Like all of you, I’m wondering what’s going on in Iran. Here’s a question I haven’t seen addressed (because it’s premature, that’s why, but I’ll ask it anyway): assuming that the election was stolen, why didn’t those responsible do a more competent job of covering up the evidence? Why the 11th hour scramble? If the election was stolen in this apparently crude, last-minute way, it would appear that the regime was in substantial denial about what was about to happen; which says something. Or it was unable to coordinate a large scale conspiracy to rig the election smoothly, further in advance, presumably for fear that some who were brought into the effort would betray it. That would say something, too.
Here’s a question that maybe people can answer: what’s the history of rigged elections? Are they mostly rigged well in advance, or do those in power do something crude and last-minute when they realize, to their surprise, that they are actually in danger of losing?
{ 54 comments }
jd 06.15.09 at 1:13 pm
The first example that comes to mind is the 1956 “election” which was supposed to give Ngo Dinh Diem legitimacy as the president of an independent South Vietnam. This was after Diem and the US had basically washed out the Geneva agreement to have a referendum on unification of the country in 1956. In any event, Diem insisted on receiving upwards of 90% of the vote, even against the advice of his CIA advisers. There were many reasons the Diem regime lacked legitimacy, but the obviously rigged election at the start was a major factor in his inability to ever rally a substantial number of Vietnamese to his cause.
Anthony 06.15.09 at 1:37 pm
This wasnt a stolen election. This wasnt a fraud. This was a political coup.
http://garysick.tumblr.com/post/123070238/irans-political-coup
http://www.juancole.com/2009/06/stealing-iranian-election.html
Zamfir 06.15.09 at 1:52 pm
In the Iranian case, I find it not so obvious that Ahmadinejad is the regime that risks being thrown over. As far as I can tell, the regime are the unelected higher religious figures, and they could live with both Ahmadinejad or his opponents, or they would not have allowed them to run.
Jim 06.15.09 at 1:59 pm
I’m thinking of the 1988 Mexican elections when “the computers went down” and when they came back on the loser had become the winner.
Nick L 06.15.09 at 2:02 pm
If the election was rigged, then it may indeed have been rigged at the last minute. According to some commentators on the developing situation, the clerical regime were reconciled to a loss for Ahmadinejad, but his supporters within certain sectors of the military effectively forced them to pick a side by taking the first steps toward a coup. So the clerics, the regime proper as Zamfir says, may be reacting to events rather than calling the shots. Perhaps they would rather help to rig an election in a fairly cack-handed manner rather than risk a coup and civil conflict that could paralyse the country and fatally undermine their position.
See:
http://www.progressiverealist.org/blogpost/are-we-witnessing-military-coup-iran
mossy 06.15.09 at 2:30 pm
Over here in Russia we rig/steal elections all the time. The general theory is that the powers that be decide ahead of time how much of a margin they want. Then the local boards arrange it. There was an interesting case of a United Russia candidate (UR is the party of power) who saw that he didn’t win in a local election. But, lo and behold, when the electoral board produced the final tally, he HAD won. He make a public stink about it and refused the “illegally” won position. You’d think this would have brought down the gov’t, but no… business as usual.
The Raven 06.15.09 at 2:37 pm
Hmmm…in the USA, there’s histories of districts where rigging was the norm. What’s odd is that it was widely assumed that the elections were rigged, yet they were still held. In Iran, the crackdown seems to have been planned before the election; something this large isn’t organized overnight. Whoever has done it seems to be willing to attack foreign nationals, too, which is odd.
I wonder if China has a clawed foot in the matter?
Chris Dornan 06.15.09 at 2:40 pm
The Iranin leadership is notiously decentralized and multi-faceted, making it very difficult to co-ordinate any such large-scale irregular action. The military coup that the clerics had to go along with sounds about right, though it is hugely destabilising and the clerics must have hated it.
