Iraq’s” to attack us on 9/11. The thing that upsets me most here is that the the students don’t just believe that that Iraq was behind 9/11. This is a big fact in their minds, that leaps out at them, whenever they think about the state of the world.

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That’s How the Blight Gets In « The Opinion Mill
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1

robertdfeinman 12.12.07 at 4:10 pm

People have believed that a white bearded guy handed two stone tablets to another guy in the desert for 2000 years.

Are you surprised that ideologically driven propaganda works, or just that it works so quickly?

2

abb1 12.12.07 at 4:13 pm

Empirical proof of the fallaciousness of the Occam’s razor principle.

3

P O'Neill 12.12.07 at 4:22 pm

It does make me wonder why Republicans think it’s such a great idea to hark back to the glory days of Reagan and Maggie. Reagan became president before a sizable chunk of the young electorate was even born. Rudy’s strategists are bigger geezers than we are.

On the other hand, a new generation learns of the greatness of Led Zeppelin so it’s not all bad.

4

mcd 12.12.07 at 4:22 pm

May be related to the “just world” theory in social psychology, where people think that people always get “what they deserve”. And so victims must have done something to bring their fate upon themselves.

5

mpowell 12.12.07 at 4:32 pm

Here’s the question on my mind:

When you inform these kids in no uncertain terms that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 (and I am hoping that you take time out to do this – I think this would be one of the most important things you could teach them), do they believe you?

6

Josh R. 12.12.07 at 4:37 pm

That makes me want to cry.

Was the word wrong written in big capital letters in red next to the aside with an indication to turn over the page for a curt two line summation of who actually drove those planes into the Towers? (By which, I mean, Dick Cheney?)

7

Uncle Kvetch 12.12.07 at 4:46 pm

The thing that upsets me most here is that the the students don’t just believe that that Iraq was behind 9/11. This is a big fact in their minds, that leaps out at them, whenever they think about the state of the world.

Mission Accomplished. On to Tehran.

8

vanya 12.12.07 at 4:57 pm

On the other hand, a new generation learns of the greatness of Led Zeppelin so it’s not all bad.

Actually, those of us who were adolescents in Zep’s heyday remember that they were considered by most people with taste and discernment to be a crap pretentious band that had become a joke by 1971. And their biggest fans tended to be obnoxious morons. Imagine Korn being feted as rock gods in 30 years, and you’ll know how amazed serious rock fans in their 50s are that Zeppelin is now somehow placed in the same ranks as the Who and the Stones.

9

jake 12.12.07 at 5:07 pm

A handful of student papers is the surest way to gauge the mindset of every student available. Now that we know our descendants are lobotomized robots, it’s time to take action. It’s time to ship the wee ones to an unspecified island, where their misguidedness shall do no harm.

10

Kev McVeigh 12.12.07 at 5:07 pm

1 I clearly remember the moon landings, I wrote about them at school. I was almost 8 yrs old when Gene Cernan left the moon for the last time. Why do some students now not recall things from when they were that age? Because we are no longer encouraged to think about things, knowledge is dangerous, ‘clever’ has become a put-down.

2. I assume those papers got an automatic fail?

3. Vanya, I certainly wouldn’t rank Zep with The Who or The Stones, they were much better than either of those self-indulgent and pompous bands.

11

adiddy 12.12.07 at 5:28 pm

Why do you have some many students talking about God? Creepy.

12

Kieran Healy 12.12.07 at 5:28 pm

Apart from Stairway to Heaven I don’t think I could identify a single LZ song if I heard it. My knowledge of that era in music comes entirely from This is Spinal Tap.

A handful of student papers is the surest way to gauge the mindset of every student available

You know, some of us round here understand the difference between a representative sample and a suggestive anecdote.

13

raj 12.12.07 at 5:32 pm

As I have inquired elsewhere (Kevin Drum’s blog), do Uni instructors not believe that they should give failing grades to their students?

14

Jeff 12.12.07 at 5:33 pm

No offense, but where does your responsibility lie in this? I taught an intro to global politics class at Seattle University two years ago. I’m pretty sure, since the Iraq war and terrorism were discussed to some extent, that none of my students, freshmen to seniors, believed that the Iraqis had anything to do with 9/11. More important, perhaps, I made sure that they knew this and the issue figured in both their terms papers and the final.

15

Kieran Healy 12.12.07 at 5:35 pm

Why do you have some many students talking about God? Creepy.

do Uni instructors not believe that they should give failing grades to their students?

No offense, but where does your responsibility lie in this?

Guys, I am quoting a comment linked to in the post. This isn’t my class, and they’re not my students.

16

bleh 12.12.07 at 5:37 pm

@8
haha

17

Grand Moff Texan 12.12.07 at 5:39 pm

Somehow, the subject of ObL came up in my class early this semester and, as an aside, I said that I imagined everyone in the room would want to “kill the son-of-a-bitch themselves,” and carried on with whatever it was I was saying (I think we were talking about capital punishment).

There was an audible gasp, which further inquiries established that their reaction was not due to my choice of words but to the offhand suggestion that any of them would be willing to kill the man.

This class of first-years would have been twelve or thirteen on 9/11/01.
.

18

ajay 12.12.07 at 5:41 pm

17: excellent. The infamously short memory of the American teenager starts to work in the right direction!

19

Cryptic Ned 12.12.07 at 5:43 pm

Comments 1 and 11 are stupid. Also, it should be made clear that this is not a history class Rob is teaching and therefore he bears little responsibility.

20

dsquared 12.12.07 at 5:44 pm

Actually, those of us who were adolescents in Zep’s heyday remember that they were considered by most people with taste and discernment to be a crap pretentious band that had become a joke by 1971

that doesn’t sound like much of a heyday. I’m pretty sure that in their heyday they were more popular than that. That’s why they called it a “heyday”.

21

P O'Neill 12.12.07 at 5:47 pm

From the FT today:

When the Financial Times, far-sighted as ever, published a rave review, Robert Plant was delighted: it meant that his father, a regular reader, would forgive him for not becoming a chartered accountant

22

Christopher Phelps 12.12.07 at 5:49 pm

If teachers are responsible for what their students write, we are all in big, big trouble.

