I Got a Spot That Gets Me Hot/But You Ain’t Been To It

Personal responsibility is so last century.

Contrary to what you say, the impression I got from skimming the threads was that the predominant recommendation from the relevant audience of women to men was “Do more housework” rather than “Do more foreplay” (note that’s “predominant”, not “exclusive”).

Hmmm … dangerous waters here …

if you are a heterosexual man of middle years, and it has been your life-long experience that women don’t like to have sex—with the result that they regard it indifferently as a bargaining chip rather than a pleasurable activity they would be denying themselves—maybe you’re doing it wrong. Just a thought.

Nah. That’s what they want us to think. In reality women simply don’t care so much for sex. And the easiest way forward for all parties is for them to simply be frank about it. Just a thought.

The institution of marriage is obsolete.

the impression I got from skimming the threads was that the predominant recommendation from the relevant audience of women to men was “Do more housework” rather than “Do more foreplay”

To be honest, the two rather blend into one after you’ve been married a while. Mind you, I am apparently clumsy, slapdash and ineffectual when it comes to housework too.

The institution of marriage is obsolete.

Or maybe sex is obsolete. I know Groucho Marx said it is here to stay, but when you think about it, that was just so 1930s.

while reading the articles and comments, I got the impression that both women and men want sex -hence the title is inappropiate. It seems a case of ” the fox who can’t get the grapes and says they are sour”.

Also, most of the people have a lousy attitude – which explains why they don’t get any.

Foreplay is housework.

Sexygal,

Why do I need lessons? Why the arrogant knowing tone followed by the lack of a substantive point?

You seem to think that I warrant some kind of criticism, but it is not at all clear how what you say is supposed to be related to what I say. I certainly never even came close to claiming that all individuals have the same sexual preferences/experiences, or that what is sexually pleasurable is a constant. Instead, for my claim to make sense I must believe that there is significant variation.

And what is this nonsense about thinking in binaries? Do you think that putting quotation marks around a couple of words constitutes an argument?!! In that case I counter with “women,” “marriage,” and “sex,” and implore you should stop thinking in triplets.

I am not your dear (thank god)!!!

Maybe you should do some self-critical “rethinking” regarding your superiority complex

Russell, I have actually in my life seen things done with a vacuum that were on that spectrum. I’ll stop there.

“Russell, I have actually in my life seen things done with a vacuum that were on that spectrum.”

You have worked, I take it, in an emergency department?

Cleaning the dishes and the bathroom, possibly. But vacuuming? Not so much.

You should have seen my wife’s reaction when I started using attachments (and no, I don’t mean for sexual stimulation, I mean for actual cleaning).

But even after years of great sex and copious compliments thereon, any partner is going to get boring and so yes, sex will become just another bargaining chip.

But if her mind’s tore up / then her body don’t care!
.

Hogan: Funny.

1) Women, presumably, share some responsibility for whether they have enjoyable sex.
2) Enjoying sex and using it as a bargaining chip are not mutually exclusive. To use an inverse analogy, no country during the cold war *wanted* a nuclear war, but they certainly used nuclear brinksmanship as a bargaining chip.

Well, I really do think, based on my admittedly rather limited experience (only a handful of partners in my 51 years- Casanova I ain’t), that women a) generally are not as easily aroused, and differ more b) between one person and another and c) from one time to the next, than men do in what they need in order to be satisfied. And I have not found women, again in my limited experience, to have a problem with insufficient awareness of what’s needed for their partner’s pleasure, whereas I certainly have heard a number of women say that a certain lack of such awareness is not all that uncommon among men. Again with the caveat that this is all very anecdotal and based on not much of a sample.

But I heartily agree with those who have commmented that if it’s not playful and fun, what’s the point? So maybe the word “responsibility” is much too heavy in this context.

I think the Guardian ran a feature some years ago on injuries caused by misuse of vacuum cleaners … far too risky.