StevenAttewell 06.15.09 at 3:08 pm
At least in the American context, I would say that stolen elections are often last-minute, when the vote seems to be getting closer than was expected, and that often you get stealing on both sides (in the U.S case, think of the 1960 presidential election in Illinois where Daley’s Chicago machine and the Republican downstate machine were both stealing votes). A good example would be LBJ’s first two runs for Senate, where in the first election, he foolishly thought he was too far ahead and released his counties’ vote totals, whereupon his opponent simply stole enough vote in the remaining counties to erase his margin; in the second election, LBJ was fighting down to the wire, and actually kidnapped a couple boxes of votes to make sure he won by a couple hundred votes.
Hidari 06.15.09 at 3:16 pm
I want to state up front that I have absolutely no idea whether or not the election was rigged. But i will point out a few things.
1: The insistence by ‘experts’ in the ‘West’ (as always, a euphemism) that the elections ‘had to’ be rigged because of the ‘scale’ of the victory is bizarre. Elections that were the result of fraud tend to be knife edge (Bush’s 2000 victory) or unrealistically gigantic (cf #1): for obvious reasons in both cases.
2: Ahmadinejad’s victory (or ‘victory’) was predicted by at least one phone poll . (I know Juan Cole thinks that this poll is misleading, but that’s due to his inferences about which way the undecideds would have gone).
3: as #3 points out, there’s no real motive for a ‘coup’. Ahmadinejad doesn’t have power where ‘we’ think he does: i.e. foreign policy. In terms of domestic policy he seems to be a moderately incompetent populist. And besides he will be gone in four years. What’s the big deal?
4: People who make inferences from street riots and marches need to look at the United States in the late ’60s. If you drew inferences from street actions then, you would conclude that the US was on the brink of a socialist revolution, with help from black nationalists. But Nixon was right: the silent majority were indeed silent: you only hear them when they vote.
However I just want to make absolutely clear that I have no idea whether or not vote fraud was involved in the current elections and for all I know the clerical authorities have lost their minds and staged a coup for no apparent reason.
P O'Neill 06.15.09 at 3:18 pm
One hypothesis is that the religious establishment decided it had to be massive rigging because a “close” outcome would be more likely to precipitate a “Green Revolution”. With Fox News doing extreme weather and crime stories yesterday, I wonder if they read at least part of their opposition correctly.
the teeth 06.15.09 at 3:38 pm
My naive/underinformed theory is that the blatancy of fraud is a deliberate provocation — those in charge decided that now would be a good hour to get the opposition out in mass, the better to put them down, while publicly representing themselves — no matter how transparent these claims might be to anyone w/ the slightest bit of skepticism — as the side respecting the democratic process.
Does anybody w/ deeper knowledge of the situtaion know if there’s anything to this take, or am I making up a just-so story?
Ray 06.15.09 at 3:48 pm
It would be wise not to assume a greater degree of coherence, coordination, or competence within the Iranian government than actually exists.
Mikhail 06.15.09 at 4:13 pm
You might as well assume that they are ALL rigged… :) … because those that are rigged well in advance are usually praised and applauded as “having gone very smoothly”… ;-)
dr ngo 06.15.09 at 4:31 pm
I would distinguish between rigged elections, in which there is never any real pretense of counting actual votes, and stolen elections, in which actual votes form a substantial part of the final official totals.
The former, in places like the Republic of Vietnam (cited above), Communist Eastern Europe “back in the day,” North Korea, and certain African countries, often wind up with ridiculous margins of victory, with the ruling party collecting 90% of the vote of more. These are well-prepared in advance, and lack all credibility.
The latter are more interesting, in that a ruling party *believes* that it is popular enough to win a genuinely free – well, pretty nearly free – election, and thus give democratic legitimacy, both internal and external, to its ongoing rule. It is when this belief proves unsound that there are late, improvisational attempts to steal the election, e.g., the “snap election” in the Philippines in 1986, or the election in Burma (Myanmar) in 1990. In the former case Marcos attempted to steal the count, but was in the event overthrown by a “People Power” revolution; in the latter, the ruling junta, having lost the election, simply suspended the results indefinitely. (To this day.)