I just read a long essay on a final exam about how the American Revolution was fought because North and South could not work out their differences. I’m sorry, I am just not taking responsibility for that.

23

zadfrack 12.12.07 at 5:50 pm

Hey Kieran,

Perhaps you could change the link to point to Rob’s Blogspot blog instead of to the Unfogged thread.

Poor Unfogged seems to be crushed under the weight of visitors from here and Washington Monthly. I suspect Blogspot can handle the traffic better.

24

Kieran Healy 12.12.07 at 5:54 pm

Done. I’m sorry I helped break Unfogged.

25

zadfrack 12.12.07 at 5:59 pm

14: Rob teaches philosophy, not history.

26

John Emerson 12.12.07 at 6:04 pm

Eichmann was “sorry” too, Kieran.

27

Christopher Phelps 12.12.07 at 6:05 pm

I teach history, and believe me, you can still get doozies and not be responsible.

They can write about the South’s “succession from the government,” or about “salves and masters,” or whatever.

Teachers can’t be held responsible for student errors, not even a pattern of student errors.

28

Grand Moff Texan 12.12.07 at 6:08 pm

Maybe my students didn’t see ObL as sufficiently loathsome enough to kill because they think “the Iraq’s” were responsible for 9/11?
.

29

rea 12.12.07 at 6:16 pm

Apart from Stairway to Heaven I don’t think I could identify a single LZ song if I heard it.

You sound dazed and confused to me, Keiran. Has it been a long time since you rock and rolled?

30

JakeB 12.12.07 at 6:23 pm

Yes, I sort of wish “Black Shuck” was called “Black Dog 2.0″.

31

rob helpy-chalk 12.12.07 at 6:34 pm

Why do you have some many students talking about God? Creepy.

I teach philosophy. It is difficult to talk to most Americans about ethics and the meaning of life without talking about God.

do Uni instructors not believe that they should give failing grades to their students?

Trust me, I will be failing plenty of students this term. Not any of these students, though. In all three cases, the remark came up as an aside or an example in the student’s paper. Nothing huge in their argument rested on it. I wrote a factual clarification in the margin and moved on.

No offense, but where does your responsibility lie in this?

If I were teaching history or politics, it would totally be my fault. But I wasn’t talking about these issues. The students raised them.

Thats part of what made these remarks weird. The students weren’t just misinformed, the misinformation was in the front of their minds. It came to them whenever they needed an example of “evil” or “forgiveness.

32

rob helpy-chalk 12.12.07 at 6:37 pm

When you inform these kids in no uncertain terms that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 (and I am hoping that you take time out to do this – I think this would be one of the most important things you could teach them), do they believe you?

We’ll see. The first two comments were in rough drafts. The final drafts are in now, and I can see how they were corrected.

33

Michael Bérubé 12.12.07 at 6:40 pm

I clearly remember the moon landings, I wrote about them at school.

You remember wrong. The moon landings were staged, of course, by Led Zeppelin. In Iraq.

34

The Modesto Kid 12.12.07 at 6:40 pm

Comment #1 makes reference to a piece of mythology considerably older than 2000 years, which is the amount of time for which people have believed a younger bearded guy absolved some subset of humanity of its inherent sins by being executed unjustly.

35

JP Yogi 12.12.07 at 6:41 pm

Yeah, no one listened to Led Zeppelin back in the day – they were too popular.

36

Xanthippas 12.12.07 at 6:49 pm

The only question really is, are college students stupider than they used to be, or have they always been this stupid?

37

Christopher Phelps 12.12.07 at 6:50 pm

If I were teaching history or politics, it would totally be my fault.

We historians have always suspected that philosophers reason poorly.

38

Brett Bellmore 12.12.07 at 6:54 pm

The thing is, I’m a bit unclear how this gets attributed to Bush administration disinformation, when the administration wasn’t spreading this particular bit of BS.

Perhaps you can’t blame a student for being taken in by pervasive disinformation, but they ought to at least get the disinformation right, shouldn’t they?

39

Bill 12.12.07 at 6:58 pm

And let’s not forget another recent example: Dana Perino (!!!) confusing the Cuban Missile Crisis and the Bay of Pigs incident……

40

roger 12.12.07 at 7:12 pm

The student’s shock about killing OBL is part of a good trend, I think – American kids are just gentler than they were a generation ago. The downside of that trend is that they are also more passive. I think the constituency for bomb bomb bomb x, or kill kill kill y, may be shrinking to the 35-55 year old male set. I wonder, how many 18-30 year olds listen, for example, to hate radio? I bet Rush’s audience is getting long in the tooth. And since we know that at least a third of the population still believes there is a 9/11 saddam hussein link, it seems like the amount of students who assume it is below the average – although, of course, the subject has not, perhaps, come up enough to tell if that is right.

41

rea 12.12.07 at 7:13 pm

when the administration wasn’t spreading this particular bit of BS

You’re correct–you won’t find a single example of anyone in the adminstration badmouthing Led Zeppelin.

On the subject of Iraqi involvement in 9/11, however, you’re mistaken. See, e. g.:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3119676.stm

42

Thers 12.12.07 at 7:24 pm

You remember wrong. The moon landings were staged, of course, by Led Zeppelin. In Iraq.

Precisely. Which is why it is so crucial for the cause of Freedom that Jimmy Page gets bombed as soon as possible.

43

Colin Danby 12.12.07 at 7:44 pm

I had a paper the other week in which a student claimed to have gained insight into “both sides of the Civil War” from living in both North and South Carolina as a child… Of course it’s possible the student lived in Chapel Hill.

Re #10 no, you don’t fail a student for knowing a wrong thing, though if you are teaching a class on that thing or if the assignment was to research that thing then you raise an eyebrow.

How to teach the habit of checking, of looking stuff up before you write it down, the habit that Mr. Bellmore appears not to have acquired?

44

Scott McLemee 12.12.07 at 7:49 pm

Jimmy Page is probably getting bombed right this minute.

45

elbujo 12.12.07 at 7:53 pm

NONE of my students believe that Iraq was behind the attacks on 9/11. They are more working class/big-city kids. Also, East Coast kids. They know a surprising amount about the war. They often tell me things I didn’t know.