Helen is hot!
Yeah baby, I’d do her!
She says all the right things to stir my libido.
These communitarian/libertarian girls really get me agitated!
And right here in good old Knoxville. Heh. Indeed.

I don’t know if it’s “housework” per se as much as one partner feeling as if she (it’s more often she) is doing most of the “relationship work.” Emotional work, kin work, etc. and often on top of earning an income. You can’t give and give and give without eventually feeling resentful, and then poof goes the sex drive. Unless you’re Mother Teresa, and she never had sex.

Another thing that some people SOMEHOW get to adulthood without learning is that poor personal hygiene is an epic turn-off. Body odor, bad breath, stinky hair…honestly, “love me as I am” doesn’t mean “B.O. and all.” The Middle Ages are so yesterday.

A suggestion for women who want to get more housework out of their husbands: don’t simply offer sex. That makes a man feel dirty and cheap, as if he’s being used for housework. You may get a couple of chores out of him that way, but only with reluctance and resentment, and chances are neither of you will end up satisfied.

Instead, make him feel appreciated as a person, not just as a housework object. Wear sexy clothes. Flirt with him. Don’t just have sex with him–feign enthusiasm about it. If he feels valued, loved and desired, then he’ll want to do housework, enjoy it–even look forward to it. Before long, he’ll be cooking you elaborate dinners and cleaning up afterwards, and your relationship will sparkle like a new romance, all over again.

Steve, it takes away (temporarily) all those little animosities – you didn’t do any housework, you forgot the anniversary, you aren’t buying the flowers and so on. Unless the animosity is too strong, in which case – forget it.

P.S., rereading the post I think Belle is correct that if you believe that *women in general* don’t like sex then either your experience is limited or you are doing it wrong. However, there could be many reasons *your wife* (one particular woman) doesn’t like sex that have nothing to do with “doing it wrong”.

Also, in my experience many women, a minority but a sizable minority, are lousy lovers. However, they get away with it because men really love sex and are grateful to get any. Men can’t get away with that shit, you have to know what you’re doing.

It’s so weird to me that this topic provokes so much (what I assume to be) male hostility. Nobody’s saying that you, personally, are doing anything wrong–I assume that regular Crooked Timber readers are all absolute dynamite in the sack, anyway. And it seems just as risky to have a strong attachment to “men as a group” as to “white people as a group” or “citizens of the developed world” as a group, since you end up having to defend some really unattractive behaviors that you, personally, may not like all that much.

In short, most men don’t do half the domestic stuff, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t. A significant number of men don’t really concern themselves with female sexual response except when it flatters them, but that doesn’t mean it’s your personal failing.

And I would add–as a lurker of the female persuasion–that cultural stuff really messes me up about sex. There’s this narrative everywhere from Dan Savage columns to television (from A to B, I know) that goes like this: “Men have a “natural” sex drive, unlike women’s “cultural/all about feelings” sex drive. Men can’t control how they feel sexually, which is why they’ll get bored with you once you’re married and then divorce you for a younger woman. It’s your job to stay as young-looking as you can, but your partner will inevitably stop being attracted to you as you get old, saggy and boring.”

Then there’s the other narrative that goes “You need to be Sexxeeee regardless of how you feel personally, because you are in competition with models, strippers and college co-eds, and your partner is constantly looking to trade up, even if he doesn’t say so. He may stay with you for the sake of the kids, but he’s really longing for no-consequences sex with cheerleaders and regretting that he ever married.”

Now, I’m not that far removed from co-ed-dom, and I don’t have any kids, and I’m not a big fan of marriage. But these stories about male sexuality depress me so that–in real time–it’s difficult for me to get into it. I feel like a service provider who must provide service with a smile or risk losing her customer–I have to provide variety and a superior-quality service because I’m in competition with lots of other providers, from the actual to the virtual.