My assumption in both of these cases is that authoritarian rulers, by their nature, tend to get a blinkered view of reality, since those around them have learned over the years not to tell them bad news. Surrounded by flatterers, they simply misjudge how the populace as a whole views them and thus, if they wish to retain power, may have to scramble to steal elections they had thought they could win “legitimately” (e.g., with only such standard “dirty tricks” as harassing the opposition in court, breaking up their rallies, spending much more on campaign advertising, bribing more voters, intimidating opposition voters, &c.).
Whether this applies to Iran today, I do not know. But you asked for the history of rigged/stolen elections, and this is my contribution to that history.
Sock Puppet of the Great Satan 06.15.09 at 5:23 pm
“Or it was unable to coordinate a large scale conspiracy to rig the election smoothly, further in advance, presumably for fear that some who were brought into the effort would betray it. That would say something, too.”
Interesting parallel would be with the abortive August 1991 coup in the Soviet Union, which failed pretty quickly. However, in that case the plotters probably feared exposure (Shevardnadze got wind of a December 1990 plot, and very conspicously made a speech denouncing it and resigned, which spooked the plotters into postponement), and failed to get the buy-in from all the needed security services, including the military and KGB in the Leningrad area (which meant Antoli Sobchak, the mayor of Leningrad, was able to keep security forces out of Leningrad even while he was returning from his Caspian vacation. Although Sobchak had the help of his Deputy Mayor, an obscure fellow called V. Putin.)
I’d guess that the coup plotters in this were more focused on getting the security services bought-in and left making the Excel spreadsheets with the fraudulent numbers to some junior intern.
Martin Bento 06.15.09 at 5:29 pm
Although Mikhail is being flip, I think he has a point. Elections that have been stolen well are probably generally perceived not to have been stolen (one could even say this is a key part of the definition of “well” in this context), and it is hard to estimate how large a portion of “legitimate” elections they might constitute. I would guess not huge, but perhaps more than generally assumed.
mossy 06.15.09 at 6:10 pm
In Russia a couple of guys plotted election results (in some complicated mathematical way that I can’t remember). What was interesting is that it looked like amounts were rounded up. That is, it is highly unlikely that percentages in 30 of the 89 constituent units were 55 percent, and another batch 45 percent, and another batch 65 percent. Here the theory was that the local administrators — governors are now appointed by the president — wanted to “please” the boss and so raised the rates just a little bit. 55 percent is more “solid” than, say, 52.3 percent.
This answers the other question: why bother if you’re going to win anyway? That is, because the media is largely controlled (where it counts), the leaders are truly popular (even if their policies are not). Why bother jacking up the counts? The idea is that the local guy gets to show what a great team player he is, “bringing” the leader such good election results.
JoB 06.15.09 at 7:43 pm
John, I guess what happened is that the real power was perfectly fine with either of the outcomes, then realized the cat of emotion was out of the bag, wanted to avoid the 2nd round at all costs, needed somebody to win with over 50% and finally thought that the public uproar would be more damaging if Ahmadinejad won. Could have worked (as it is far from certain the other guy actually would have won a non-rigged election) until a lesser Ayatollah said: “Let’s be on the safe side & give the winner 60%. That’ll shut ’em up.” The lesser Ayatollah can now forget all of his dreams of becoming big Ayatollah & also the Iranians know that they’re closer to North Korea than they imagined.
JoB 06.15.09 at 7:51 pm
Or maybe the lesser Ayatollah was an evil genius and thought: “If I have to rig it, I’ll go and make it damned obvious it’s rigged. Hmmm.” (frowns pensively, then exclaims:) “I have it. Let’s have Ahmedinejad win all the young urbanite districts as well!”