I hate to say but being from the Southwest I’d say that suburban kids in that area don’t read the newspaper very much. However, they do represent the mainstream of the U.S. There are a lot more of them than there are the kinds of students I have.

If you taught at U.C. Berkeley I’d suspect you’d also have a different experience. Unless undergrads have changed since I was there.

46

Kiwanda 12.12.07 at 8:00 pm

a new generation learns of the greatness of Led Zeppelin so it’s not all bad.

In a hundred years, Led Zeppelin will be forgotten. Elvis and the Beatles will be forgotten. But “Louie Louie” and “Wild Thing” will live on.

when the administration wasn’t spreading this particular bit of BS

Well, not only the Bush administration, lately, also the Republan candidates.

47

rea 12.12.07 at 8:07 pm

I had a paper the other week in which a student claimed to have gained insight into “both sides of the Civil War” from living in both North and South Carolina as a child

Western North Carolina was, in fact, rather pro-union.

48

MNPundit 12.12.07 at 8:21 pm

College Freshman were 12 in 2001? Good God. I was a college sophomore in 2001.

Eh, if you have a good life as a kid everything kind of blurs together until you hit the point where you start thinking about sex all the time–that is, puberty. Tbh my first real memories are of 41, though I did get the tail end of the “Godless Communists Hordes!” as I remember having that idea as a tyke.

49

Randy Paul 12.12.07 at 8:23 pm

Apart from Stairway to Heaven I don’t think I could identify a single LZ song if I heard it

Kieran,

Could you tell me what a bustle in your hedgerow or a springclean for the may queen is?

50

Cryptic Ned 12.12.07 at 8:46 pm

I hate to say but being from the Southwest I’d say that suburban kids in that area don’t read the newspaper very much. However, they do represent the mainstream of the U.S. There are a lot more of them than there are the kinds of students I have.

The kids in question are in the Rust Belt, not the Southwest.

51

Fats Durston 12.12.07 at 8:49 pm

Western North Carolina was, in fact, rather pro-union.

Which makes the surplus of stars n bars and “If you ain’t a rebel, you ain’t shit” [hooray? I’m not shit?] bumper stickers there ironic. (Not to say that people *must* have the same politics as their ancestors or geographic predecessors…)

I’ve had at least one student (in his 40s) remark on the 9/11 Iraqi attack in some argument about the Second World War. I put a red line through that sentence and a small explanation in the margin.

There was also this from a twenty-something in Western Civ I:
This [Peloponnesian-Persian conflict] reminds me a lot of the United States and the war we are currently in, some of the same ancestors the Athenians fought. They were then called the Persians, but are no [sic] referred to as Iraqi’s [sic] or terrorists [sic]. The United States well [sic] actually think about what they are doing and survive the battle by taking aim and shooting while most Iraqi’s [sic] believe that Ala [sic] will carry there [sic] bullets to the enemy if Ala wishes him dead.

Weirdly enough, this was written before the film 300 came out.

52

Martin James 12.12.07 at 8:54 pm

I think the fault lies with the English teachers who are always harping on not generalizing. If they would have paid more attention to the general case and just said “them feriners” that attacked the twin towers they wouldn’t be in the same fix.

Interesting how few people talk about the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon compared to the twin towers. Must be because Americans are pro-business and anti-government.

53

texas escapee 12.12.07 at 9:06 pm

At a very conservative private college in Texas where I used to teach, one of the other professors used to tell a story that took place around the time the current war started (2004). One of his students argued in class that we wouldn’t need to be invading Iraq if that awful Clinton hadn’t chickened out and ended the first Iraq war before going all the way to Baghdad and taking out Saddam. The professor had to point out that it wasn’t Clinton who was president during the first war; it was actually Bush Sr. Telling this story always made him very sad about the state of revised history among his undergrads.

54

John Emerson 12.12.07 at 9:20 pm

The Led Zeppelin snobbery was generational. Rolling Stones types (me) were 5+ years older than Zep types. A youth culture generation seems to be about 5-10 years.

As time went on I grew to appreciate Zep. In particular, everyone should listen to “Trampled Underfoot”.

55

global yokel 12.12.07 at 9:45 pm

Dana Perino (press secretary to President Bush) has admitted that she didn’t know what the ‘Cuban Missle Crisis’ was all about.

Oy….

56

Z 12.12.07 at 9:45 pm

You remember wrong. The moon landings were staged, of course, by Led Zeppelin. In Iraq.

You’re correct—you won’t find a single example of anyone in the adminstration badmouthing Led Zeppelin.

Man, this is an hilarious thread.

57

wissen 12.12.07 at 9:57 pm

If you say something enough times it becomes true. QED.

58

Brett Bellmore 12.12.07 at 10:17 pm

Rea, you do understand the difference between asserting that “Country X occasionally gives aid to the Axis powers” and “Country X was behind the attack on Pearl Harbor”, don’t you?

I think maybe this tactic is deserving of it’s own latin description as a logical fallacy:

1. X makes specific claim Y. (Saddam permitted al Quaeda to maintain training camps within his territory.)

2. Transform the specific claim into a general claim that wasn’t made. (Saddam and al Quaeda were joined at the hip.)

3. Prove that a quite different specific claim, Z, which falls under that generality is false. (Saddam didn’t organize the 9-11 attack.)

4. X is a liar!

59

Chris Williams 12.12.07 at 10:33 pm

Finally, someone did some actual research into where American kids learn their history, and to what extent:

http://aera.net/uploadedFiles/Publications/Journals/American_Educational_Research_Journal/4401/AERJ_44-1_40-76.pdf

They used Vietnam as a case study, with interesting results.

It’s worth a read – I’ve been sending the URL to a good fraction of the historians I know. But that’s partly because I have a professional interest in this topic.

60

Katherine 12.12.07 at 10:34 pm

And yet, somehow current college students and a not inconsiderable proportion of the American public thinks that Iraq was responsible for 9/11. By accident. Out of nowhere. How did that happen?