For years, I read all these Dan Savage-esque “What male sexuality is really like” articles, and the conclusion I’ve drawn is that if those articles are in fact correct, women in long-term relationships really are cut-rate sexual service-providers, and the only reason “enjoying it” gets brought up is that it’s more fun for men if women don’t seem to be unhappy.

This is doubly disturbing to me because it’s always spun as “what men actually think”…and that makes me think that any male partner I have is, on some level, lying in order to get me to sleep with him.

And I would add—as a lurker of the female persuasion—that cultural stuff really messes me up about sex.

The good news is that as you get older I think you’ll find it easier and easier to ignore cultural stuff that messes you up (not just about sex). At least that’s been my experience. I just don’t give a rat’s ass what the pop-cultural zeitgeist has to say about pretty much anything.

Nasty and patronizing, hell–it’s got Frank Zappa AND early Randy Newman. Two bitter tastes that taste great together.

Good on ya, Belle.

Hmm. Every woman that I’ve ever slept with liked sex a LOT. Now maybe I was just lucky, or … okay, I was lucky. But when I read about people who want to claim that women aren’t interested in sex, well, one does have to wonder …

On housework and vacuuming; I’m fine vacuuming my place once a month. I’ve also met women who insist on vacuuming every day. If we were to get in a relationship, agree on vacuuming every day and split the workload 50/50 I’d be vacuuming 15x more than previously while she’d be vacuuming only 1/2 as frequently as she would be otherwise. This hardly seems fair or efficient.

On the other hand, I could wait till some committment resources have been invested and then, knowing she’s crazy about having a vacuumed carpet, just free ride on her efforts. I get clean carpet with less work than before and she has to adjust cuz the costs are sunk.

I think a lot of men see themselves as being in the first situation while a lot of women see themselves in the second situation neither of which is good.

This is why you should hold out for someone who’s just as messy as you.

This thread has Bergman’s “Scenes from a Marriage” written all over it. Highly recommended.

I think women’s sex drive is just a lot more variable than men’s, both across people and across time for the same person. I’ve been in a number of relationships where the woman wanted significantly more sex than me (remember that the female capacity for sexual performance is much greater than the male), and a number where the woman wanted less. It’s kind of luck of the draw. If you end up in the latter case, you have to deal with it.

For a variety of reasons, social and biological, they don’t always ACT on this desire quite as much as men, but my experience was (when I was single) that, once I was in a sexual relationship, my partners wanted every bit as much sex as did I.

And my experience (now that I AM single, once again) is similar. ;)

Methinks abb1 may be onto something wrt marriage. ;)

Hmm, strikes me there’s a nice little market niche here for a home service that can tackle both housework and foreplay – sorta like ‘Dial-A-Maid’ meets ‘Feels On Wheels’.

I love it how all the harcore “anti-relativists” have suddenly discovered that there’s no right or wrong answers.

Again, nobody’s fault. Just different preferences.

WOW, so many comments here in only one day! Why don’t you guys go on and enjoy sex a bit before you work so hard here? ha ha.

Oh, forget about the volcumm and housework thing! Just enjoy sex and the intimacy with “her” for a while, which could bring you a moment to have a deeper sense of what it menas to “selfness”, “otherness”, and “inter-subjectivity”.

I guess that’s the most exciting part in my sexual pleasure, my real orgasm. Cheers.

“The institution of marriage is obsolete.”

Darn! And just when us gays are getting geeked up to ruin it, too.

I thought the gay agenda was about being accepted for being different.

You must be looking at a very old copy, stostosto; we’ve updated it to include “The inversion of the heterosexual paradigm and the destruction of the traditional family.”
You can read all about that on the interwebs.

Reification and objectification are not the same thing. Reification applies to abstract concepts. Objectification does not.

You used alienation correctly though, so congrats.

____Reification and objectification are not the same thing. Reification applies to abstract concepts. Objectification does not.

Uh, no. Not exclusively, at least.

You and #72 get props for the civility and the depth of the criticism, at any rate.