Thomas Beck 06.15.09 at 7:57 pm
Juan Cole thinks they simply didn’t expect to lose and thus were not prepared for that eventuality.
Mike C 06.15.09 at 8:01 pm
Very reminiscent of the Mugabe-Tsvangirai race of last year in Zimbabwe. Mugabe was so sure that he would win that he let the results of the initial election, which he lost, get announced. Then, after forcing a runoff, he just arrested, beat or killed anyone who tried to vote against him, including leading members of the opposition party. After a settlement was brokered by foreign leaders (that ludicrously allowed him to remain president, while naming Tsvangirai as PM), he even tried to steal that, by violating the terms under which cabinet positions were to be named. But don’t worry, it’s all Europe’s fault.
peter 06.15.09 at 8:39 pm
Sock Puppet @16:
In addition, during the attempted coup in the USSR in 1991, the commander of the Soviet Strategic Missile Command put all missiles under his command into transit mode, ie, being moved from place to place, a mode that a proportion of missiles are always in, as a precaution against a foreign anti-missile attack. This effectively placed all ICBMs out of use by the coup-leaders. The only people who knew this were himself, his direct staff, and the Government of the USA, since they could observe the missile transit movements via satellite and spy plane. The USA interpreted his action – correctly – as a signal to the USA from the Soviet SSM that the SSM was not in favour of the coup. This allowed the Bush 41 administration, knowing there was high-level opposition inside the Soviet military to the coup, to take a less-panicked position than might have been the case otherwise: Bush 41 was remarkably calm in his public responses to the coup.
peter 06.15.09 at 8:49 pm
Mike C 06.15.09 at 8:01 pm wrote:
“Very reminiscent of the Mugabe-Tsvangirai race of last year in Zimbabwe. Mugabe was so sure that he would win that he let the results of the initial election, which he lost, get announced. Then, after forcing a runoff, he just arrested, beat or killed anyone who tried to vote against him, including leading members of the opposition party.”
Actually, the true order of events in Zimbabwe is the reverse of what you’ve written: Mugabe arrested, beat or killed anyone who tried to vote against him, including leading members of the opposition party, BEFORE the last election, and has been doing so since 1982, when scores or possibly even hundreds of thousands of Matabeleland residents were murdered by Mugabe’s North Korean-trained 5 Brigade. One reason the locusts leading ZANU-PF cling so tenaciously to power is that they too are implicated in that mass murder, along with Mugabe, and know too that they deserve to be tried for it.
Carrots and Sticks 06.15.09 at 8:57 pm
I’m thinking of the 1988 Mexican elections when “the computers went down†and when they came back on the loser had become the winner.
My understanding is that Mexico is an example where a long tradition of passive rigging of elections collapsed as more flagrant methods became necessary. The more flagrant methods of vote rigging eventually lead to reform.
I had a professor from Nigeria describe his experience in an election where both sides tired to steal the election. He didn’t know until the votes were counted if the ballot stuffing of his favored candidate had been thwarted.
Michael Cross 06.15.09 at 11:24 pm
If the election was rigged, it is sad. However, the bleats from Western governments would be more convincing if any of them had condemned the 2000 election in the USA, or the 1960 election for that matter. Canada’s government rigged the 1917 by disfranchising aliens who might vote against it, and giving the vote to mothers and sisters of men overseas. The Province of Quebec had a long history of rigged elections, on the scale of Louisiana. The world was silent. The double standard surely makes emerging nations rightly cynical of our democratic pretensions.
david 06.15.09 at 11:38 pm
“The more flagrant methods of vote rigging eventually lead to reform.” Except that in Mexico there appears to have been some backsliding.
One of the more petty irritating aspects of the stolen 88 vote is the incessant bullshit about Mexico’s democratization that came along with Nafta. I always found compelling the argument that Nafta was in part an agreement by the US and Mexico to let Mexico actually hold elections. Didn’t work out past the odious Fox, though.