61

vanya 12.12.07 at 10:44 pm

John,

the Zep thing wasn’t just generational – it was a class thing. If you were a high school kid who liked Zeppelin in the mid-70s, you were possibly a jock or, more likely, a working class kid headed for a job right after graduation. You were certainly homophobic, possibly beat your girlfriend and probably voted for Reagan in 1980. It was not considered cool in that era for most high school kids with liberal views or college aspirations to be into Zeppelin, they were one step above Black Sabbath on the stupidity scale. Then in the late 80s as a reaction against punk, and probably people’s older siblings or even parents, cynical hipsters suddenly decided Zeppelin was cool. In retrospect it still hard to see what exactly was cool about a bunch of studio musicians who formed a band mainly to cash in on the hard rock trend started by other bands, ripped off blues riffs, raped young girls for kicks, and were little better than Kiss in terms of playing to the lowest common denominator of their fan base. Not surprising that a country that would elevate Zeppelin to pantheon status would think Iraqis attacked on 9/11. (Tellingly in the UK no one seems to give a shit about the Zeppelin reunion concert, LZ is still uncool in the UK – now if the Smiths or the Jam got together that might get peoples attention).

62

P O'Neill 12.12.07 at 11:21 pm

We’re going to need a bigger thread.

For Led Zeppelin.

63

JP Stormcrow 12.12.07 at 11:36 pm

We’re going to need a bigger thread.

They are an interesting marker along several different dimensions. (And it varies from phase to phase in the band’s history.)

Plus, I have the most wonderful proof that LZ is the most awesome band evah, which this comment thread is too small to contain.

64

Theron 12.13.07 at 12:16 am

It wasn’t all that long ago that many Americans thought we fought the Soviets in WWII, and this certainly showed up on student exams. The current crop of students has little or no knowledge of the USSR (or at least, mine don’t) so they don’t tend to make this mistake. However, in every batch of exams there are two or three who confuse Hitler with Stalin, at least to the point of switching their names (that is, they don’t tend to mix up details of each man’s career, they just can’t remember which one was German and which one was Soviet).

65

garymar 12.13.07 at 12:36 am

I remember reading a Creem magazine review of the latest Led Zeppelin (early 70s), and the critic metaphorically shaking his head in admiration and saying, “Led Zeppelin brings home the bacon again”.

Of course when I was 15, I thought the height of rock music was the MC5 because they were associated with John Sinclair and the White Panther movement. We laughed at bands who performed mere music. They were all so, plastic, man.

66

SG 12.13.07 at 12:48 am

I wish I was in a band that was “little better than KISS”…

67

Brett Bellmore 12.13.07 at 1:00 am

“Out of nowhere. How did that happen?”

I believe somebody once said, “Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity.” The idea that you need an over-arching conspiracy to explain students making absurd mistakes is paranoid.

68

stogie 12.13.07 at 1:03 am

Chris Williams:

Thanks for the link to the paper on historical consciousness. I’m working on a novel that explores that topic, is there anything else that you’d recommend in that vein?

69

Steven Poole 12.13.07 at 1:06 am

ripped off blues riffs

OMG, at least the Stones never did that.

LZ is still uncool in the UK

That’s not really true.

PS I decided Led Zep were cool in the mid-1980s, not the late 1980s, and in the UK too. Do I get a prize?

70

derek 12.13.07 at 1:15 am

America invaded Vietnam after the Vietnamese attack on Pearl Harbor.

I think the fault lies with the English teachers who are always harping on not generalizing. If they would have paid more attention to the general case and just said “them feriners” that attacked the twin towers they wouldn’t be in the same fix.

If English teachers had paid more attention to the subjunctive mood, their students wouldn’t write things like “if they would have” so much.

71

grackle 12.13.07 at 1:40 am

I always get Led Zeppelin mixed up with Fleetwood Mac.

72

Down and Out of Sài Gòn 12.13.07 at 1:45 am

Think what you like about LZ, but I bet they’d never say that Iraq was behind 9/11. Even Bonzo – were he still alive and binging on coke and vodka.

73

greensmile 12.13.07 at 3:26 am

boggles the mind.
I would have been surprised but, having watched the move “The Ground Truth” I find that when battle and the other gritty realities of being in Iraq have disabused the soldiers of every other lie they were told, that Iraq somehow was responsible for the attacks on 9/11 was still in their heads.

Heads aren’t all they are cracked up to be, I guess.

74

parse 12.13.07 at 4:02 am

#61, I was a high school kid who liked Zeppelin in the mid-70s; I was possibly a nerd or, more likely, a honor role kid headed for college right after graduation. I was certainly gay, didn’t have a girlfriend (or boyfriend) and didn’t vote in 1980, aready disgusted with both major parties.

75

BillCinSD 12.13.07 at 4:08 am

Have the Rolling Stones been sued and lost for plagiarism? LZ has several times — Arc Music, Willie Dixon, Howlin’ Wolf did, Jake Holmes and Ritchie Valens estate could have. Plus, they covered a traditional blues song (In my time of dying) and listed themselves as the song creators.

76

Joshua Holmes 12.13.07 at 4:33 am

ripped off blues riffs

I hate to burst your bubble, but there wasn’t an original blues song written after 1935 or so, arguably earlier. And I like the blues.

77

snuh 12.13.07 at 5:19 am

I believe somebody once said, “Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity.” The idea that you need an over-arching conspiracy to explain students making absurd mistakes is paranoid.

i don’t really have a dog in this fight, but i would be curious to see if bush has made any major speeches about iraq where there was no mention or allusion to 9/11.

78

Belle Waring 12.13.07 at 5:26 am

if you all enjoy going around pretending that led zeppelin doesn’t rock, or that the rolling stones deserve praise for the extent to which they did not rip off old blues songs, I guess I’m not going to stand in your way.

79

vanya 12.13.07 at 6:36 am

ripped off blues riffs

Everyone does, the point really is, as billcinsd points out, Zep were the only band clumsy and stupid enough to actually get sued. And lots of bands “rock” – AC/DC, Metallica, early Judas Priest, early Queen, ZZ Top, Bad Country, early Rush (especially Bytor and the Snowdog) etc. Once upon a time “rocking” for rocking’s sake was very uncool in music critic circles, now the pendulum seems to have swung in the other direction. It’s probably a healthy thing to satiate one’s inner fascist with atavistic white boy frat rock every so often, but at least have the common sense to be ashamed about that in public.