I agree that comment #70 was pretty awesome. I like listening to people talk about “carnal sins of the flesh” in the same way that I like reading Commie slogans that talk about “Death to the decadent bourgeoisie and their rabid lapdogs!” etc.

…the most basic and highest function is procreation

That’s true. So, if alcohol doesn’t help – try hormonal therapy.

-I like listening to people talk about “carnal sins of the flesh” in the same way that I like reading Commie slogans that talk about “Death to the decadent bourgeoisie and their rabid lapdogs!” etc.

The secular capitalist steps up to bat, I see. Too bad than you can’t appreciate that, without a core of family values, the free market is like a soulless automaton. The virus of fascism (or communism, which you so fear) infects it in short order, leading to a “system crash”.

For my part, I find it is instructive to listen to people’s lustful fantasies because there is an insidious agency, not of this world, that resonates in the bleats of the lost sheep. Make of that what you want.

-So yer just barracking from the stands then mate? You’re in more dire need of a ******* than any CT commentator in history.

Classy, real classy.

And what’s with this reluctance to use my web name, referring coyly to “comment #70” instead? Is this liberal “reverse prudishness”, that refuses every sentence from Scripture? A secular religion indeed, with vacuum cleaners as sacramental implements!

kevin #69,

You must be looking at a very old copy, stostosto; we’ve updated it to include “The inversion of the heterosexual paradigm and the destruction of the traditional family.”

Ah yes, I also don’t understand the hysteric anti-gay corner. What, the fact that gays too want to form families, even based on the conventional institution of marriage, somehow is an attack on traditional family values?

Looks more like the ultimate triumph for them, innit? Or, to paraphrase you: The inversion of the homosexual paradigm and the destruction of the traditional gay lifestyle.

stostosto @81,

Sorry for the sarcasm at your (or your last comment’s) expense; it puzzles me as well, that the same people who never fail to condemn the “homosexual lifestyle” (hedonism, promiscuity, and irresponsibility being the usual take) are equally horrified by any attempt to model a different lifestyle within that community, one built on tradition, commitment, and responsibility – among many other things.

That my ability to marry the partner of my choice (I live in Canada) somehow devalues someone else’s heterosexual relationship is something I have yet to be even partially convinced of.

That’s true. So, if alcohol doesn’t help – try hormonal therapy.

I’m not entirely sure whether abb1’s being sarcastic here (given the context, I suspect sarcasm).

But anyway, there is a strong hormonal component to sexual desire. There can be lots of reasons for lack of sexual desire: often it’s to do with problems in the relationship, but other times it’s a symptom of a medical problem. And if it’s a medical problem, leaving it untreated can be dangerous – you might be in for worse symptoms as the condition progresses.

Having said that, I am alarmed by the prospect of high/low sexual desire being medicalized. When loss of desire is just one symptom of a condition with lots of other bad effects, that’s one thing. But it’s a further step to regard high or low desire, on its own, as being a “disease”. With modern medicine, a person’s desire for sex can be altered, either up or down – but usually at the risk of hazardous side-effects. So there is an ethical dillema: if the problem is that the couple’s levels of desire are mismatched, who if, anyone, should be medically altered?

Clearly, most women do experience sexual desire at some point in their lives – so the idea that women don’t have sexual desires isn’t going to fly. But conversely, I think it may be wrong to expect women to have typical male levels of sexual desire. (One of the danger in that is that failiure to be as horny as guys might become medicalized)

(As for me, personally – I’m not in the mood to do anything all winter. But that’s because the lack of sunlight effects me very badly. I’d consider this a medical symptom, rather than try to claim any moral superiority).

I like listening to people talk about “carnal sins of the flesh” in the same way that I like reading Commie slogans that talk about “Death to the decadent bourgeoisie and their rabid lapdogs!” etc.

Those straw man “Commies” are still giving you a hard time, eh Radek?