Z 06.16.09 at 1:33 am
In colonial Algeria in the fifties, rigging was an integral part of the electoral process, complete with a dedicated paraphernalia: fake voting booth, rigged voting boards and the like. After a few round of those, voters usually stop to show up, and those holding power either have a few years of people’s apathy or a violent insurrection to deal with.
self exile 06.16.09 at 4:17 am
Now in 1952 when Eisenhower won the election, my father was a poll watcher/vote counter. For some reason he took me with him. Now this was in the Ozark hills where there were actually 9 idiots in the county that had voted Republican. After scrapping off all of the pro Republican votes there was a debate and they decided to mark one Republican vote for Eisenhower. The winning argument was that the Republicans would split up over wondering why all the other Republicans voted Democratic.
I’ve never had a bit of respect for voting since. I think you idiots waste your time on voting. It don’t matter who you elect, he/she/it will sell out in two weeks.
Think I’m lying. I broke down and registered and voted for Perot in 1992. Take a look at the stats, a crooked thieving businessman garnered that many votes. Then look at the change in congress in 1994, people wanted change. Every lit two bit twit got elected on reform. Check the donations stats for 1994 and 1995, the reformers followed Newt Gingrich’s advice and collected more bribes than the experienced polls.
Go vote, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. What a waste of time.
You might as well write in Mickey Mouse.
The Raven 06.16.09 at 5:43 am
Time to rerun the “Corvids Count” post. Forgive me, folks, but it seems to bear repeating.
Links.
Arturo 06.16.09 at 11:14 am
In the Kenyan elections early last year it seems to have been a more last minute scramble i.e. supporting your second hypothesis.
The opposition had won a majority of the seats in the parliamentary elections, and the opposition presidential candidate Odinga was leading strongly in early counts for the presidential election (separately voted on the same day). Then all of a sudden the presidential vote count encountered “delays”, the electoral commission reported back on a Sunday morning that the incumbent (Kibaki) had won and he was sworn in very rapidly (only two hours later as I understand).
The ensuing violence was started off by protests at just how blatant a piece of last minute rigging this was (it escalated for a range of other reasons). Overall seems to have been the ruling party genuinely surprised at how the parliamentary results turned out and having to scramble to respond for the presidential election.
skidmarx 06.16.09 at 11:56 am
Some of the best tips on election fraud are here:
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/h/harry-harrison/stainless-steel-rat-for-president.htm
JoB 06.16.09 at 12:45 pm
@30, it is not that curious, democracy trumps anti-democracy and anti-democrats are whether they like it or not on the defensive. Even dictators will invoke the voice of the people – although they’ll invariably claim to possess a special conduit by which they hear it. And anybody with the strong belief that her/his specific beliefs are right but somehow difficult to be explained in ways convincing the electorate is prone to explain any vote in ways supporting her or his beliefs. It is a constant source of the most hilarious political statements.
(I’m starting to be convinced I was right in 19)
strasmangelo jones 06.16.09 at 1:33 pm
The more flagrant methods of vote rigging eventually lead to reform.
Tell that to Obrador.
Sock Puppet of the Great Satan 06.16.09 at 3:14 pm
“The USA interpreted his action – correctly – as a signal to the USA from the Soviet SSM that the SSM was not in favour of the coup. This allowed the Bush 41 administration, knowing there was high-level opposition inside the Soviet military to the coup, to take a less-panicked position than might have been the case otherwise: Bush 41 was remarkably calm in his public responses to the coup.”
Thanks for this detail. IIRC the Soviet Air Force also made it known that they weren’t in favor of the coup. But I was always impressed by how Bush 41 didn’t fuck up in 1991 or in 1989, by being calm and letting the Soviet bloc implode.
Ian Whitchurch 06.16.09 at 8:49 pm
Regardless of what is thought by Hidari, Marty Peretz and various other persons, there is a smoking gun that the declared results in the recent Iranian election are not remotely credible.
Ignore the national results. Ignore Ahmadinejad and Mousavi. Concentrate on Mehdi Karroubi and on Lorestan.