80

dr ngo 12.13.07 at 8:18 am

True story. Someone I knew was teaching peace studies at a midwestern (US) university in the 1970s, and came to a session on atomic weapons. So she asked the class: “Has the atomic bomb ever actually been used in war?”

Silence.

After a while, one student very tentatively raised her hand and said: “Yes?”

“Fine. Who dropped the bomb.”

Silence.

“Japan?”

81

bad Jim 12.13.07 at 8:30 am

Around 1972 a friend of mine noted a strong correlation between listening to Led Zeppelin and using American flag rolling papers. We didn’t approve of either.

82

abb1 12.13.07 at 8:34 am

The US defeated Nazi Germany.

Apart from Stairway to Heaven I don’t think I could identify a single LZ song if I heard it.

You should try Kashmir; it’s a beautiful thing, man.

83

bad Jim 12.13.07 at 8:47 am

Sorry, it was 1971, and we preferred Hot Tuna and ZigZag wheatstraw.

It strikes me as bizarre that anyone’s historical knowledge would be bounded by their own lifetimes. I was born in 1951 and throughout my childhood I was surrounded by the recent memory of The War (WWII). Some substantial fraction of the TV shows I watched, as a kid or even a teenager, dealt with that vast shared drama. For that matter, I went through college expecting to collect a draft notice along with my diploma.

History was a little more palpable back then.

84

mijnheer 12.13.07 at 9:02 am

rea @ 41 is quite right. The repeated linking of Iraq with terrorism and 9/11 by various members of the administration makes it clear that this was not off-the-cuff imprecision but a deliberate tactic. It worked.

85

novakant 12.13.07 at 9:05 am

This thread makes me feel young ;). That said, having to explain to a friend less than 10 years younger than myself recently who Terence Trent D’Arby, Yazoo and Heaven 17 were, made me feel rather old :(.

86

Chris Williams 12.13.07 at 9:11 am

Stogie @68:

Pretty much all of what I know is on the website of this radio series that I advise on, ‘The Things We Forgot to Remember':
http://www.open2.net/thingsweforgot/index.html

There’s more coming up soon: 4 episodes of series 3 are transmitting from Dec 24th, and also some more half-decent podcasts will be going up at the same time.

By the way, if (a) you like it and (b) you’re British, then you ought to go and sign this petition here:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ELQFunding/

because otherwise it’s a near-certainty that it will be cut, since the UK government is about to seriously maim the Open University.

87

Chris Williams 12.13.07 at 9:22 am

Steve @ 69:

Yeah, me too. I discovered LZ in 1983ish. Perhaps if I’d known that they weren’t right on I might not have liked them so much. But between the ages of about 14 and 16 my political conscience took a long holiday, allowing me to be testosterone boy to my heart’s content.

88

Chris Williams 12.13.07 at 9:28 am

PS – sorry Stogie, I forgot to add that Kim Stanley Robinson’s novel _Icehenge_ also has some useful things to say about history and memory. Simon Schama’s semi-fictional pomo romp _Dead Certainties_ might perhaps help you a little but it’s not my cup of tea.

89

Chris Bertram 12.13.07 at 10:40 am

Time to reference the sociobiological explanation for Led Zeppelin again:

http://tinyurl.com/287qld

90

Roy Belmont 12.13.07 at 11:17 am

The thing to remember about “Stairway To Heaven”‘s that Plant’s on record as testifying it was his attempt to write an “Incredible String Band” song. That is a thing of importance.
Originality as concerns blues and rock and roll isn’t all that germane most of the time. The money is though. For a lot of (mature, black) blues guys who played and paid dues to get what little professional standing they had to have to stand and watch young white kids work a (partially grasped, dimly felt, inexpertly played sans nuance) riff they clearly got from said blues guys and make uncounted thousands of relatively easy dollars from it without kicking down or at least passing some attention back to the (immediate anyway) source, which could then be turned into potentially remunerating publicity etc., was hard. The industrial racism in that began to disintegrate only in the 70’s, and not all at once.
Still, there is no pure (contemporary) source for the blues other than the musicians who play the blues, or recordings of those who did. It’s the freeze-frame of the recording that locks it down and commodifies it. Nailing the truly appropriate beneficiaries of appreciation for what comes down, absent the artificial ownerism of copyright legalities, would be a boundless undertaking. I don’t know but I imagine at some point ZZTop would have been confronted with John Lee Hooker’s certified mastery of what they were delivering. Nothing around infringement in a legal sense, but how cool various individuals are. Absent that kind of historical respect it’s going to be about the money.
A lot of people (to attempt to sort of unite both themes of the thread) think Jimi Hendrix wrote “All Along The Watchtower”, but you can bet your last dollar Dylan’s enterprise didn’t get stiffed on royalties ensuant therefrom.

91

Chris Bertram 12.13.07 at 11:48 am

For a lot of (mature, black) blues guys who played and paid dues to get what little professional standing they had to have to stand and watch young white kids work a (partially grasped, dimly felt, inexpertly played sans nuance) riff they clearly got from said blues guys and make uncounted thousands of relatively easy dollars from it without kicking down or at least passing some attention back to the (immediate anyway) source, which could then be turned into potentially remunerating publicity etc., was hard.

You know, this is just so much bollocks.

The idea that John Mayall, Alexis Korner and the other British blues enthusiasts of the early 60s were just exploitatively ripping-off black musicians is nonsense. They clearly loved the music and weren’t mainly in it for the money. It is hardly their fault that white America proved more receptive to their product (and its derivatives) than the original, and it is partly as a result of their efforts that the black musicians they _revered_ finally got the recognition they deserved.

92

Steven Poole 12.13.07 at 1:07 pm

It’s probably a healthy thing to satiate one’s inner fascist with atavistic white boy frat rock every so often

Maybe it’s just me, but I think Living Color and Fishbone rock too. Oh, and System of a Down are not exactly fascist. But I guess I’m not a “serious” rock fan like you are!

93

vanya 12.13.07 at 1:25 pm

But I guess I’m not a “serious” rock fan like you are!

No, you are someone with an underdeveloped sense of irony. Sorry about that.

94

Steven Poole 12.13.07 at 1:34 pm

It’s interesting how a claim of “irony” is often a post facto defence of bullshitting.