Here are the recently announced results for Lorestan in the 2009 Iranian first-round election – the one we just had. I got this copy from Nate Silver’s site at http://www.fivethirtyeight.com
Ahmadinejad 677 829
Mousavi 219 846
Rezaee 14 290
Karroubi 44 036
OK, so we have Karroubi getting 5% of the vote in Lorestan. Lets see how he did 4 years ago …
http://www.electoralgeography.com/new/en/countries/i/iran/2005-president-elections-iran.html
LORESTAN
===================================================================
First round Second round
Candidate Votes % Votes %
——————————————————————-
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad 69,710 08.8
Mehdi Karroubi 440,247 55.5
Ali Larijani 31,169 03.9
Mohsen Mehralizadeh 6,865 00.9
Mostafa Moin 53,747 06.8
Mohammad Baqer Qalibaf 70,225 08.9
Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani 121,130 15.3
By the way, Karroubi is from Lorestan, has his own political party, his own newspaper, was Speaker of the Parliament, came a strong third overall in the 2005 elections and may therefore fairly be assumed to have some sort of effective political machine in Lorestan, his home province.
Never the less, by the official results, in his own province, he goes from 440 247 votes in 2005 down to 44 036 votes in 2009.
It is simply not within the bonds of possibility that a regional Opposition candidate goes from 55% to 5% in his own province in just four years.
Ian Whitchurch
Jason Osgood 06.16.09 at 9:02 pm
Andrew Gumbel’s book Steal This Vote is a good survey of stolen elections.
Mikhail 06.17.09 at 7:43 am
#23 & #35:
It’s rather amusing reading about all the missiles being put out of commission… You must be forgetting the simple fact that MOST missiles in those times were stationed in ground-based launch shafts and could not possibly be moved anywhere apart from being taken out and lowered back in… :) Also, your story presupposes that since the coup leaders could not use them, neither could the legitimate leadership – that’s state treason boys and girls, quite severely punishable, as it renders the country helpless in case of an attack. NO general or commander in their right mind would ever do that…
ajay 06.17.09 at 9:49 am
Unpleasant and patronising though he is, I think Mikhail has a point – certainly about most ICBMs being in silos. Perhaps peter could supply a reference?
Mikhail 06.17.09 at 10:08 am
I’m only patronising because some people don’t bother to think before repeating hearsay stories.
Hidari 06.17.09 at 10:45 am
‘It is simply not within the bonds of possibility that a regional Opposition candidate goes from 55% to 5% in his own province in just four years.’
‘The Canadian federal election of 1993 (officially, the 35th general election) was held on October 25 of that year to elect members to the Canadian House of Commons of the 35th Parliament of Canada. Fourteen parties competed for the 295 seats in the House at that time. It was one of the most eventful elections in Canada’s history, with more than half of the electorate switching parties from the 1988 election. The Liberals, led by Jean Chrétien, won a strong majority in the House and formed the next government of Canada.
The election was called by the new Progressive Conservative Party leader, Prime Minister Kim Campbell, near the end of her party’s five-year mandate. When she assumed office, the party was deeply unpopular, and was further weakened by the emergence of new parties that were competing for its core supporters. Campbell’s initial efforts helped the party recover somewhat in pre-election polls before the writs were issued. However, this momentum did not last, and the Progressive Conservatives suffered the most lopsided defeat for a governing party at the federal level, losing more than half their vote from 1988 and all but two of their 151 seats’.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_federal_election,_1993
(‘ah yes but the situations weren’t comparable because blah blah blah’).
To absolutely repeat, clearly and as explicitly as possible: I have absolutely no idea whether or not there was voter fraud in the Iranian elections and neither does anybody else contributing to this thread.
Tim Wilkinson 06.17.09 at 11:10 am
While we’re speculating, anyone got any good false flag hypotheses? What kind and degree of outside intervention would be required to produce a perception of vote fraud, particularly among Iranians?