95

chris y 12.13.07 at 1:50 pm

without kicking down or at least passing some attention back to the (immediate anyway) source…

Which explains why Mick Jagger gave interviews in the early 60s expressing perplexity that anybody should want to hear him singing “King Bee” when they could listen to Slim Harpo. And why Buddy Guy played with Stevie Ray Vaughan every chance he could, and wrote a song to his memory, and why Eric Clapton travelled to London to play with Guy the day after his house burned down.

Yeah. Simple really.

96

rea 12.13.07 at 1:53 pm

Rea, you do understand the difference between asserting that “Country X occasionally gives aid to the Axis powers” and “Country X was behind the attack on Pearl Harbor”, don’t you?

Brett, Iraq under Saddam did not “occasionally give aid” to al Qaeda. You, of course, will maintain that your comment did not imply that Iraq under Saddam occasionally gave aid to al Qaeda, to which I will respond tht you strongly implied that it did.

Now, if you repeat that a few hundred times, you have the conduct of your Bushian masters: repeated public linking of Iraq and al Qaeda, in a context that allows them to weasel when confonted by evidence that it wasn’t true. All that implication and misleading innuendo was not accidental.

Find me a single occasion in which members of this adminstration have tried to justify the Iraq War without reference to terrorism, 9/11, or al Qaeda.

Unlike a certain lady purchasing a stairway, you don’t seem to be aware that sometimes words have two meanings . . .

97

dsquared 12.13.07 at 2:12 pm

91, 95: and indeed, without the efforts of Korner, Mayall etc, none of the people on this thread would have heard of the artists they are eulogising, because by the 1960s, blues music had roughly the cultural cachet of the White Heather Club – it was exceedingly unpopular, even among black people.

98

Brett Bellmore 12.13.07 at 2:33 pm

Rea, there was, at one time, an intelligence community consensus that Iraq was providing al Quaeda with training and resources. Given that, there’s nothing wrong with the early Bush administration asserting that.

And I stand by my statement that, at the least, we should expect students to get the disinformation right: The administration in fact did NOT claim that Saddam was behind 9-11. Some things the administration DID say might explain why an inattentive student might make this mistake, but it’s the student’s mistake, not the administration’s.

99

SG 12.13.07 at 2:41 pm

uh oh, Brett has started italicizing his points. Does this mean they have become as factually correct as David Kane’s?

100

abb1 12.13.07 at 3:16 pm

Both can be true: you can admire someone and yet somehow maintain an exploitative relationship to him at the same time.

101

Doctor Slack 12.13.07 at 3:16 pm

there was, at one time, in the fantasy world of Bushian propaganda, an intelligence community consensus that Iraq was providing al Quaeda with training and resources.

In the real world, of course, there was no such consensus, which is why the infamous Office of Special Plans was created.

Yes, isn’t it freaky how, after the White House spent so much time trying to link Iraq and al-Qaeda in the public mind, there are people who now confuse the two? I don’t see how anyone could have foreseen that. That’s a totally random happening that nobody could possibly be responsible for, least of all the people who spent years harping variously on Iraq’s supposed connection to al-Qaeda and on Iraq as the frontline in the war against al-Qaeda.

102

Robert (Bob) Bobinnalong 12.13.07 at 3:36 pm

Some portion of the blame for “Al Qaeda = Iraq” errors is certainly due to the misleading inferential rhetoric of pro-Iraq-warists; but I suspect a surprising amount arises from those whose thinking goes something like this:

“We were attacked on 9/11. It would make no sense to invade a country, topple its government, and occupy it by force unless that country had attacked us first; America is a great country and would never ever ever do such a thing. Therefore, Iraq attacked us on 9/11.”

One might might blame stupidity for that conclusion from rationalization; another might blame American Exceptionalism for it. Both may be right.

103

rea 12.13.07 at 4:04 pm

Rea, there was, at one time, an intelligence community consensus that Iraq was providing al Quaeda with training and resources.

There’s a Bellmore that’s sure
All that glitters is gold
And he’s buying a stairway to Baghdad . . .

Brett, there has never been, at any time, any such intelligence community consensus. It’s an obvious, transparent absurdity–bin Laden and Saddam, by virtue of their respective ideologies, were necessarily mortal enemies.

104

Elizabeth Barrette 12.13.07 at 4:12 pm

I am disappointed, but not surprised, by this evidence of the effectiveness of propaganda. For my own part, I learned long ago not to take any single news item as valid unless corroborated by independent sources, proven over time, or presented by a source with an especially high accuracy percentage. Most people seem to think that if it’s on the news, it must be true.

One of the most useful resources I’ve found for teaching that “history” isn’t always factual is the show “Assume the Position.” It’s a sharp and funny dissection of the historical process and how non-facts creep into the record. And once students have seen that, it tends to stick in their minds, giving them a useful edge of skepticism against the BS artists.

I’ve also got a saying, “Whenever you see propaganda, clap one hand on your wallet and the other hand on your civil rights, and hold on tight.”

105

Tom 12.13.07 at 4:18 pm

I can’t agree with Vanya’s class analysis. I was a prep school stoner in the 1970s and I loved Led Zeppelin almost as much then as I do now.

106

W. Kiernan 12.13.07 at 5:08 pm

When LZ1 came out us Yardbirds fans were pretty darn impressed (I remember thinking “Jesus, Page is playing as hot as Beck does!”)(that’s finger-lickin’ good Jeff Beck, you youths, not Beck Hansen, who in 1969 was an embryo). And when LZ2 hit the streets we were straight blown away. Zep definitely didn’t have as deep a catalog as the Stones or the Mothers but what they were doing in 1969 they did perfectly. After that album I kind of felt there was a diminution in quality but I never heard an LZ album that didn’t have a couple of genuinely boss cuts on it.

107

rea 12.13.07 at 5:26 pm

When LZ1 came out us Yardbirds fans were pretty darn impressed (I remember thinking “Jesus, Page is playing as hot as Beck does!”)

The Antonioni film Blowup has some interesting but very strange footage of the Yardbirds featuring both Beck and Page . . .

Page, oddly, was the Yardbirds baseplayer.

108

Watson Aname 12.13.07 at 5:35 pm

…there was, at one time, an intelligence community consensus that Iraq was providing al Quaeda with training and resources.