Beryl 06.17.09 at 12:30 pm
Hidari (@41),
(‘ah yes but the situations weren’t comparable because blah blah blah’)
You really don’t know much about Canadian politics, do you?
As a Canadian (who has also lunched with Kim Campbell… she is a smart and very candid woman, but I never voted for her: I generally vote NDP), let me point out the obvious:
1. Kim Campbell was never elected as Prime Minister. She won her party’s leadership convention largely as a reaction to her predecessor’s – and party’s – deep unpopularity. Her stay in office (from assuming her party’s leadership until losing the general election was a grand total of 132 days). And, more importantly…
2. She was not any sort of “ethnic” or (“regional opposition”) candidate (only a Québécois would remotely fit that category in Canada and it often backfires: Stéphane Dion, the last leader of the Liberals, was more popular in Ontario than in Québec).
ajay 06.17.09 at 12:59 pm
40: that’s an explanation, but not an excuse. What you should have said was something like “peter, I’d be interested to know more about that story. It seems unlikely to have happened exactly that way, because most Soviet ICBMs were silo-based, and so couldn’t have been put in transit mode – do you have a reference?” That way, you’d have got your point across without everybody reading your comment and going “that Mikhail bloke is a bit of a pillock”.
Beryl 06.17.09 at 1:16 pm
And, I forgot to mention one more obvious difference: 1993 was the year two genuinely regional opposition parties emerged in Canada – the (separatist) Bloc Québécois, which went from 0 to 54 seats (entirely in Québec) and the western (in US terms think “southern”) Reform Party, which went from 0 to 52 seats, almost entirely in Alberta and B.C. (Kim Campbell ran in Vancouver). These two blocks account for most of the 167 seats the Conservatives lost in that election. By comparison, my party, the NDP – also under a woman’s leadership – went from 43 seats to 9. The victorious Liberals only increased their total vote by under 10 percentage points. In sum: Kim Campbell was no “ethnic” or “regional” candidate and her campaign took place at the worst possible time for herself and her party.
Laleh 06.17.09 at 5:11 pm
Re: Polls in Iran which Hidari cites.
I don’t trust ANY poll taken of Iranians. None whatsoever. No matter which way they lean. I just cannot possibly see Iranians actually answering truthfully to the question “who are you going to vote for” posed by a stranger. A combination of experience of repression (not unique to Iran) and hyper-paranoia (particularly well-developed in Iranians for good reason, after all “just because you are paranoid, doesn’t mean they are not out to get you”) tells Iranians never to answer such a question to a poll-taker.
ejh 06.17.09 at 5:14 pm
One question I would like to see asked of Iranians is – “why are so many of your protest posters in English?” It sseems a strange thing to do, but there has to be a reason for it.
Brian 06.17.09 at 10:08 pm
Doesn’t the supreme council in Iran basically choose who is and isn’t allowed to run for office in the first place? I seem to recall in the last election there were loads of people “disqualified” from taking part in the election, which allowed Ahmadinejad win in the first place. What I don’t understand is why the supreme council would allow/take part in electoral fraud when they would have ok’d the only candidates ahead of time.
Beryl 06.18.09 at 1:01 pm
Laleh (@46),
I have an Iranian colleague who has said similar things to me.
P.S. What is your opinion of Eric Hooglund?
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2009/06/who-voted-ahmadinejad
Tim Wilkinson 06.21.09 at 7:08 pm
why are so many of your protest posters in English?