Brett, this is essentially bullshit. Worse, it’s party-line bullshit.

The Bush administration had exhibited interest in going into Iraq prior to Sept, 2001. In the post 9-11 political environment, they ginnied up a set of weak but numerous lies to support that position after taking a weak stab at sorting out Al-Queada et. al. in Afghanastan. Amongst the lies was a persistant, irrational connection drawn between Iraq and `terrorism’, which had by that point become such an amorphous term in the administrations usage as to become pretty much useless. They cherry picked & distorted whatever bits of intel (or non-intel sources, for that mater) they could use to paper over holes in the sales job they had already started — but there is no evidence that the input of the intelligence community as a whole, flawed as it obviously was, was taken that seriously.

People don’t like to think about this too carefully these days, but that’s understandable. The administration treated everyone like chumps, and most everyone pretty much swallowed it.

109

abb1 12.13.07 at 6:01 pm

#103, One might might blame stupidity for that conclusion from rationalization…

No, not stupidity. Combination of ignorance and Occam’s razor approach: the simplest most obvious explanation must be the correct one.

110

Z 12.13.07 at 6:20 pm

…there was, at one time, an intelligence community consensus that Iraq was providing al Quaeda with training and resources.

This particular point irks me to no end, as I was a member of the intelligence community in the early 2000 and I can give direct eye-witness testimony that there was no such consensus. Same with the point about WMD (everybody believed Iraq had WMD? No we didn’t). And don’t try to qualify it in “American intelligence community”, we routniely worked with Americans and there was no discernible differences between their positions and ours.

111

Nancy Lebovitz 12.13.07 at 6:28 pm

I just posted a link to this thread (mostly about epistomology).

112

Marc V 12.13.07 at 6:40 pm

This teacher’s anecdote says more about her and public education today, than any sinister plot by the U.S. government to blame Iraq for 9-11. Any reasonably competent civics or current events class would hopefully have discussed Afghanistan and Iraq as two separate campaigns.

What about the number of young people who have viewed ‘Fahrenheit 911″ or read left-wing blogs who actually believe the 2000 and 2004 elections were stolen? I would venture to say there is more of that propaganda going on then someone conflating Iraq with 9-11 out of their own intellectual laziness.

113

c.l. ball 12.13.07 at 7:44 pm

Students ignorance always tempt me to give a lecture in the spirit of William Buckley’s pseudo-history in the 1978 Panama Canal “Firing Line” debate (e.g. “And Gen. Scott’s order to bombard Vera Cruz is known as the “Dread Scott decision.”)

Re the Iraq≠9/11

An Iraqi intelligence official met w/ ObL or one of his deputies in Sudan, when ObL was based there. Nothing came of it. ObL sounded out Iraq when tensions w/ the Taliban arose, but Iraq was not interested then. No one has ever come up w/ any evidence that they aided each other, plotted together or did anything other than talk. As the 9/11 Commission concluded: “But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States.”

114

yabonn 12.13.07 at 8:15 pm

This particular point irks me to no end, as I was a member of the intelligence community in the early 2000 and I can give direct eye-witness testimony that there was no such consensus.

This. blog. needs. an. Annie. Hall. tag!

115

Watson Aname 12.13.07 at 8:16 pm

Any reasonably competent civics or current events class would hopefully have discussed Afghanistan and Iraq as two separate campaigns.

Any reasonably competent civics or current events class would have discussed the distortion of issues surrounding Afghanistan into claimed justifications for Iraq, which has certainly been a policy (call it a “sinister plot” if you feel you should) of the Bush administration. Do you know of any that do?

116

Tsmoss 12.13.07 at 8:52 pm

113: The 2000 election wasn’t stolen? That’s certainly news to me.

117

Chris Williams 12.13.07 at 11:51 pm

What a long strange thread it’s been . . .

I’m dead chuffed that Nancy L’s noticed it. Back in the day, I used to look out for her posts on rasfw.

More to the point, here’s a heavily paraphrased comment from a historian (not an obviously left-wing one, either) I was talking to today:

“Historians think that they are contributing to a liberal understanding of the past. But they are not. In practice, knowledge of the past serves mainly to justify nationalistic crimes in the the present.’

The historian in question was _not_ the author of this thing, but it’s worth a read in any case:
http://www.historyandpolicy.org/papers/policy-paper-66.html

ObZep: there is no ObZep today.

118

Roy Belmont 12.13.07 at 11:53 pm

#91 et al-
That John Mayall, Alexis Korner and the other British blues enthusiasts
You could throw Long John Baldry in there too if you wanted. Or Fleetwood Mac 1.0. Or in the US, gee, whole bunches of guys – Siegal-Schwall, Butterfield, Bloomfield, Gravenites…or the brilliantly regenerated country blues of Koerner, Ray, and Glover. Tracy Nelson. And especially if to make your snarky point more valid you conflate the years from say 1959 to 1974 or 75. But it’s about large money. It’s about large money at a particular moment when the genre boundaries of music appreciation were disintegrating, vaporizing. The gold mine of late 60’s early 70’s popular music. Records and venues generating massive cash.
The idea that Mayall or Korner were doing much more than living pretty much the same kind of professional lives as Howlin Wolf and Muddy Waters – at the time – won’t hold. They were trying to assume the whole persona, and doing it sometimes, a little fortune, more fame, but nowhere near the superstar bank that came to their junior-varsity siblings like Clapton and Page. Which is not to denigrate anyone or their superlative playing and refined aesthetic morality.
Jagger may have pointed back to his heroes every chance he got, or he may have only done it every once in a while. “Prodigal Son” on “Beggar’s Banquet” has a taint from its near note for note symmetry with a Sonny Terry/Brownie McGee number. There were legal proceedings around that if I’m not mistaken. It’s still a fine tune.
Richards definitely threw his whole celebrity back toward Chuck Berry, when Berry finally let him. But the money, at the time of which I speak, went to the watered-down partial versions of what the blues had become by then, delivered by young white kids, to young white kids.
I love all those guys, every name I’ve mentioned here has my love and respect, full-time. It was more an elaboration of the same idea as made prior.
And I wasn’t making that point so much as the Plant/String Band one, anyway.