There is a goodish case for innocent selection bias…or maybe not.
you certainly don’t have to be a wild-eyed Photoshop theorist to think that pics like this have little value as reportage (evidence) rather than mere illustration – any more than footage of the Iraqi ‘liberation’ celebrations – 15 men hitting a statue, 3 men firing guns in the air on a 12 second loop. Or for that matter the vid used by Rumsfeld to downplay looting (as a friend put it: “man steals vase = nothing bad is going on anywhere”).
virgil xenophon 06.21.09 at 7:31 pm
skidmarx@32:
The original “stainless-steel-rat” short story is one of the all-time classics. I read it in the original in 6th or 7th grade in either “Galaxy” or “Astounding” (later Analog) SF magazine., IIRC. Great memories–but that’s all. My Mother threw out my entire collection of Galaxy and Astounding that I had stored in 3 huge creaking drawers in my room to make more room for linens when I went away to college in 1962. I could have killed her. (BTW, The author sure took an original concept and ran with it a long way with his later series of books, didn’t he?)
virgil xenophon 06.21.09 at 8:09 pm
Let me go on the record to nitpick and take umbridge with an assertion by Steven Attewell@9 in which attempts to suggest a moral and factual equivalency as between the Democratic Chicago machine which stole the 1960 election for JFK and the then predominantly majority Republican vote downstate. Unfortunately for Mr. Attewell, I am a native of down-state Ill. and was a sophmore in HS at the time of the election. Two yrs later as a HS Sr. I had as a student teacher in my civics class one Kenneth Fish, who was getting his MA in Poli-Sci at the local univ. which was also located in the county seat. He also wore the twin hats of Treasurer of the County Democratic party and of the State Democratic party Treasurer for the County. His master’s thesis was on down-state county political organizations. Among his findings were that in most cases the party apparatus of down-state political parties was skeletal at best–and that the existence of any massive, organized machines that churned out stolen votes was risible on it’s face. Even more to the point was/is the fact that even then, (and more so now with population increases and migration) while most down-state counties tended to vote Republican in national elections, it was only by very small margins. This was/is because most downstate cities tend to vote democratic (The Mayor of my town of 12,000 in 1960 was a Democrat–and also my history teacher) and barely offset by the almost 100% rural Republican vote. So, as most county seats were/are in fact cities controlled by Democrats, the possibilities for massive Republican inspired vote fraud were/are almost nil.
What Steven Attewell and others on the left like him has/have attempted to do is blunt the obvious reality of the utter corruption of the Democratic Chicago machine–a machine that produced our present President– by falsely charging that “the GOP did it too” and thus are no better–ethically or historically. Insofar as the State of Illinois and the 1960 election goes, the facts and history utterly refute that calumny. People like Steven Attewell should go elsewhere to find a more gullible and misinformed audience to which peddle their fairy-tales.
Tim Wilkinson 06.21.09 at 8:35 pm
Among his findings were that in most cases the party apparatus of down-state political parties was skeletal at best—and that the existence of any massive, organized machines that churned out stolen votes was risible on it’s face.
Was the latter a finding in this long MA essay, or your gloss on it? In any case, this seems to be an interesting new addition to the armchair conspiracy-refutation literature – very small (poorly overseen?) groups are yet another bunch who can’t do conspiracies (at least not in the interesting part of history that falls within a moving 60-year ‘current affairs’ window.)
J Thomas 06.23.09 at 1:59 am
We don’t know whether the election was stolen. For that matter we don’t know whether the US 2000 and 2004 elections were stolen.
The people who break the law in iran to protest the possibility that the election were stolen are doing the best they know to do.
Similarly, the people who enforce the law to protect public order, who try to stop the people who are breaking windows and starting fires and destroying automobiles on the street are also doing the best they know to do.
Just as in 1968 the protestors in the streets of chicago were doing right, as were the police who broke their heads. The rioters in detroit and Watts, at A&T in Greensboro and at Kent State were doing the best they knew, as were the National Guard who shot them.
Khamenei behaves correctly by maintaining law and order. The laws might need to be corrected to get honest elections, and if so that should happen. Do people make that more likely by breaking the law in the streets? I dunno. I used to think so. If we’d done that in 2000 maybe we wouldn’t today have touchscreen voting machines that allow no recounts.
Should we hve gone into the streets and protested in 2000 and 2004? Too late now
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