119

Doctor Slack 12.14.07 at 12:04 am

This teacher’s anecdote says more about her and public education today, than any sinister plot by the U.S. government to blame Iraq for 9-11.

What watson said. And I love how massive media campaigns that played out over years are suddenly transformed into conspiracy theories whenever it’s expedient for the view from Wingnut Bizzarro World. Don’t believe your lying eyes! The Power of the Right compels you! (And extra points for the sheer nuttiness of implying that Michael Moore just sort of made up the 2000 and 2004 election scandals. Your judgment must surely be unimpeachable.)

120

SG 12.14.07 at 12:22 am

how come 30 years later people are stilll comparing the Rolling Stones with any half-decent bands? They should be compared with Oasis, if they are lucky. Led Zeppelin are clearly in a different league. Hint to the oldies: just because you liked it when you were an adolescent philistine doesn’t make it good.

121

vanya 12.14.07 at 12:36 am

SG,

So you’re saying that Zeppelin are shit compared to the Stones and Oasis? ‘Cause clearly Oasis is more popular than either Zeppelin or the Stones in the UK. It’s really no argument.

122

notsneaky 12.14.07 at 2:22 am

Hint to the oldies: just because you liked it when you were an adolescent philistine doesn’t make it good.

Actually my feelings on this is that there’s a sweet spot which you hit somewhere in early post adolescence. When you’re young your instincts are good but you don’t have experience or a very well developed sense of perspective (the fact that you tend to have strongly held political opinions at this age tends to make this even worse, as you’re very apt to confuse your (usually fairly shallow) ethics with your aesthetics). When you’re old somehow you end up thinking Phil Collins (or the generational equivalent) is ‘subtle’ and great contrary to all the sensory evidence contrariwise. So the pinnacle of your taste takes place sometime in your 20’s. Unless you actively cultivate it.

And cultivating it means listening to, but not emulating or trusting, your 16 year old self:

123

SG 12.14.07 at 5:47 am

vanya, are you poking fun at my english, my taste, or both? (or just me?, ’cause if you are, I’m about to give you much more ammunition…) Or are you suggesting that a band is better if it’s more popular?

notsneaky, I think the problem with the lauding of the stones and the beatles is that too many people from that era (“oldies”) are haven’t moved on from their 16 year old self rather than, as you say, just listening to it. Otherwise they might have realised that much, much better music has come along in the meantime, and those early bands were poor efforts who were in the right place at the right time.

Come to think of it, Led Zeppelin are in this league too. Nothing they have ever done compares to a single song from the classic first album by Annihilator, anything the ‘Irons have ever done, anything by Slayer up to and including Seasons of the Abyss, or the first 10 years of Metallica’s glorious march through modern music. Led Zeppelin were in the better half of a bad bunch.

Which is still better than the Stones – when Kirk Hammet farts he makes better music than those guys.

124

arty kraft 12.14.07 at 10:00 am

Wow, what a thread dudes. And to think, no one has yet mentioned Kid Rock as an even more startling nonsequitur.

Those of us familiar with Orwell aren’t surprised about the misperceptions, misconceptions, twisted truths, clever conceits, or abiding deceptions. We’re just wondering, 1. Who’s going to pass out the soma, and 2. Where’s the line start?

Thinking’s dead. Party on.

125

lindsey 12.14.07 at 10:22 am

Any reasonably competent civics or current events class would hopefully have discussed Afghanistan and Iraq as two separate campaigns.

Would you be shocked to hear that my spring of 2004 government/civics (public school) class didn’t discuss it at all? It might be because we only had one semester of it, or because the majority of my classmates were default Republicans (and the teacher was a closet democrat who didn’t want to sway the class with his personal political view).

126

vanya 12.14.07 at 2:50 pm

Lindsey, not shocked. For the last 4 years though I have been shocked though how little discussion the war gets in America. It seems to come up all the time in Europe, in the US hardly ever. I feel like people tiptoe around the subject for fear of offending, or maybe people genuinely just don’t think about it that much.

127

woody, tokin librul 12.14.07 at 7:39 pm

The People of the United States have been the targets of the largest, most expensive, longest, most sustained, most extensive, most permeating, most cynical propaganda campaign ever undertaken in the history of Humanity.

It began in earnest in the early years of the last century, with the work of Freud’s favorite nephew, and the man–incidentally–who coined the phrase “the manufacture of consent,” Edouard (“Edward”) Bernays, Sigmond Freud’s favorite nephew and, when the old man was in the States, his amenuensis. It has continued unabated for close to 100 years. Bernays appropriated the old man’s ideas, wholesale, and wove them into the fabric of both ‘industries’ in which he as a major figure: ADVERTIZING, and the ‘field’ he is credited with founding, PUBLIC RELATIONS.

In the meantime, in the last 30 years, civic education has declined to the point of invisibility, while the schools bent every effort to ‘teach’ students to be willing, passive, uncritical consumers of media, especially television.

We may well despair for the fate of the country when we see such examples of propagandized ‘thinking,’ but really, we should be happy that it isn’t more wide-spread than it already is (though there is no reason to believe it will not become so).

128

JamesMF 12.15.07 at 6:42 am

to: notsneaky@125-Absolutely spot on. (Uh,is Springsteen a generational equivalent to(shudder)Phil Collins?!? (I was born in 57. I grew up with VietNam rising in my harbor like Godzilla. Rust belt,indeed. We had three choices facing us with the end of high school,choices we were certain of from events observed from the safety of the sixth grade in 1968. They were;college if you were a Fortunate Son,the local Chrysler plant or Nam,if you weren’t. Zep was better than vodka. For awhile…)What do the kids look forward to now? If it keeps on rainin’,levee’s gonna break. And I have known for some time that was Memphis Minnie…

129

QrazyQat 12.16.07 at 2:24 am

Actually, those of us who were adolescents in Zep’s heyday remember that they were considered by most people with taste and discernment to be a crap pretentious band that had become a joke by 1971.

On the DC radio stations in the late 70s there was a payola scandal; it was found out because some of the DJs were pushing the upcoming Led Zep show. What they were doing when they weren’t being paid off was playing ther Stiff Records catalog.

But since then history has sucessfully been changed and now Led Zep was the greatest band as recognised by everyone throughout the 1970s.

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